PG: Knicks vs Jazz

[prophet_of_rage]

Is this the worst Knicks loss of the last 20 years?

No. Not even close.

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Yeah wtf … how could we forget those meaningless late season heroics by an unknown scrub whose name I have literally forgotten, who’d effectively ruin our lottery chances and not even make next year’s team iirc. Wasn’t it Trey Burke or even worse?

Compare that to Dallas purposely missing the playoffs in order to get in the lottery, drafting a rotational piece with what would’ve been our pick and going straight to the NBA Finals.

Or the entire Isiah era.

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[HEZI]

We are talking about the Boston game.

We shot terribly this game. That alone was probably the biggest reason we lost. No one is winning games shooting 39% no matter how good the defense was.

Overall though, most of our losses came from teams shooting lights out from three and short rotations. This cannot be lost in the discussion. People pointing fingers at Mikal or at KAT being a weak rim protector have very little to do with why we are losing MOST games.

We are simply too thin off the bench and, we are a new team trying to find chemistry more than anything else. That does not change the fact that we have been giving up too many open looks from three FOR YEARS though. Some of that is coaching/scheme and some is the personnel we have had.

We need to be patient and wait for the bench to get back before we can really figure out what the problems may actually be moving forward. I expect that alone will help us win more. Right now the two biggest reasons are what I mentioned above. It's not necessarily about rim protection or Mikal having shooting woes.

This just isn’t true though

Rockets shot 24% from 3 and we shot 39%

Hawks shot 39% and we shot better than them that game by a wide margin at 47% with 22 makes

Bulls shot 39% and that’s another game we shot better than the opponent

Cavs shot 33% and we were slightly worse at 32%

That’s 4 out of 7 losses where opponent outside shooting wasn’t the deciding factor. There have been a few other issues defensively and yes lack of paint protection is one of them. It’s not even just scheme related. You can switch all you want but when a guy will still get beat off the dribble on the switch it causes an issue. If you just allow guys to walk into the paint without resistance it’s an issue. If you struggle defending in the post it’s an issue. There have been a few issues actually and there’s enough blame to go all around.

I do agree that lack of depth doesn’t help especially when those guys could help you out defensively

AND short rotations. Lights out was the wrong term though. We have had a problem losing games where teams shot more threes and many were wide open for years. Not just this year. Or late in the game where threes count more than two point shots if they hit them at a decent clip. 39% is still a good percentage by the way. We can't leave teams wide open as much as we do. Not without an elite rim protector on top of it.

We are simply too thin. It's not Thibs fault outside of his willingness to make adjustments at times. We don't have enough depth to do much anyway. We could do better at keeping players fresh for the end of games though. It's not KATs rim protection costing us games by itself but he needs to be better. It's not Mikal having shooting issues all by itself but, he needa to be better. It's a combination of all of it.

Not having Deuce/Precious/Mitch is the biggest problem we have. They will help with all of the above. Period.

We have to be real about our personnel. We don’t have a good defensive team identity, there’s really only one good defender in OG who is not only good but elite but the rest are average at best and at least 1 is absolutely terrible. Expecting them to be anything more than average at best defensively as a unit is unrealistic. This is an offensive team with an offensive identity so they will certainly have to be a lot better offensively than last night to beat their opponent. But at the same time they can also be better defensively than they were last night. They have shown it but there is a middle ground. At least two guy in the starting lineup have to step up defensively and be much better than they have so far.

[spree2kawhi]

This just isn’t true though

Rockets shot 24% from 3 and we shot 39%

Hawks shot 39% and we shot better than them that game by a wide margin at 47% with 22 makes

Bulls shot 39% and that’s another game we shot better than the opponent

Cavs shot 33% and we were slightly worse at 32%

That’s 4 out of 7 losses where opponent outside shooting wasn’t the deciding factor. There have been a few other issues defensively and yes lack of paint protection is one of them. It’s not even just scheme related. You can switch all you want but when a guy will still get beat off the dribble on the switch it causes an issue. If you just allow guys to walk into the paint without resistance it’s an issue. If you struggle defending in the post it’s an issue. There have been a few issues actually and there’s enough blame to go all around.

I do agree that lack of depth doesn’t help especially when those guys could help you out defensively

AND short rotations. Lights out was the wrong term though. We have had a problem losing games where teams shot more threes and many were wide open for years. Not just this year. Or late in the game where threes count more than two point shots if they hit them at a decent clip. 39% is still a good percentage by the way. We can't leave teams wide open as much as we do. Not without an elite rim protector on top of it.

