Sweater Vest Thread #11: Magic 111 - Pistons 100

[Knightro]

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2024-2025 Season Standings (3-2-1 scale)
Franz Wagner - 25
Anthony Black - 8
Paolo Banchero - 6
Jalen Suggs - 6
Moritz Wagner - 5
Jonathan Isaac - 4
Goga Bitadze - 4
Gary Harris - 2

Vests
Franz Wagner - 8 (v. BKN, v. NOP, v. WAS, v. CHA, v. IND, v. PHL, at PHX, at LAL)
Paolo Banchero - 2 (at MIA, v. IND)

Cummerbunds
Jalen Suggs - 3 (v. IND, v. CHA, at LAL)
Jonathan Isaac - 2 (v. IND, v. PHL)
Anthony Black - 2 (v. NOP, at PHX)
Gary Harris - 1 (at MIA)
Moritz Wagner - 1 (v. BKN)
Goga Bitadze - 1 (v. WAS)

Mittens
Anthony Black - 4 (v. BKN, v. IND, v. WAS, v. IND)
Moritz Wagner - 3 (v. CHA, v. PHL, at LAL)
Goga Bitadze - 2 (v. NOP, at PHX)
Franz Wagner - 1 (at MIA)



2023-2024 Season Standings (3-2-1 Scale)
Paolo Banchero - 84
Franz Wagner - 62
Jalen Suggs - 45
Cole Anthony - 20
Jonathan Isaac - 19
Moritz Wagner - 16
Wendell Carter - 12
Goga Bitadze - 8
Anthony Black - 6
Joe Ingles - 3
Gary Harris - 2
Caleb Houstan - 2
Markelle Fultz - 2
Chuma Okeke - 1

2023-2024 Vests
Paolo Banchero - 19 (at UTA, v. LAL, v. MIL, at CHI, v. WAS, v. DET, at IND, at DEN, v. ATL, v. MIA, at SAS, v. NYK, v. UTA, v. DET, v. BKN, v. TOR, v. NOP, at NOP, v. MIL)
Franz Wagner - 9 (v. DEN, v. WAS, at WAS, v. NYK, at DET, v. SAS, v. CHI, v. BKN, at WAS)
Jalen Suggs - 7 (at IND, v. TOR, v. CLE, at DET, at TOR, v. CHA, v. CHI)
Cole Anthony - 4 (v. HOU, v. CHA, at NYK, at CHA)
Jonathan Isaac - 3 (at CHI, v. PHX, at MIN)
Moritz Wagner - 3 (at POR, v. BOS, at CLE)
Wendell Carter Jr - 2 (v. MEM, v. POR)

2023-2024 Cummerbunds
Franz Wagner - 15 (at POR, at UTA, at CHI, v. CHA, v. WAS, v. DET, at IND, v. MIA, at SAS, at MIN, v. NYK, at TOR, v. TOR, at NOP, v. MIL)
Paolo Banchero - 11 (at IND, v. TOR, v. DEN, v. BOS, at NYK, at DET, v. SAS, at DET, at WAS, v. MEM, v. CHI)
Jalen Suggs - 8 (v. MIL, v. WAS, v. NYK, at DEN, at UTA, v. BKN, v. NOP, v. POR)
Anthony Black - 3 (v. LAL, at WAS, at CHA)
Goga Bitadze - 2 (at CHI, v. CLE)
Jonathan Isaac - 2 (v. HOU, v. CHI)
Moritz Wagner - 2 (v. PHX, v. BKN)
Cole Anthony - 2 (at CLE, v. CHA)
Caleb Houstan - 1 (v. ATL)
Wendell Carter Jr. - 1 (v. DET)

2023-2024 Mittens
Jalen Suggs - 8 (at POR, v. WAS, v. ATL, at DET, v. SAS, at WAS, v. TOR, v. MEM)
Jonathan Isaac - 6 (at CHI, at SAS, v. NYK, v. BKN, at TOR, v. MIL)
Paolo Banchero - 5 (v. CHA, at WAS, v. PHX, at CHA, v. CHA)
Franz Wagner - 5 (v. HOU, v. MIL, v. BOS, v. NOP, v. POR)
Goga Bitadze - 4 (v. LAL, at IND, v. DET, v. NYK)
Cole Anthony - 4 (v. TOR, v. WAS, at DEN, v. CHI)
Wendell Carter Jr - 4 (at UTH, v. MIA, at MIN, v. BKN)
Joe Ingles - 3 (v. DEN, v. CLE, at CLE)
Mortiz Wagner - 3 (at DET, v. UTA, at NOP)
Gary Harris - 2 (at CHI, at IND)
Markelle Fultz - 2 (v. DET, v. CHI)
Chuma Okeke - 1 (at NYK)

