Tank World Order V (Rise of the Phoenix)

[Clutch0z24]

All of team treadmill need to understand the greater good of getting a high end draft pick....

There is exactly 0 people on this board who want a treadmill team it is quite easy to win an argument when you can make up a boogeyman to defeat...

The closest I can see to "team treadmill" is people pointing out that this team is to good to be as bad as TWO wants it to be, and that there is definitely a conversation to be had that if our current guys TWO wants to build around aren't good enough to be above the bottom 5 anyways then we have much larger problems at hand.

But hey - TWO still thinks we are bad enough to be bottom 3-5 in the league and somehow by next year or the year after with a top 3 pick those same players can be major contributors to a contender

Its not about next year or the year after....Its about the ceiling of where you want the team to be in lets say 5 years time....Do you want in 5 years we have to go through another rebuild because we find out this current core can't get past the 1st round?....Or do you want the potential where we suck it up, lose games but still have a fun season despite the losing and have some hope that we can find a true franchise changing player with a high end draft pick to go along with the current core growing together with said player ...Raising the ceiling of the team drastically...

It would be one thing if a player on our team now showed flashes of being a real number 1 option and superstar potential but i have yet to see that with any of the players we have....I seen good all star type games but not superstar....If i did i wouldn't care to get a high pick cause id just be happy we have that kind of a player already in place...and it would be easier to build a team around that player with draft picks in the 8-14 area that you and all of team treadmill would want to be picking at in the drafts...

[OakleyDokely]

I'm not really sweating the wins/losses. The draft is really good/deep, and I'm not convinced that the projected guys at the very top like Flagg and Ace are going to be that much better (or better at all), than some of the guys drafted in the 5-12 range. We should be able to get a difference maker in the lottery of this draft.

This isn't a Wemby draft where there's one generational player to go after. It's a draft that could produce a bunch of all-stars / borderline allstars though and that extends past the first few picks.

[Psubs]

I'm not really sweating the wins/losses. The draft is really good/deep, and I'm not convinced that the projected guys at the very top like Flagg and Ace are going to be that much better (or better at all), than some of the guys drafted in the 5-12 range. We should be able to get a difference maker in the lottery of this draft.

This isn't a Wemby draft where there's one generational player to go after. It's a draft that could produce a bunch of all-stars / borderline allstars though and that extends past the first few picks.

Should be quite a few Jared McCain and Jaylen Wells' in the teens and early 20's.

Even Boogie Fland could be a more pure PG Rob Dillingham but already starting as a freshman.

[YogurtProducer]

All of team treadmill need to understand the greater good of getting a high end draft pick....

There is exactly 0 people on this board who want a treadmill team it is quite easy to win an argument when you can make up a boogeyman to defeat...

The closest I can see to "team treadmill" is people pointing out that this team is to good to be as bad as TWO wants it to be, and that there is definitely a conversation to be had that if our current guys TWO wants to build around aren't good enough to be above the bottom 5 anyways then we have much larger problems at hand.

But hey - TWO still thinks we are bad enough to be bottom 3-5 in the league and somehow by next year or the year after with a top 3 pick those same players can be major contributors to a contender

Its not about next year or the year after....Its about the ceiling of where you want the team to be in lets say 5 years time....Do you want in 5 years we have to go through another rebuild because we find out this current core can't get past the 1st round?....Or do you want the potential where we suck it up, lose games but still have a fun season despite the losing and have some hope that we can find a true franchise changing player with a high end draft pick to go along with the current core growing together with said player ...Raising the ceiling of the team drastically...

It would be one thing if a player on our team now showed flashes of being a real number 1 option and superstar potential but i have yet to see that with any of the players we have....I seen good all star type games but not superstar....If i did i wouldn't care to get a high pick cause id just be happy we have that kind of a player already in place...

No one wants the ceiling of the team to be a 1st round exit - that is just being disingenuous and making **** up about what others thing and arguing something that does not exist. That is like me saying TWO wants to just pick in the top 5 for a decade and be the Pistons. I understand no one wants that, but that is the legitimate downside.

You act as if blowing it up completely and tanking guarantees we find a real number 1 option. The odds are extremely stacked against you from finding that player even if you end up with the #1 pick. Like even if you win the lottery (at best 14% chance) there is still not a great % chance the #1 pick even becomes a player you are describing. Like in the last 20 years we have seen Bogut, Bargnani, Oden, Griffin, Wall, Irving, Bennett, Wiggins, KAT, Simmons, Fultz, Ayton, Zion, etc. all be drafted #1 and none of those guys are surefire #1 options that transcend a franchise. I think Wiggins & Irving are the only ones with a ring?