We are simply too thin. It's not Thibs fault outside of his willingness to make adjustments at times. We don't have enough depth to do much anyway. We could do better at keeping players fresh for the end of games though. It's not KATs rim protection costing us games by itself but he needs to be better. It's not Mikal having shooting issues all by itself but, he needa to be better. It's a combination of all of it.

Not having Deuce/Precious/Mitch is the biggest problem we have. They will help with all of the above. Period.

We have to be real about our personnel. We don’t have a good defensive team identity, there’s really only one good defender in OG who is not only good but elite but the rest are average at best and at least 1 is absolutely terrible. Expecting them to be anything more than average at best defensively as a unit is unrealistic. This is an offensive team with an offensive identity so they will certainly have to be a lot better offensively than last night to beat their opponent. But at the same time they can also be better defensively than they were last night. They have shown it but there is a middle ground. At least two guy in the starting lineup have to step up defensively and be much better than they have so far.

o if you want to leave out bridges, there are still McBride, Hart, Achiuwa, Robinson who can be plus defenders. Bridges certainly is a very good defender in my book though.

[Jalen Bluntson]

This just isn’t true though

Rockets shot 24% from 3 and we shot 39%

Hawks shot 39% and we shot better than them that game by a wide margin at 47% with 22 makes

Bulls shot 39% and that’s another game we shot better than the opponent

Cavs shot 33% and we were slightly worse at 32%

That’s 4 out of 7 losses where opponent outside shooting wasn’t the deciding factor. There have been a few other issues defensively and yes lack of paint protection is one of them. It’s not even just scheme related. You can switch all you want but when a guy will still get beat off the dribble on the switch it causes an issue. If you just allow guys to walk into the paint without resistance it’s an issue. If you struggle defending in the post it’s an issue. There have been a few issues actually and there’s enough blame to go all around.

I do agree that lack of depth doesn’t help especially when those guys could help you out defensively

AND short rotations. Lights out was the wrong term though. We have had a problem losing games where teams shot more threes and many were wide open for years. Not just this year. Or late in the game where threes count more than two point shots if they hit them at a decent clip. 39% is still a good percentage by the way. We can't leave teams wide open as much as we do. Not without an elite rim protector on top of it.

We are simply too thin. It's not Thibs fault outside of his willingness to make adjustments at times. We don't have enough depth to do much anyway. We could do better at keeping players fresh for the end of games though. It's not KATs rim protection costing us games by itself but he needs to be better. It's not Mikal having shooting issues all by itself but, he needa to be better. It's a combination of all of it.

Not having Deuce/Precious/Mitch is the biggest problem we have. They will help with all of the above. Period.

We have to be real about our personnel. We don’t have a good defensive team identity, there’s really only one good defender in OG who is not only good but elite but the rest are average at best and at least 1 is absolutely terrible. Expecting them to be anything more than average at best defensively as a unit is unrealistic. This is an offensive team with an offensive identity so they will certainly have to be a lot better offensively than last night to beat their opponent. But at the same time they can also be better defensively than they were last night. They have shown it but there is a middle ground. At least two guy in the starting lineup have to step up defensively and be much better than they have so far.

I have been real about everything all season. We don't have any defenders outside of OG/Mikal currently. Hart gives effort but he's got flaws. Brunson is usually undersized and weak. KAT sucks at the rim and in the scheme but, he has also shown to be decent in other areas.

We have three of our defensive players out for all or a lot of the season. How long has Deuce been out? A third of the season or more? No Mitch or Precious at all. What are talking about here? We could be better defensively if we had better defenders? Ya think? We could also try other things to make up for it as well but, that's another story. We can't funnel shooters into the paint with no one there to stop them. We shouldn't leave players wide open from three as often as we do either.

Bottom line, we need Deuce/Precious/Mitch back. That's all there is to it. We are too thin on defense and in general. We also can't change that without the players we are missing.

Patience is needed. The bench is needed. Thibs is a great coach but, his flaws are pretty big at times as well. I guarantee we play much better if we ever get healthy.

[3toheadmelo]

No version of Randle was gonna do anything about it either.

Knicks wouldn't be playing Randle at the 5.

Ohhh and btw even that nonsense was discussed publicly even by prominent team officials before the Towns trade. Imagine how badly we’d have sucked without KAT and both Achiuwa and Robinson out. LOL!

Imagine how badly we would suck with KAT at the 5.. oh wait.. we can't even beat Utah and Chicago with him. but hey Boston you hear that? Formidable.