[Knightro]

Vest - Franz
Cummerbund - Isaac
Mittens - Moritz

[RichCollab]

Franz
JI
Moe

[eyriq]

Vest: Franz
Cummerbund: Moe
Mittens: JI

[eyriq]

Momentum building

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?t=TPTE0VCSanMi02d3bMxhkg&s=19

[SOUL]

Franz
Isaac (needed his defense)
Moe

[Audi]

Wagner Jr
Wagner Sr
Preacher

[jezzerinho]

Franz
Moe
AB

[Last Guardian]

Franz
JI
Moe

[drsd]

F-Wagner for another All-star quality game
M-Wagner for (another) huge scoring outburst, and huge assist/TO line!
Black for a rally balanced box-score, high assist line, and a game-high plus/minus


Lollipops to: da Silva (really solid lunch-pail game), Isaac for defense and much-needed rebounding, Harris (also for a great lunch-pail game), and Mr. Howard. This was probably Howard's career game so far. Without his stats, Orlando loses this game.

[Knightro]

This was probably Howard's career game so far. Without his stats, Orlando loses this game.

This is a bizarre thing to say.

Franz didn’t even play in the 4th quarter and almost all of Jett’s stats came in what amounted to an extended garbage time stretch over the final 12 minutes.

[drsd]

This was probably Howard's career game so far. Without his stats, Orlando loses this game.

This is a bizarre thing to say.

Howard's previous 10+ games were in losses. This is his first 10+ game where the Magic won. So: not that weird.

Franz didn’t even play in the 4th quarter and almost all of Jett’s stats came in what amounted to an extended garbage time stretch over the final 12 minutes.

This is objectively false for me

Howard played in the second when the team went on a 6-0 run (hitting his FG in that mini-run) taking the game from 36-31 to 42-31. And then in the 4th, with the game at 88-81, Howard was part of the 15-0 run that ended the game.
That is, this was not "extended garbage time" from my perspective. Howard was on the court when the team held Detroit without a single point for 6 minutes and 32 seconds. Even if you want to call that "scrub time", that was fantastic defense.


With the game "over", Howard did stay in to pair with the scrubs. And the team kind of sucked then. But: whatever.

So: Howard's role was useful in this win, in my opinion. Especially in the first-half of the 4th quarter.

[Knightro]

This was probably Howard's career game so far. Without his stats, Orlando loses this game.

This is a bizarre thing to say.

Howard's previous 10+ games were in losses. This is his first 10+ game where the Magic won. So: not that weird.

Franz didn’t even play in the 4th quarter and almost all of Jett’s stats came in what amounted to an extended garbage time stretch over the final 12 minutes.

This is objectively false for me

Howard played in the second when the team went on a 6-0 run (hitting his FG in that mini-run) taking the game from 36-31 to 42-31. And then in the 4th, with the game at 88-81, Howard was part of the 15-0 run that ended the game.
That is, this was not "extended garbage time" from my perspective. Howard was on the court when the team held Detroit without a single point for 6 minutes and 32 seconds. Even if you want to call that "scrub time", that was fantastic defense.


With the game "over", Howard did stay in to pair with the scrubs. And the team kind of sucked then. But: whatever.

So: Howard's role was useful in this win, in my opinion. Especially in the first-half of the 4th quarter.

I don't want to get into a whole thing with you about this.

All I will say is that I think you often intentionally take a contrarian stance to the rest of the board. And that's cool.

But Jett played 3 minutes total in the first three quarters, came into the game in the 4th quarter with the team already up 9 and played the entire quarter where the team won it by 2.

There was nothing about Jett's game where anyone, except you, could reasonably say "the Magic wouldn't have won without Jett's contribution" when it's just basically not at all an accurate thing to say.

