Can we safely say Jokic is the best offensive player ever?

[Sweet Serenity]

lol at anyone thinking Steph has ever been on the same level as this version of Jokic

[Jamaaliver]

How does he do against AD, Giannis, Gobert, Draymond, Embiid, Bam, Wemby, etc? The answer is he dominates them just like he does against everyone.

IDK

A three game in 4 nights against Hakeem in Houston, Duncan & Robinson in San Antonio and then Prime Shaq and the defending Champion Lakers in LA would be slightly more daunting than 6'6" Draymond, 6'9" Bam or a teenaged Victor Wembanyama.

There are very few uber-talented, 7 foot, 260+ pound Centers in today's NBA to challenge Jokic.
Most guys are either undersized or just not talented enough.
That fact undeniably plays a role in Jokic's dominance.

[jbsays]

Very, very nice players. But Smits was a career 15/6 player who made one All-Star team, never averaged 20 and rates out as a negative defensive player for his career per DBPM. What exactly was he going to do to slow down Jokic?

Let Dale Davis or Antonio Davis cover him?
Pacers also had Sam Perkins for awhile. He was on of the first bigs to shoot 3s, albeit not look bigs of today.

I do think 90s had some solid big defenders though. Oakley/Ewing in NY, Rodman, David Robinson, Mutumbo, Mourning, Karl Malone, Olajuwon, Shawn Bradley (could block some shots) and later on Duncan.

But as I have said, nearly impossible to compare players from different eras as the game has evolved throughout the decades.

[jbsays]

How does he do against AD, Giannis, Gobert, Draymond, Embiid, Bam, Wemby, etc? The answer is he dominates them just like he does against everyone.

IDK

A three game in 4 nights against Hakeem in Houston, Duncan & Robinson in San Antonio and then Prime Shaq and the defending Champion Lakers in LA would be slightly more daunting than 6'6" Draymond, 6'9" Bam or a teenaged Victor Wembanyama.

There are very few uber-talented, 7 foot, 260+ pound Centers in today's NBA to challenge Jokic.
Most guys are either undersized or just not talented enough.
That fact undeniably plays a role in Jokic's dominance.

While I saw it's hard to compare players from different eras, I think the above shows Jokic's dominance. There are very few people to challenge him because he is so good. Just like all the greats before him Jokic is better than his peers. We'll never know how he'd fare in 90s NBA.

[Sedale Threatt]

Jokic is one of the best ever.

No argument there.

Is he the singular best offensive player ever?
IDK

For one thing, offensive numbers are inflated in this modern era. There's no disputing that fact.

Also, I suspect that a part of Jokic's dominance is that he doesn't have many peers at his size/position to challenge him on either end of the court.

Could Jokic average these numbers in a league where he had to face off against:

• Kareem,
• Hakeem,
• Robert Parish,
• Bill Walton,
• Pat Ewing,
• David Robinson,
• Shaquille,
• Tim Duncan,
• Dikembe,
• or Ben Wallace every week?

It's really hard to say...

This argument is just crazy to me. As if there’s no good big men now so we just have to say “Idk it’s impossible to say! We just don’t know how he’d do!” Also the implicit assumption that “back in my day” players used to only play against the likes Kareem, Walton, Shaq, Robinson, Wallace, etc. Go back and look at a list of centers in any of the eras you mentioned. It’s a list of about 25 nobodies and 3-4 greats, which is exactly what we have today, and exactly how it’s always been throughout NBA history.

How does he do against AD, Giannis, Gobert, Draymond, Embiid, Bam, Wemby, etc? The answer is he dominates them just like he does against everyone.

Allen/Mobley combo. Porzingis. Towns. Lopez. Capela. Turner. Vucevic. Holmgren. Sengun. Zubac. Jackson. Nurkic. Reid. Sabonis. Gafford/Washington/Lively combo.

To be clear, because of poor defense or age or fragility or whatever, some of these guys are stretches. But if we're throwing out names like Smits and Seikaly and Divac to prop up their respective eras, I have no problem including most of them as well. Because your point stands about there usually being a small core of true elites and largely nobodies in any given season.

These debates come up frequently, to the point I actually did go through full rosters for the 96-97 or 97-98 seasons once to refresh my memory on the 4s and 5s. It was appalling. Three of the four division winners started Greg Ostertag, Jim McIlvaine and Luc Longley. For every Tim Duncan you had three or four Felton Spencers.

People just get blinded by nostalgia. Which, to be fair, is easy to do when you're as top-heavy as the 90s were. But still. People forget just how bad some of these dudes were. I'm still scarred from having to watch Sean Rooks for three seasons.

[Sedale Threatt]

Let Dale Davis or Antonio Davis cover him?

Well yeah. (And Shaq still shot 66% in their ECF win.) Which is kind of the whole point. Why even bring somebody like Smits up?