[HEZI]

AND short rotations. Lights out was the wrong term though. We have had a problem losing games where teams shot more threes and many were wide open for years. Not just this year. Or late in the game where threes count more than two point shots if they hit them at a decent clip. 39% is still a good percentage by the way. We can't leave teams wide open as much as we do. Not without an elite rim protector on top of it.

We are simply too thin. It's not Thibs fault outside of his willingness to make adjustments at times. We don't have enough depth to do much anyway. We could do better at keeping players fresh for the end of games though. It's not KATs rim protection costing us games by itself but he needs to be better. It's not Mikal having shooting issues all by itself but, he needa to be better. It's a combination of all of it.

Not having Deuce/Precious/Mitch is the biggest problem we have. They will help with all of the above. Period.

We have to be real about our personnel. We don’t have a good defensive team identity, there’s really only one good defender in OG who is not only good but elite but the rest are average at best and at least 1 is absolutely terrible. Expecting them to be anything more than average at best defensively as a unit is unrealistic. This is an offensive team with an offensive identity so they will certainly have to be a lot better offensively than last night to beat their opponent. But at the same time they can also be better defensively than they were last night. They have shown it but there is a middle ground. At least two guy in the starting lineup have to step up defensively and be much better than they have so far.

I have been real about everything all season. We don't have any defenders outside of OG/Mikal currently. Hart gives effort but he's got flaws. Brunson is usually undersized and weak. KAT sucks at the rim and in the scheme but, he has also shown to be decent in other areas.

We have three of our defensive players out for all or a lot of the season. How long has Deuce been out? A third of the season or more? No Mitch or Precious at all. What are talking about here? We could be better defensively if we had better defenders? Ya think? We could also try other things to make up for it as well but, that's another story. We can't funnel shooters into the paint with no one there to stop them. We shouldn't leave players wide open from three as often as we do either.

Bottom line, we need Deuce/Precious/Mitch back. That's all there is to it. We are too thin on defense and in general. We also can't change that without the players we are missing.

Patience is needed. The bench is needed. Thibs is a great coach but, his flaws are pretty big at times as well. I guarantee we play much better if we ever get healthy.

Mikal has not been good on defense though. I know he was brought in and expected to be a good defender but he hasn’t been. He’s struggled defending but he’s one guy I expect to be better and step it up on that end of the floor.

[HarthorneWingo]

[JayTWill]

Knicks wouldn't be playing Randle at the 5.

Ohhh and btw even that nonsense was discussed publicly even by prominent team officials before the Towns trade. Imagine how badly we’d have sucked without KAT and both Achiuwa and Robinson out. LOL!

Imagine how badly we would suck with KAT at the 5.. oh wait.. we can't even beat Utah and Chicago with him. but hey Boston you hear that? Formidable.

Remember this summer when you were saying R***** at the 5 was the answer to beating the Celtics

[prophet_of_rage]

We have to be real about our personnel. We don’t have a good defensive team identity, there’s really only one good defender in OG who is not only good but elite but the rest are average at best and at least 1 is absolutely terrible. Expecting them to be anything more than average at best defensively as a unit is unrealistic. This is an offensive team with an offensive identity so they will certainly have to be a lot better offensively than last night to beat their opponent. But at the same time they can also be better defensively than they were last night. They have shown it but there is a middle ground. At least two guy in the starting lineup have to step up defensively and be much better than they have so far.

I have been real about everything all season. We don't have any defenders outside of OG/Mikal currently. Hart gives effort but he's got flaws. Brunson is usually undersized and weak. KAT sucks at the rim and in the scheme but, he has also shown to be decent in other areas.

We have three of our defensive players out for all or a lot of the season. How long has Deuce been out? A third of the season or more? No Mitch or Precious at all. What are talking about here? We could be better defensively if we had better defenders? Ya think? We could also try other things to make up for it as well but, that's another story. We can't funnel shooters into the paint with no one there to stop them. We shouldn't leave players wide open from three as often as we do either.

Bottom line, we need Deuce/Precious/Mitch back. That's all there is to it. We are too thin on defense and in general. We also can't change that without the players we are missing.

Patience is needed. The bench is needed. Thibs is a great coach but, his flaws are pretty big at times as well. I guarantee we play much better if we ever get healthy.

Mikal has not been good on defense though. I know he was brought in and expected to be a good defender but he hasn’t been. He’s struggled defending but he’s one guy I expect to be better and step it up on that end of the floor.