Sure - it is much easier to build around the average #1 pick. Your team is also on average much worse if you are bad enough to get the #1 pick and it is VERY hard to build out of. There is a tradeoff here that seems to get ignored by the TWO crew.

and it would be easier to build a team around that player with draft picks in the 8-14 area that you and all of team treadmill would want to be picking at in the drafts...

LOL until you understand there is not a single poster on this entire **** forum that WANTS to miss the playoffs and WANTS to not get a top 5 pick this is just a pointless exercise. No one WANTS to be in the 8-14 range. I have not seen a single poster say that.

So stop arguing with yourself about something that doesn't exist.

[Duffman100]

I'm not really sweating the wins/losses. The draft is really good/deep, and I'm not convinced that the projected guys at the very top like Flagg and Ace are going to be that much better (or better at all), than some of the guys drafted in the 5-12 range. We should be able to get a difference maker in the lottery of this draft.

This isn't a Wemby draft where there's one generational player to go after. It's a draft that could produce a bunch of all-stars / borderline allstars though and that extends past the first few picks.

This is just it. We heard the same song and dance in the Cade/Mobley/Green draft. Generational draft, so good.

And they are good, but Cade all the way to Sengun there isn't a stand out.

I've seen clips of all these guys and I don't see a Wemby. I see some really intriguing talent but with the way we got Dick at 13 (who is top 5, arguably top 3, and MAYBE the 2nd best player of that draft). I ain't too worried.

I'd like to see growth from Ochai, Dick, Quickly, Barret and Barnes.

[Clutch0z24]

There is exactly 0 people on this board who want a treadmill team it is quite easy to win an argument when you can make up a boogeyman to defeat...

The closest I can see to "team treadmill" is people pointing out that this team is to good to be as bad as TWO wants it to be, and that there is definitely a conversation to be had that if our current guys TWO wants to build around aren't good enough to be above the bottom 5 anyways then we have much larger problems at hand.

But hey - TWO still thinks we are bad enough to be bottom 3-5 in the league and somehow by next year or the year after with a top 3 pick those same players can be major contributors to a contender

Its not about next year or the year after....Its about the ceiling of where you want the team to be in lets say 5 years time....Do you want in 5 years we have to go through another rebuild because we find out this current core can't get past the 1st round?....Or do you want the potential where we suck it up, lose games but still have a fun season despite the losing and have some hope that we can find a true franchise changing player with a high end draft pick to go along with the current core growing together with said player ...Raising the ceiling of the team drastically...

It would be one thing if a player on our team now showed flashes of being a real number 1 option and superstar potential but i have yet to see that with any of the players we have....I seen good all star type games but not superstar....If i did i wouldn't care to get a high pick cause id just be happy we have that kind of a player already in place...

No one wants the ceiling of the team to be a 1st round exit - that is just being disingenuous and making **** up about what others thing and arguing something that does not exist. That is like me saying TWO wants to just pick in the top 5 for a decade and be the Pistons. I understand no one wants that, but that is the legitimate downside.

You act as if blowing it up completely and tanking guarantees we find a real number 1 option. The odds are extremely stacked against you from finding that player even if you end up with the #1 pick. Like even if you win the lottery (at best 14% chance) there is still not a great % chance the #1 pick even becomes a player you are describing. Like in the last 20 years we have seen Bogut, Bargnani, Oden, Griffin, Wall, Irving, Bennett, Wiggins, KAT, Simmons, Fultz, Ayton, Zion, etc. all be drafted #1 and none of those guys are surefire #1 options that transcend a franchise. I think Wiggins & Irving are the only ones with a ring?

Sure - it is much easier to build around the average #1 pick. Your team is also on average much worse if you are bad enough to get the #1 pick and it is VERY hard to build out of. There is a tradeoff here that seems to get ignored by the TWO crew.

and it would be easier to build a team around that player with draft picks in the 8-14 area that you and all of team treadmill would want to be picking at in the drafts...

LOL until you understand there is not a single poster on this entire **** forum that WANTS to miss the playoffs and WANTS to not get a top 5 pick this is just a pointless exercise. No one WANTS to be in the 8-14 range. I have not seen a single poster say that.

So stop arguing with yourself about something that doesn't exist.