[nikster]

Also, I suspect that a part of Jokic's dominance is that he doesn't have many peers at his size/position to challenge him on either end of the court.

Could Jokic average these numbers in a league where he had to face off against:

• Kareem,
• Hakeem,
• Robert Parish,
• Bill Walton,
• Pat Ewing,
• David Robinson,
• Shaquille,
• Tim Duncan,
• Dikembe,
• or Ben Wallace every week?

It's really hard to say...

Noone ever had to do this. Kareem retired when Ben Wallace was 15 and Duncan was 13. Walton retired even earlier and was mostly injured througout the 80s.

And it's not like Jordan or Bird for example had to face elite defenders every week either. Even Bill Simmons, a huge Bird fanboy, states in his Book of Basketball:

The dirty little secret of Bird’s success: fantastic timing. His heyday (1980–88) coincided with the last generation of all-offense/no-defense forwards (Dantley, English, etc.), and that’s not counting all the fringe swingmen (Ernie Grunfeld, Gene Banks, etc.) and clumsy power forwards (Kent Benson, Ben Poquette, etc.) torched by Bird on a routine basis.

Jordan always faced great defenders.

Moncrief
DJ
Payton
Dumars
Rodman
Cheeks
Robertson
Cooper
Blaylock
Maxwell
Starks
McMIllan

While also having elite rim protection behind them all.

I said this before in this same thread, but there was so little overlap in those players when people come up with these lists.

When you look at post season its ridiclous. MJ never faced Cooper or Maxwell in the playoffs. Played Moncrief once and lost. Played Payton and Mcmillan once (and at that point Mcmillan was playing 13 mpg in the finals). Cheeks played him once at the age of 34. That's 6 guys you listed that MJ combined to beat once in their primes.

And in a thread where people are dismissing Rudy Gobert as a post defender against Jokic, you want to list Mooke Blaylock, a 6'0 180 pound point guard, as a good defender for MJ.

Id be impressed if someone for once actually picked a specific season where they thought MJ, or other historical players, faced a lot of tough defenders.

[Jamaaliver]

Let Dale Davis or Antonio Davis cover him?
Pacers also had Sam Perkins for awhile. He was on of the first bigs to shoot 3s, albeit not look bigs of today.

I do think 90s had some solid big defenders though. Oakley/Ewing in NY, Rodman, David Robinson, Mutumbo, Mourning, Karl Malone, Olajuwon, Shawn Bradley (could block some shots) and later on Duncan.

But as I have said, nearly impossible to compare players from different eras as the game has evolved throughout the decades.

Brother, you ain't kidding. The Davis boys were undersized, but as tough as they come.

Rodman and Malone would have gotten under Jokic's skin.

I'd love to see Prime Jokic face off in a playoff series against each of Yao, Shaq, and then Tim Duncan.



Tim Duncan would have probably been the greatest skilled big man Jokic would ever face.

[dhsilv2]

Noone ever had to do this. Kareem retired when Ben Wallace was 15 and Duncan was 13. Walton retired even earlier and was mostly injured througout the 80s.

And it's not like Jordan or Bird for example had to face elite defenders every week either. Even Bill Simmons, a huge Bird fanboy, states in his Book of Basketball:

Jordan always faced great defenders.

Moncrief
DJ
Payton
Dumars
Rodman
Cheeks
Robertson
Cooper
Blaylock
Maxwell
Starks
McMIllan

While also having elite rim protection behind them all.

I said this before in this same thread, but there was so little overlap in those players when people come up with these lists.

When you look at post season its ridiclous. MJ never faced Cooper or Maxwell in the playoffs. Played Moncrief once and lost. Played Payton and Mcmillan once (and at that point Mcmillan was playing 13 mpg in the finals). Cheeks played him once at the age of 34. That's 6 guys you listed that MJ combined to beat once in their primes.

And in a thread where people are dismissing Rudy Gobert as a post defender against Jokic, you want to list Mooke Blaylock, a 6'0 180 pound point guard, as a good defender for MJ.

Id be impressed if someone for once actually picked a specific season where they thought MJ, or other historical players, faced a lot of tough defenders.

I think he was joking. That said...Blaylock was legit a freaking elite defender in his time! A top 10 non big man defender at his peak isn't an insane argument, if it's relative to the league.

Also...didn't know I was going here but "mic drop"...90's defense was overrated.

[jbsays]

Let Dale Davis or Antonio Davis cover him?

Well yeah. (And Shaq still shot 66% in their ECF win.) Which is kind of the whole point. Why even bring somebody like Smits up?

Shaq was a completely different player than Jokic though. Shaq was like a running back whose athleticism allowed him to overpower anybody. Jokic is like a QB who picks apart a defense.