Mikal's defence is based on reputation pre-Nets trade. Because the Nets sucked his defensive fall off was ignored. We're seeing in real time he is no longer the defendernhe was. That is most likelynwhy he was availableninnthe forstbplace. I suspect Mikal lost a step and Brooklyn got out ahead of it.

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[Jalen Bluntson]

We have to be real about our personnel. We don’t have a good defensive team identity, there’s really only one good defender in OG who is not only good but elite but the rest are average at best and at least 1 is absolutely terrible. Expecting them to be anything more than average at best defensively as a unit is unrealistic. This is an offensive team with an offensive identity so they will certainly have to be a lot better offensively than last night to beat their opponent. But at the same time they can also be better defensively than they were last night. They have shown it but there is a middle ground. At least two guy in the starting lineup have to step up defensively and be much better than they have so far.

I have been real about everything all season. We don't have any defenders outside of OG/Mikal currently. Hart gives effort but he's got flaws. Brunson is usually undersized and weak. KAT sucks at the rim and in the scheme but, he has also shown to be decent in other areas.

We have three of our defensive players out for all or a lot of the season. How long has Deuce been out? A third of the season or more? No Mitch or Precious at all. What are talking about here? We could be better defensively if we had better defenders? Ya think? We could also try other things to make up for it as well but, that's another story. We can't funnel shooters into the paint with no one there to stop them. We shouldn't leave players wide open from three as often as we do either.

Bottom line, we need Deuce/Precious/Mitch back. That's all there is to it. We are too thin on defense and in general. We also can't change that without the players we are missing.

Patience is needed. The bench is needed. Thibs is a great coach but, his flaws are pretty big at times as well. I guarantee we play much better if we ever get healthy.

Mikal has not been good on defense though. I know he was brought in and expected to be a good defender but he hasn’t been. He’s struggled defending but he’s one guy I expect to be better and step it up on that end of the floor.

He's been up and down. I think everything will look better when we have a full bench and more time together. This is all brand new. We aren't worse than last season as a result of the moves we have made so far. We just aren't the same team.

Things will take time and we are missing most of our defensive players. New guys trying to learn things. Old guys trying to find their groove with the new guys. It's not gonna be a well oiled machine out of the gate and we are still in the top 4 in the conference. Once we get rolling we hopefully don't have too much ground to ,make up. The injuries are really hurting us more than anything else IMO.

Stay in the playoff hunt and be healthy come playoffs. That's all I care about. We need to make the ECF at a bare minimum though. At some point in the near future we need to make the finals. We are locked in to this core for the foreseeable future basically. They need to prove it's the right core or make whatever moves it takes to win a title. We haven't been this close in 25 years. Let's hope we get over the hump.

[Capn'O]

No. Not even close.

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Yeah wtf … how could we forget those meaningless late season heroics by an unknown scrub whose name I have literally forgotten, who’d effectively ruin our lottery chances and not even make next year’s team iirc. Wasn’t it Trey Burke or even worse?

Compare that to Dallas purposely missing the playoffs in order to get in the lottery, drafting a rotational piece with what would’ve been our pick and going straight to the NBA Finals.

Or the entire Isiah era.

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I attended a 50 point blowout in Boston. Considering the loot I dropped on that one I'd say it was far worse.

[3toheadmelo]

Yeah wtf … how could we forget those meaningless late season heroics by an unknown scrub whose name I have literally forgotten, who’d effectively ruin our lottery chances and not even make next year’s team iirc. Wasn’t it Trey Burke or even worse?

Compare that to Dallas purposely missing the playoffs in order to get in the lottery, drafting a rotational piece with what would’ve been our pick and going straight to the NBA Finals.

Or the entire Isiah era.

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I attended a 50 point blowout in Boston. Considering the loot I dropped on that one I'd say it was far worse.

Hold up are you talking about this game

Watch on YouTube

;t=170s

[Capn'O]

Or the entire Isiah era.

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I attended a 50 point blowout in Boston. Considering the loot I dropped on that one I'd say it was far worse.

Hold up are you talking about this game

Watch on YouTube

;t=170s

Probably? There were two really bad ones around that time.

[Jalen Bluntson]

I have been real about everything all season. We don't have any defenders outside of OG/Mikal currently. Hart gives effort but he's got flaws. Brunson is usually undersized and weak. KAT sucks at the rim and in the scheme but, he has also shown to be decent in other areas.

We have three of our defensive players out for all or a lot of the season. How long has Deuce been out? A third of the season or more? No Mitch or Precious at all. What are talking about here? We could be better defensively if we had better defenders? Ya think? We could also try other things to make up for it as well but, that's another story. We can't funnel shooters into the paint with no one there to stop them. We shouldn't leave players wide open from three as often as we do either.