Again i don't think you are too history savvy when it comes to the NBA in the past or how teams that were dynasties were formed ....I don't think your basketball IQ is high in that regard to be arguing with you about these topics at hand because its like talking to a wall since you don't understand simple probabilities and you seem to not understand our position being a Canadian team league wide has an effect on how we would need to find a true number 1....We are not the Lakers or Miami...Stars don't wanna come to cold Canada to play in a different country....We don't have trade assets to get one since many teams have better assets to trump us in any trade if one demands a trade, And no player is demanding a trade to Toronto....Which makes drafting one our best chance...

The Kawhi trade prolly skewed your rational thought process on our ability to find a player on that level...But for the multiple times i explained this to you...Your chances of finding a player of that caliber in the late lotto or in the 20s is very very rare....Finding it in the top lets say 5...Is alot more likely just by pure facts from the entire history of the NBA draft...

Also not all drafts are the same...Some drafts have multiple franchise changing players some have 1 or 2 and some have none....Thats why its always smart to have good scouts that know which drafts are worth being in the top 5 vs drafts where it might be pointless...

Also got to factor in scouting and smart drafters.....Which Masai started his career as a scout and that is prolly his strongest ability as a GM is making the right pick more times than not...And id trust him to make the right pick if he ends up with number 1,2,3,4,5th pick....But ofc there comes a point in the draft if your 2 far down the board you will end up with just a meh player by default...

We clearly are not good enough to be a playoff contender, We clearly don't have a true number 1 option, And we clearly don't want a 8-12 pick if we can get a top 5 pick....So i really don't understand wtf you are trying to always argue about here...

[Los_29]

I'm not really sweating the wins/losses. The draft is really good/deep, and I'm not convinced that the projected guys at the very top like Flagg and Ace are going to be that much better (or better at all), than some of the guys drafted in the 5-12 range. We should be able to get a difference maker in the lottery of this draft.

This isn't a Wemby draft where there's one generational player to go after. It's a draft that could produce a bunch of all-stars / borderline allstars though and that extends past the first few picks.

This is just it. We heard the same song and dance in the Cade/Mobley/Green draft. Generational draft, so good.

And they are good, but Cade all the way to Sengun there isn't a stand out.

I've seen clips of all these guys and I don't see a Wemby. I see some really intriguing talent but with the way we got Dick at 13 (who is top 5, arguably top 3, and MAYBE the 2nd best player of that draft). I ain't too worried.

I'd like to see growth from Ochai, Dick, Quickly, Barret and Barnes.

I see the same thing happening now that happened in 2021. People hyping up the top 4 as can’t miss, generational prospects. I like Flagg, I really do. The fact he’s 17 and producing like he has been, is amazing. But I’m not sure I see a guy that can be an elite scorer. There is a lot of good talent in this draft though and the team’s future will look very promising next year with the addition of a lottery pick and continued growth from our younger players.

[Scase]

I'm not really sweating the wins/losses. The draft is really good/deep, and I'm not convinced that the projected guys at the very top like Flagg and Ace are going to be that much better (or better at all), than some of the guys drafted in the 5-12 range. We should be able to get a difference maker in the lottery of this draft.

This isn't a Wemby draft where there's one generational player to go after. It's a draft that could produce a bunch of all-stars / borderline allstars though and that extends past the first few picks.

This is just it. We heard the same song and dance in the Cade/Mobley/Green draft. Generational draft, so good.

And they are good, but Cade all the way to Sengun there isn't a stand out.

I've seen clips of all these guys and I don't see a Wemby. I see some really intriguing talent but with the way we got Dick at 13 (who is top 5, arguably top 3, and MAYBE the 2nd best player of that draft). I ain't too worried.

I'd like to see growth from Ochai, Dick, Quickly, Barret and Barnes.

The problem with these scenarios, is that you are now dependent on other teams making the wrong moves, and hoping you can find a steal late(r) in the draft. It's putting your future in someone else's hands vs your own.

The top end of the draft is statistically better to an overwhelming degree, just because you can make lemonade with those lemons, doesn't mean you should be happy with lemons when you want some OJ.

Higher draft picks are always better, that is an undeniable and inarguable truth. I'd rather have the 5th pick and trade down to get the guy our FO identifies as the true best player, than have the 13th pick and hope he's still there. Deep or not, a higher pick is better, period.

[YogurtProducer]

Again i don't think you are too history savvy when it comes to the NBA in the past or how teams that were dynasties were formed

I am quite aware. I just don't think looking back to the 70s/80s/90s is really relevant to modern team building. I am much more interested in dealing with the realities of the league today and not wondering why we don't just copy the MJ Bulls.