[drsd]

All I will say is that I think you often intentionally take a contrarian stance to the rest of the board. And that's cool.

Respectfully, all I said was "this is arguably Howard's best ever game." I am not comparing his performance to other players. My view is that he had a decent game in a win. Those two things have never happened together before. (all his past decent box-score games were in loses; i.e. scrub time).

In the end, we are both happy with the W; and I stand by my view that Howard deserves a lollipop for his performance here!

[Knightro]

All I will say is that I think you often intentionally take a contrarian stance to the rest of the board. And that's cool.

Respectfully, all I said was "this is arguably Howard's best ever game." I am not comparing his performance to other players. My view is that he had a decent game in a win. Those two things have never happened together before. (all his past decent box-score games were in loses; i.e. scrub time).

In the end, we are both happy with the W; and I stand by my view that Howard deserves a lollipop for his performance here!

All valid points, and none of which I disagree with at all.

But respectfully, your exact words were also “Without his stats, Orlando loses this game” which to me felt like a bit of an interesting thing to say as a definitive statement considering they quite literally won by a larger margin of points than Howard himself scored and by a larger margin than Howard recorded positively in the plus/minus.

Being happy that a guy contributed positively in a victory is great. I’m happy about that as well.

But it seems like a stretch to not even suggest, but to outright say the Magic wouldn’t have won at all without Jett’s contribution.

[drsd]

But respectfully, your exact words were also “Without his stats, Orlando loses this game” which to me felt like a bit of an interesting thing to say as a definitive statement considering they quite literally won by a larger margin of points than Howard himself scored and by a larger margin than Howard recorded positively in the plus/minus.

Being happy that a guy contributed positively in a victory is great. I’m happy about that as well.

But it seems like a stretch to not even suggest, but to outright say the Magic wouldn’t have won at all without Jett’s contribution.

I think Howard was the 7th most important Magician in this game. Clearly: Without the top-6 doing their things, Orlando DOES lose this game. My point is that Howard was on the cusp of also being "required" in this win. Not that his role was the most important.

[Knightro]

I think Howard was the 7th most important Magician in this game. Clearly: Without the top-6 doing their things, Orlando DOES lose this game. My point is that Howard was on the cusp of also being "required" in this win. Not that his role was the most important.

Again, all of this is completely fine and totally reasonable. And I don’t disagree with any of it.

But it just isn’t what you said originally. You didn’t say “Jett’s performance was on the cusp of being required to win” you directly said they wouldn’t have won without him.

Now that I’ve pushed back on that part specifically, you’ve moved the goal posts a little bit to a “he was very close to being required in the win” which is quite different from what you originally said.

That’s all.

[Knightro]

Vest No. 11 Results

Vest - Franz Wagner
Cummerbund - Moritz Wagner (1 1st place, 3 2nd place, 4 3rd place = 13 points)
Mittens - Jonathan Isaac (0 1st place, 4 2nd place, 1 3rd place = 9 points)

[Knightro]

2024-2025 Season Standings (3-2-1 scale)
Franz Wagner - 28
Anthony Black - 8
Moritz Wagner - 7
Paolo Banchero - 6
Jalen Suggs - 6
Jonathan Isaac - 5
Goga Bitadze - 4
Gary Harris - 2

Vests
Franz Wagner - 9 (v. BKN, v. NOP, v. WAS, v. CHA, v. IND, v. PHL, at PHX, at LAL, v. DET)
Paolo Banchero - 2 (at MIA, v. IND)

Cummerbunds
Jalen Suggs - 3 (v. IND, v. CHA, at LAL)
Jonathan Isaac - 2 (v. IND, v. PHL)
Anthony Black - 2 (v. NOP, at PHX)
Moritz Wagner - 2 (v. BKN, v. DET)
Gary Harris - 1 (at MIA)
Goga Bitadze - 1 (v. WAS)

Mittens
Anthony Black - 4 (v. BKN, v. IND, v. WAS, v. IND)
Moritz Wagner - 3 (v. CHA, v. PHL, at LAL)
Goga Bitadze - 2 (v. NOP, at PHX)
Franz Wagner - 1 (at MIA)
Jonathan Isaac - 1 (v. DET)

[JoshuaPotter]

Egads, am I really seeing AB 2nd in vest points?