Smits was a solid big for his era though. Definitely not in same tier as Shaq, Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, or even Mourning (IMO).

[dhsilv2]

Let Dale Davis or Antonio Davis cover him?
Pacers also had Sam Perkins for awhile. He was on of the first bigs to shoot 3s, albeit not look bigs of today.

I do think 90s had some solid big defenders though. Oakley/Ewing in NY, Rodman, David Robinson, Mutumbo, Mourning, Karl Malone, Olajuwon, Shawn Bradley (could block some shots) and later on Duncan.

But as I have said, nearly impossible to compare players from different eras as the game has evolved throughout the decades.

Brother, you ain't kidding. The Davis boys were undersized, but as tough as they come.

Rodman and Malone would have gotten under Jokic's skin.

I'd love to see Prime Jokic face off in a playoff series against each of Yao, Shaq, and then Tim Duncan.



Tim Duncan would have probably been the greatest skilled big man Jokic would ever face.

Jokic might just punch out rodman. Not sure Malone would get under his skin. If anything he'd get under Malone's. Malone was thin skinned.

[nikster]

Jordan always faced great defenders.

Moncrief
DJ
Payton
Dumars
Rodman
Cheeks
Robertson
Cooper
Blaylock
Maxwell
Starks
McMIllan

While also having elite rim protection behind them all.

I said this before in this same thread, but there was so little overlap in those players when people come up with these lists.

When you look at post season its ridiclous. MJ never faced Cooper or Maxwell in the playoffs. Played Moncrief once and lost. Played Payton and Mcmillan once (and at that point Mcmillan was playing 13 mpg in the finals). Cheeks played him once at the age of 34. That's 6 guys you listed that MJ combined to beat once in their primes.

And in a thread where people are dismissing Rudy Gobert as a post defender against Jokic, you want to list Mooke Blaylock, a 6'0 180 pound point guard, as a good defender for MJ.

Id be impressed if someone for once actually picked a specific season where they thought MJ, or other historical players, faced a lot of tough defenders.

I think he was joking. That said...Blaylock was legit a freaking elite defender in his time! A top 10 non big man defender at his peak isn't an insane argument, if it's relative to the league.

Also...didn't know I was going here but "mic drop"...90's defense was overrated.

If it was a joke, its hard to tell

And I'm not saying Baylock wasn't an elite defender, so is Gobert. But if people are gonna dismiss Gobert, a 7'1 DPOY, as a poor post matchup because of his strength I don't see how you can make a case for Baylock being a tougher matchup for MJ.

[jbsays]

I do think prior eras are getting a little underrated in this thread.

But, I will say Jordan may have never played against the best perimeter defender of his era because that guy (Scottie Pippen) was on his team.

[Jamaaliver]

Jokic might just punch out rodman. Not sure Malone would get under his skin. If anything he'd get under Malone's. Malone was thin skinned.

You likely aren't old enough to remember that Karl Malone's elbows ruined lives in the 1990s.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[reddyplayerone]

lol at anyone thinking Steph has ever been on the same level as this version of Jokic

Ikr?

Does Steph even like horses???

[Sedale Threatt]

Let Dale Davis or Antonio Davis cover him?

Well yeah. (And Shaq still shot 66% in their ECF win.) Which is kind of the whole point. Why even bring somebody like Smits up?

Shaq was a completely different player than Jokic though. Shaq was like a running back whose athleticism allowed him to overpower anybody. Jokic is like a QB who picks apart a defense.

Smits was a solid big for his era though. Definitely not in same tier as Shaq, Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, or even Mourning (IMO).

Of course. But Jokic is so much more than that. Take his playmaking completely out of the equation and he's still averaging 30 a game with one of the best shooting splits we've ever seen. He'll undoubtedly cool off from 3-point range, but he's already got enough shots in the bank that he stands a great chance of going 50/40/80, which less than 100 players have ever done.

It's kind of wild to me, but even after five years of putting up numbers like this it's like people still don't grasp what they're seeing. It's definitely not a crime to pick somebody else here. But reducing Jokic to a mere playmaker when he's ranked among the league scoring leaders for half a decade now is not a fair reflection of his impact or skill set.

I can still only chalk it up to the fact that he can't jump over a piece of paper.

[jbsays]

Well yeah. (And Shaq still shot 66% in their ECF win.) Which is kind of the whole point. Why even bring somebody like Smits up?

Shaq was a completely different player than Jokic though. Shaq was like a running back whose athleticism allowed him to overpower anybody. Jokic is like a QB who picks apart a defense.

Smits was a solid big for his era though. Definitely not in same tier as Shaq, Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, or even Mourning (IMO).

Of course. But Jokic is so much more than that. Take his playmaking completely out of the equation and he's still averaging 30 a game with one of the best shooting splits we've ever seen. He'll undoubtedly cool off from 3-point range, but he's already got enough shots in the bank that he stands a great chance of going 50/40/80, which less than 100 players have ever done.