Irony of yours post is you obviously don't know the histroy of tanking teams. They are wildly unsuccessful at going from bottom tier team to contender. It is so uncommon that advocates for the strategy seem to struggle with finding many examples of when it has actually worked.

....I don't think your basketball IQ is high in that regard to be arguing with you about these topics at hand because its like talking to a wall since you don't understand simple probabilities and you seem to not understand our position being a Canadian team league wide has an effect on how we would need to find a true number 1....We are not the Lakers or Miami...Stars don't wanna come to cold Canada to play in a different country....We don't have trade assets to get one since many teams have better assets to trump us in any trade if one demands a trade, And no player is demanding a trade to Toronto....Which makes drafting one our best chance...

I 100% understand the probabilities. That is why I posted recent #1 picks, as well as the fact there is at best a 14% chance of getting said #1 pick. You can argue until your blue in the fact that it is our best positions to get talent. Sure. But you still need to acknowledge that it is a very, very, very risky endeavor and it fails more than it succeeds.

The Kawhi trade prolly skewed your rational thought process on our ability to find a player on that level...But for the multiple times i explained this to you...Your chances of finding a player of that caliber in the late lotto or in the 20s is very very rare....Finding it in the top lets say 5...Is alot more likely just by pure facts from the entire history of the NBA draft...

I 100% understand that and have never argued otherwise. Your chances of finding a Kawhi level player are very very rare regardless of where you pick. His peak with us was one of the highest peaks in NBA history, so high that only LBJ as a #1 pick over 20 years ago can even meet it, let alone surpass it.

Also not all drafts are the same...Some drafts have multiple franchise changing players some have 1 or 2 and some have none....Thats why its always smart to have good scouts that know which drafts are worth being in the top 5 vs drafts where it might be pointless...

Just like the generational 2014 draft, am I right?

Also got to factor in scouting and smart drafters.....Which Masai started his career as a scout and that is prolly his strongest ability as a GM is making the right pick more times than not...And id trust him to make the right pick if he ends up with number 1,2,3,4,5th pick....But ofc there comes a point in the draft if your 2 far down the board you will end up with just a meh player by default...

I also trust Masai to make the right pick. Reality is that you can make the right pick and still end up with a guy whose good and not good enough (Scottie Barnes?).

Reality is you can go back through 20 years of the draft and even if you picked perfectly (and realistically) at #1, you still very rarely end up with the type of talent you are looking for.

We clearly are not good enough to be a playoff contender, We clearly don't have a true number 1 option, And we clearly don't want a 8-12 pick if we can get a top 5 pick....So i really don't understand wtf you are trying to always argue about here...

I am trying to argue that our team is to good to be a bottom 5 team, not whether or not it is in our best interest to be one. You are the one that went off on this tirade while obviously not even reading what I was trying to say.

So again - you are arguing with NO ONE. You make up arguments to try and win them and argue with ghosts. Go log into your alt's so you can agree with yourself.

[YogurtProducer]

I'm not really sweating the wins/losses. The draft is really good/deep, and I'm not convinced that the projected guys at the very top like Flagg and Ace are going to be that much better (or better at all), than some of the guys drafted in the 5-12 range. We should be able to get a difference maker in the lottery of this draft.

This isn't a Wemby draft where there's one generational player to go after. It's a draft that could produce a bunch of all-stars / borderline allstars though and that extends past the first few picks.

This is just it. We heard the same song and dance in the Cade/Mobley/Green draft. Generational draft, so good.

And they are good, but Cade all the way to Sengun there isn't a stand out.

I've seen clips of all these guys and I don't see a Wemby. I see some really intriguing talent but with the way we got Dick at 13 (who is top 5, arguably top 3, and MAYBE the 2nd best player of that draft). I ain't too worried.

I'd like to see growth from Ochai, Dick, Quickly, Barret and Barnes.

The problem with these scenarios, is that you are now dependent on other teams making the wrong moves, and hoping you can find a steal late(r) in the draft. It's putting your future in someone else's hands vs your own.

The top end of the draft is statistically better to an overwhelming degree, just because you can make lemonade with those lemons, doesn't mean you should be happy with lemons when you want some OJ.

Higher draft picks are always better, that is an undeniable and inarguable truth. I'd rather have the 5th pick and trade down to get the guy our FO identifies as the true best player, than have the 13th pick and hope he's still there. Deep or not, a higher pick is better, period.