Bottom line, we need Deuce/Precious/Mitch back. That's all there is to it. We are too thin on defense and in general. We also can't change that without the players we are missing.

Patience is needed. The bench is needed. Thibs is a great coach but, his flaws are pretty big at times as well. I guarantee we play much better if we ever get healthy.

Mikal has not been good on defense though. I know he was brought in and expected to be a good defender but he hasn’t been. He’s struggled defending but he’s one guy I expect to be better and step it up on that end of the floor.

Mikal's defence is based on reputation pre-Nets trade. Because the Nets sucked his defensive fall off was ignored. We're seeing in real time he is no longer the defendernhe was. That is most likelynwhy he was availableninnthe forstbplace. I suspect Mikal lost a step and Brooklyn got out ahead of it.

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Wow. That's some bold take. Mikal is no longer a good defender after one season removed from Phoenix? Not that he's on a new team with a new scheme? He fell off last year and Brooklyn was wise enough to get rid of him? Not that Brooklyn just sucks? Brooklyn hasn't made a wise move in years.

Maybe he was overrated to begin with. Maybe he is adjusting to his role on a new team. Maybe you're right and he can't play defense anymore. I would suggest some patience given the situation.

[KnixinSix]

Mikal has not been good on defense though. I know he was brought in and expected to be a good defender but he hasn’t been. He’s struggled defending but he’s one guy I expect to be better and step it up on that end of the floor.

Mikal's defence is based on reputation pre-Nets trade. Because the Nets sucked his defensive fall off was ignored. We're seeing in real time he is no longer the defendernhe was. That is most likelynwhy he was availableninnthe forstbplace. I suspect Mikal lost a step and Brooklyn got out ahead of it.

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Wow. That's some bold take. Mikal is no longer a good defender after one season removed from Phoenix? Not that he's on a new team with a new scheme? He fell off last year and Brooklyn was wise enough to get rid of him? Not that Brooklyn just sucks? Brooklyn hasn't made a wise move in years.

Maybe he was overrated to begin with. Maybe he is adjusting to his role on a new team. Maybe you're right and he can't play defense anymore. I would suggest some patience given the situation.

He has a lot going on mentally right now is what it seems to me.

I highly doubt he lost the ability to be a good defender when he has been a very good one basically his entire career.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Mikal's defence is based on reputation pre-Nets trade. Because the Nets sucked his defensive fall off was ignored. We're seeing in real time he is no longer the defendernhe was. That is most likelynwhy he was availableninnthe forstbplace. I suspect Mikal lost a step and Brooklyn got out ahead of it.

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Wow. That's some bold take. Mikal is no longer a good defender after one season removed from Phoenix? Not that he's on a new team with a new scheme? He fell off last year and Brooklyn was wise enough to get rid of him? Not that Brooklyn just sucks? Brooklyn hasn't made a wise move in years.

Maybe he was overrated to begin with. Maybe he is adjusting to his role on a new team. Maybe you're right and he can't play defense anymore. I would suggest some patience given the situation.

He has a lot going on mentally right now is what it seems to me.

I highly doubt he lost the ability to be a good defender when he has been a very good one basically his entire career.

Yeah. It's fair to say he has been playing poorly for what we paid and what people expected. To say he is no longer a good defender and no one saw it until now? Ok. Mighty bold statement. Things will get better. I can't see how we get worse. We have talent coming back eventually. It's gonna be up and down until then.

[nedleeds]

If it weren't for the Nets and Wizards we'd be the Pistons. 30th in pace with a team that sucks on D. Some of you clowns still think this coach shouldn't be fired. No picks and capped out for 10 years.

[prophet_of_rage]

It is actually verybeasy to go from being a great defender to a poor one. You lose one step. Your motor doesn't rev as high.

We can all see that Mikal's on ball defence hasn't travelled. That isn't a product of scheme. The Knicks overall poor defence is putting poor personnel into an ill-syited scheme.

But Mikal is not containing ball handlers nor really slowing cutters and is not providing help at the rim.

It is what it is. The Kni ks will have a lot od good daya but they have big exploitable holes that big teams will crush them with for now.

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[Jalen Bluntson]

If it weren't for the Nets and Wizards we'd be the Pistons. 30th in pace with a team that sucks on D. Some of you clowns still think this coach shouldn't be fired. No picks and capped out for 10 years.

yeah man. Doomed!

[TheGreenArrow]

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Won’t watch tomorrow’s game either if he’s out folksssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!