It's kind of wild to me, but even after five years of putting up numbers like this it's like people still don't grasp what they're seeing. It's definitely not a crime to pick somebody else here. But reducing Jokic to a mere playmaker when he's ranked among the league scoring leaders for half a decade now is not a fair reflection of his impact or skill set.

I can still only chalk it up to the fact that he can't jump over a piece of paper.

I agree with you. I was just using QB analogy because QB is one guy in football who can pick apart a defense and win games in multiple ways. They can throw deep, throw short, run, etc.

Jokic is a center who can do it all. I don't know if he's the best offensive player of all time, but I'm not sure who you could put over him the last 4-5 years. He's my pick.

[LeBronSpaghetti]

Jokic is one of the best ever.

No argument there.

Is he the singular best offensive player ever?
IDK

For one thing, offensive numbers are inflated in this modern era. There's no disputing that fact.

Also, I suspect that a part of Jokic's dominance is that he doesn't have many peers at his size/position to challenge him on either end of the court.

Could Jokic average these numbers in a league where he had to face off against:

• Kareem,
• Hakeem,
• Robert Parish,
• Bill Walton,
• Pat Ewing,
• David Robinson,
• Shaquille,
• Tim Duncan,
• Dikembe,
• or Ben Wallace every week?

It's really hard to say...

This argument is just crazy to me. As if there’s no good big men now so we just have to say “Idk it’s impossible to say! We just don’t know how he’d do!” Also the implicit assumption that “back in my day” players used to only play against the likes Kareem, Walton, Shaq, Robinson, Wallace, etc. Go back and look at a list of centers in any of the eras you mentioned. It’s a list of about 25 nobodies and 3-4 greats, which is exactly what we have today, and exactly how it’s always been throughout NBA history.

How does he do against AD, Giannis, Gobert, Draymond, Embiid, Bam, Wemby, etc? The answer is he dominates them just like he does against everyone.

Allen/Mobley combo. Porzingis. Towns. Lopez. Capela. Turner. Vucevic. Holmgren. Sengun. Zubac. Jackson. Nurkic. Reid. Sabonis. Gafford/Washington/Lively combo.

To be clear, because of poor defense or age or fragility or whatever, some of these guys are stretches. But if we're throwing out names like Smits and Seikaly and Divac to prop up their respective eras, I have no problem including most of them as well. Because your point stands about there usually being a small core of true elites and largely nobodies in any given season.

These debates come up frequently, to the point I actually did go through full rosters for the 96-97 or 97-98 seasons once to refresh my memory on the 4s and 5s. It was appalling. Three of the four division winners started Greg Ostertag, Jim McIlvaine and Luc Longley. For every Tim Duncan you had three or four Felton Spencers.

People just get blinded by nostalgia. Which, to be fair, is easy to do when you're as top-heavy as the 90s were. But still. People forget just how bad some of these dudes were. I'm still scarred from having to watch Sean Rooks for three seasons.

This is exactly right. Nostalgia is so powerful, the NBA is far deeper today. And not only are offenses far more sofisticated, defenses are too. In 20 years some new big man is going to be dominating the league and people on sites like this will be saying “Pffft who cares! He would get destroyed in the old days by Giannis, Embiid, Jokic, AD, Wemby, Chet, etc.” It’s just such a tired argument that people always throw down as some sort of trump card against the current generation of greats.

I can even do the reverse and invalidate the older generation with another argument: “Big men today are far more athletic and far better defensively than they were 30 years ago. The Ostertags of the world don’t exist today not because the NBA today is “soft” and “small” but rather because it’s far too skilled for him now. Today Greg Ostertag would be put into a million pick and rolls or DHOs and forced to guard guards who would absolutely destroy him, rendering him unplayable. Jokic has proven he can survive just fine in the modern matchup attacking league we’re in today. Could Shaq do that? I really just don’t know!”

[DCasey91]

Just envision Jokic instead of Hakeem in Rudy's T modern system. Best offence in the league basically... In the 90's

Heck Pacers, Suns, Blazers whichever dude can play with a carbon rod and still get top offence out of it lmao.

Jokic is transcendent because his skill pool matches or exceeds by a universe with the best players of all time at his size in every single fukn era.

Folks Brad Daughtery was a 5x All Star, Mchale was a hyper efficient finisher etc, Pau is Pau, Dirk is Dirk, Bird is Bird etc

Jokic really could be the greatest offensive player of all time.

[reddyplayerone]

Jokic might just punch out rodman.

So Jokic would do the one thing Rodman would have wanted him to do?

Yeah Idk how anyone can contend with such formidable genius the likes of which we just have not seen before!