Sure, but worse teams always make those better draft picks. Who then generally turn into teams who are decent, but not good enough, who then fall back into the "we need more elite talent".

So even if you bottom out to be a bottom 5 team you need to make a TON of moves to get into relevancy. That is a lot of good moves, and a lot of luck, to dig yourself out of that hole. It is why it is almost never happens because it is **** hard to do. You can even make the right draft picks and it still won't be enough.

So yes - you can be a .500 team and you need to "get lucky" as you say, but when you are a rebuilding bottom-feeder you also need to "Get lucky".

These conversation are just a waste of time because you guys try so hard to convince everyone else that your preferred way of team building is fool-proof and any other avenue is a pipe-dream. You ignore the MASSIVE risks and downsides of a full-out tank effort, and seem to not realize the implications of being that bad in other areas.

And I am not even against a tank this year. I am pretty indifferent. But I will always 100% support the team winning games because guess what - winning is good.

It is just a fallacy to think that our young players like Scottie are good enough to be contributors to a contender and in the same breathe think they are bad enough to be a bottom 5 team. You need to pick a lane because it cant be both.

[AbC?]

The Raptors are too good to be a bottom 5 team, really?

We're competing with the Wizards/Nets/Blazers/Bulls/Pistons/Hornets/Jazz/Hawks

Outside of the Wizards, who are these teams that we just can't compete with?
- Hawks have an elite offensive engine in Trae Young, a few competent veteran role players and Johnson/Dyson/Risascher who are playing well, trying to win games
- Bulls are still on their perma-treadmill and are still trying to win games with Vuc/Lavine
- Nets have a bunch of good veteran role players and Jordi looks like a solid coach squeezing out wins - Sean Marks may be looking to pull the cord on them soon though
- Jazz won 31 games and largely brought back the same team
- Pistons are trying to turn the corner and compete this season with a new coach
- Hornets have Lamelo and a few good players

Then you have NOLA and the Sixers who I assume will get healthy at some point and get out of the tank standings. Both are way more talented than us when healthy.

So I won't argue that yes, the healthy Raptors are better than the Wizards/Nets/Jazz/Hornets/Pistons but they're all in a similar tier. This is where it takes commitment from the front office to tank. It's not a passive thing, you need to be proactive. It takes buy-in to a long-term vision. It takes buy-in from the entire organization. It requires making moves that might be unpopular to the fans and players. But to suggest that the Raptors as currently constructed are simply too good to tank is nonsense. The real question isn't whether the team is too good to tank, but whether Masai is willing to make the tough choices to do so. That's a different conversation.

(He's a washed GM now so I'm not optimistic)

[Scase]

The Raptors are too good to be a bottom 5 team, really?

We're competing with the Wizards/Nets/Blazers/Bulls/Pistons/Hornets/Jazz/Hawks

Outside of the Wizards, who are these teams that we just can't compete with?
- Hawks have an elite offensive engine in Trae Young, a few competent veteran role players and Johnson/Dyson/Risascher who are playing well, trying to win games
- Bulls are still on their perma-treadmill and are still trying to win games with Vuc/Lavine
- Nets have a bunch of good veteran role players and Jordi looks like a solid coach squeezing out wins - Sean Marks may be looking to pull the cord on them soon though
- Jazz won 31 games and largely brought back the same team
- Pistons are trying to turn the corner and compete this season with a new coach
- Hornets have Lamelo and a few good players

Then you have NOLA and the Sixers who I assume will get healthy at some point and get out of the tank standings. Both are way more talented than us when healthy.

So I won't argue that yes, the healthy Raptors are better than the Wizards/Nets/Jazz/Hornets/Pistons but they're all in a similar tier. This is where it takes commitment from the front office to tank. It's not a passive thing, you need to be proactive. It takes buy-in to a long-term vision. It takes buy-in from the entire organization. It requires making moves that might be unpopular to the fans and players. But to suggest that the Raptors as currently constructed are simply too good to tank is nonsense. The real question isn't whether the team is too good to tank, but whether Masai is willing to make the tough choices to do so. That's a different conversation.

(He's a washed GM now so I'm not optimistic)

While I don't think Masai is washed, I agree overall. The only team we are definitively better than, are the Wiz, otherwise everyone is roughly in the same tier. While the Hornets and Pistons are both actively trying to win, and have arguably a higher talent player overall as their #1 option in Lamelo and Cade, so they are likely to squeeze out more wins than us in a similar situation.

The Nets are a real concern, cause they can and should, just pull the plug at some point, and we need to ensure we are behind them by a healthy margin to "absorb" that when they start sinking. Jazz are weird, Ainge makes trades for picks, but (and I could be wrong since I don't follow the Jazz much) he doesn't seem to make any blatant tanking moves like shutting down players for the last 20-30 games of the year, so we should be right along side them.

IMO, the easiest thing to do, is just sideline Jak for like 15-20 games this year, or trade him. Otherwise we are fighting fate.

[YogurtProducer]

The Raptors are too good to be a bottom 5 team, really?

We're competing with the Wizards/Nets/Blazers/Bulls/Pistons/Hornets/Jazz/Hawks

Outside of the Wizards, who are these teams that we just can't compete with?
- Hawks have an elite offensive engine in Trae Young, a few competent veteran role players and Johnson/Dyson/Risascher who are playing well, trying to win games
- Bulls are still on their perma-treadmill and are still trying to win games with Vuc/Lavine
- Nets have a bunch of good veteran role players and Jordi looks like a solid coach squeezing out wins - Sean Marks may be looking to pull the cord on them soon though
- Jazz won 31 games and largely brought back the same team
- Pistons are trying to turn the corner and compete this season with a new coach
- Hornets have Lamelo and a few good players

From a NRTG standpoint (again, in small samples is more telling than W-L) we are 24th. From a SRS standpoint we are 23rd. Both of those metrics which generally are more telling over a 82-game season have us out of the bottom 5 already.

That is with Barnes barely playing, IQ barely playing, RJ missing games, KO/BB playing 0 minutes, etc. That is also with us having a very difficult schedule that is going to turn around.

There is already decent reason to believe we are to good to be bottom 5.

Then you have NOLA and the Sixers who I assume will get healthy at some point and get out of the tank standings. Both are way more talented than us when healthy.

So the health argument only works for teams below us but not... for us? We are never going to get healthy?

So I won't argue that yes, the healthy Raptors are better than the Wizards/Nets/Jazz/Hornets/Pistons but they're all in a similar tier.

Sheesh, if you think our current players are no better than Poole/Kuzma, or Thomas/Johnson Nets then I guess I can see where you are coming from. But man, that is a wild take and if you are right, we might as well ship out Barnes right now while he at least has the "potential" tag

The real question isn't whether the team is too good to tank, but whether Masai is willing to make the tough choices to do so. That's a different conversation.

(He's a washed GM now so I'm not optimistic)

Is this just a weird way of concluding your post that as constructed we are to good to tank...?

[Vampirate]

The Raptors are too good to be a bottom 5 team, really?

We're competing with the Wizards/Nets/Blazers/Bulls/Pistons/Hornets/Jazz/Hawks

Outside of the Wizards, who are these teams that we just can't compete with?
- Hawks have an elite offensive engine in Trae Young, a few competent veteran role players and Johnson/Dyson/Risascher who are playing well, trying to win games
- Bulls are still on their perma-treadmill and are still trying to win games with Vuc/Lavine
- Nets have a bunch of good veteran role players and Jordi looks like a solid coach squeezing out wins - Sean Marks may be looking to pull the cord on them soon though
- Jazz won 31 games and largely brought back the same team
- Pistons are trying to turn the corner and compete this season with a new coach
- Hornets have Lamelo and a few good players

Then you have NOLA and the Sixers who I assume will get healthy at some point and get out of the tank standings. Both are way more talented than us when healthy.

So I won't argue that yes, the healthy Raptors are better than the Wizards/Nets/Jazz/Hornets/Pistons but they're all in a similar tier. This is where it takes commitment from the front office to tank. It's not a passive thing, you need to be proactive. It takes buy-in to a long-term vision. It takes buy-in from the entire organization. It requires making moves that might be unpopular to the fans and players. But to suggest that the Raptors as currently constructed are simply too good to tank is nonsense. The real question isn't whether the team is too good to tank, but whether Masai is willing to make the tough choices to do so. That's a different conversation.

(He's a washed GM now so I'm not optimistic)

While I don't think Masai is washed, I agree overall. The only team we are definitively better than, are the Wiz, otherwise everyone is roughly in the same tier. While the Hornets and Pistons are both actively trying to win, and have arguably a higher talent player overall as their #1 option in Lamelo and Cade, so they are likely to squeeze out more wins than us in a similar situation.

The Nets are a real concern, cause they can and should, just pull the plug at some point, and we need to ensure we are behind them by a healthy margin to "absorb" that when they start sinking. Jazz are weird, Ainge makes trades for picks, but (and I could be wrong since I don't follow the Jazz much) he doesn't seem to make any blatant tanking moves like shutting down players for the last 20-30 games of the year, so we should be right along side them.

IMO, the easiest thing to do, is just sideline Jak for like 15-20 games this year, or trade him. Otherwise we are fighting fate.

I agree with Lamelo and props to the guy, however I don't agree with Cade.

Cade has a lot of the same issues Barnes has (lack of a first step), where as Barnes can just power his way inside, Cade is very reliant on his mid range and is just a poor finisher at close range.

Lamelo is also a poor finisher but is much more dynamic as a shooter/ball handler than Cade.

The difference between the 2 is Lamelo can get create easy looks for himself beyond the 3 point line, but Cade can't.

[YogurtProducer]

Ainge makes trades for picks, but (and I could be wrong since I don't follow the Jazz much) he doesn't seem to make any blatant tanking moves like shutting down players for the last 20-30 games of the year, so we should be right along side them.

Ainge trade away Agbaji and Olynyk for nothing. That is the definition of a blatant tank move.

[Clutch0z24]

Again i don't think you are too history savvy when it comes to the NBA in the past or how teams that were dynasties were formed

I am quite aware. I just don't think looking back to the 70s/80s/90s is really relevant to modern team building. I am much more interested in dealing with the realities of the league today and not wondering why we don't just copy the MJ Bulls.

Irony of yours post is you obviously don't know the histroy of tanking teams. They are wildly unsuccessful at going from bottom tier team to contender. It is so uncommon that advocates for the strategy seem to struggle with finding many examples of when it has actually worked.

....I don't think your basketball IQ is high in that regard to be arguing with you about these topics at hand because its like talking to a wall since you don't understand simple probabilities and you seem to not understand our position being a Canadian team league wide has an effect on how we would need to find a true number 1....We are not the Lakers or Miami...Stars don't wanna come to cold Canada to play in a different country....We don't have trade assets to get one since many teams have better assets to trump us in any trade if one demands a trade, And no player is demanding a trade to Toronto....Which makes drafting one our best chance...

I 100% understand the probabilities. That is why I posted recent #1 picks, as well as the fact there is at best a 14% chance of getting said #1 pick. You can argue until your blue in the fact that it is our best positions to get talent. Sure. But you still need to acknowledge that it is a very, very, very risky endeavor and it fails more than it succeeds.

The Kawhi trade prolly skewed your rational thought process on our ability to find a player on that level...But for the multiple times i explained this to you...Your chances of finding a player of that caliber in the late lotto or in the 20s is very very rare....Finding it in the top lets say 5...Is alot more likely just by pure facts from the entire history of the NBA draft...

I 100% understand that and have never argued otherwise. Your chances of finding a Kawhi level player are very very rare regardless of where you pick. His peak with us was one of the highest peaks in NBA history, so high that only LBJ as a #1 pick over 20 years ago can even meet it, let alone surpass it.

Also not all drafts are the same...Some drafts have multiple franchise changing players some have 1 or 2 and some have none....Thats why its always smart to have good scouts that know which drafts are worth being in the top 5 vs drafts where it might be pointless...

Just like the generational 2014 draft, am I right?

Also got to factor in scouting and smart drafters.....Which Masai started his career as a scout and that is prolly his strongest ability as a GM is making the right pick more times than not...And id trust him to make the right pick if he ends up with number 1,2,3,4,5th pick....But ofc there comes a point in the draft if your 2 far down the board you will end up with just a meh player by default...

I also trust Masai to make the right pick. Reality is that you can make the right pick and still end up with a guy whose good and not good enough (Scottie Barnes?).

Reality is you can go back through 20 years of the draft and even if you picked perfectly (and realistically) at #1, you still very rarely end up with the type of talent you are looking for.

We clearly are not good enough to be a playoff contender, We clearly don't have a true number 1 option, And we clearly don't want a 8-12 pick if we can get a top 5 pick....So i really don't understand wtf you are trying to always argue about here...

I am trying to argue that our team is to good to be a bottom 5 team, not whether or not it is in our best interest to be one. You are the one that went off on this tirade while obviously not even reading what I was trying to say.

So again - you are arguing with NO ONE. You make up arguments to try and win them and argue with ghosts. Go log into your alt's so you can agree with yourself.

Wtf are you arguing here? We are a bottom 5 team infact we are 4th worst in the league ....We have 4 wins on the season....4....But we are too good of a team....You seem lost....

Also you have to factor in that you are not in behind the scenes and you have no idea what Masai/Darko talk about behind closed doors....Is it possible that they are both on board with trying to get as high of a pick as possible? ...Is it possible that if we start looking like we are winning more games Masai starts to trade a few guys that maybe helping us win games?....Is it possible that guys end up sitting with random injuries?....

There are ways to tank without being the "Pistons" level like you always like to bring up....If Masai thinks playing the draft for this year and maybe even next year is the smarter thing to do for the franchise then let the man do his job and stop throwing a hissy fit about it...

[MiamiSPX]

The next 5 games are winnable (although I doubt they can beat MIA in B2B games), so any run they are going to make has to start now, otherwise you're just up against basic math.

[CoinTossRoss31]

Ainge makes trades for picks, but (and I could be wrong since I don't follow the Jazz much) he doesn't seem to make any blatant tanking moves like shutting down players for the last 20-30 games of the year, so we should be right along side them.

Ainge trade away Agbaji and Olynyk for nothing. That is the definition of a blatant tank move.

He got a late first thats not nothing.

[CoinTossRoss31]

The next 5 games are going to be a real tank tester.
As long as we don't go 4-1 or something stupid we should be happy with 2-3.

Detroit (W)
New Orleans (L)
MIA (L)
MIA (W)
IND (L)

[Scase]

The Raptors are too good to be a bottom 5 team, really?

We're competing with the Wizards/Nets/Blazers/Bulls/Pistons/Hornets/Jazz/Hawks

Outside of the Wizards, who are these teams that we just can't compete with?
- Hawks have an elite offensive engine in Trae Young, a few competent veteran role players and Johnson/Dyson/Risascher who are playing well, trying to win games
- Bulls are still on their perma-treadmill and are still trying to win games with Vuc/Lavine
- Nets have a bunch of good veteran role players and Jordi looks like a solid coach squeezing out wins - Sean Marks may be looking to pull the cord on them soon though
- Jazz won 31 games and largely brought back the same team
- Pistons are trying to turn the corner and compete this season with a new coach
- Hornets have Lamelo and a few good players

Then you have NOLA and the Sixers who I assume will get healthy at some point and get out of the tank standings. Both are way more talented than us when healthy.

So I won't argue that yes, the healthy Raptors are better than the Wizards/Nets/Jazz/Hornets/Pistons but they're all in a similar tier. This is where it takes commitment from the front office to tank. It's not a passive thing, you need to be proactive. It takes buy-in to a long-term vision. It takes buy-in from the entire organization. It requires making moves that might be unpopular to the fans and players. But to suggest that the Raptors as currently constructed are simply too good to tank is nonsense. The real question isn't whether the team is too good to tank, but whether Masai is willing to make the tough choices to do so. That's a different conversation.

(He's a washed GM now so I'm not optimistic)

While I don't think Masai is washed, I agree overall. The only team we are definitively better than, are the Wiz, otherwise everyone is roughly in the same tier. While the Hornets and Pistons are both actively trying to win, and have arguably a higher talent player overall as their #1 option in Lamelo and Cade, so they are likely to squeeze out more wins than us in a similar situation.

The Nets are a real concern, cause they can and should, just pull the plug at some point, and we need to ensure we are behind them by a healthy margin to "absorb" that when they start sinking. Jazz are weird, Ainge makes trades for picks, but (and I could be wrong since I don't follow the Jazz much) he doesn't seem to make any blatant tanking moves like shutting down players for the last 20-30 games of the year, so we should be right along side them.

IMO, the easiest thing to do, is just sideline Jak for like 15-20 games this year, or trade him. Otherwise we are fighting fate.

I agree with Lamelo and props to the guy, however I don't agree with Cade.

Cade has a lot of the same issues Barnes has (lack of a first step), where as Barnes can just power his way inside, Cade is very reliant on his mid range and is just a poor finisher at close range.

Lamelo is also a poor finisher but is much more dynamic as a shooter/ball handler than Cade.

The difference between the 2 is Lamelo can get create easy looks for himself beyond the 3 point line, but Cade can't.

Cades been changing up his shot diet a little bit which has helped open up the team, but his efficiency has dipped. I think Cade is a better scoring option than Scottie, that's what I mean by higher talent player, what with the league being offence first.

And I think a better scorer on the same team will get more wins than the worse one, despite who is the higher potential player. But realistically, there's not a huge difference between them, so I'll walk that back a bit.