Can we safely say Jokic is the best offensive player ever?

[reddyplayerone]

Just envision Jokic instead of Hakeem in Rudy's T modern system. Best offence in the league basically... In the 90's

Heck Pacers, Suns, Blazers whichever dude can play with a carbon rod and still get top offence out of it lmao.

Jokic is transcendent because his skill pool matches or exceeds by a universe with the best players of all time at his size in every single fukn era.

Folks Brad Daughtery was a 5x All Star, Mchale was a hyper efficient finisher etc, Pau is Pau, Dirk is Dirk, Bird is Bird etc

Jokic really could be the greatest offensive player of all time.

Jokic got bullied by Old Dwight Howard with a bad back and Old JaVale McGee

[Jamaaliver]

Jokic might just punch out rodman.

So Jokic would do the one thing Rodman would have wanted him to do?

Yeah Idk how anyone can contend with such formidable genius the likes of which we just have not seen before!

You beat me to it.

[dhsilv2]

I said this before in this same thread, but there was so little overlap in those players when people come up with these lists.

When you look at post season its ridiclous. MJ never faced Cooper or Maxwell in the playoffs. Played Moncrief once and lost. Played Payton and Mcmillan once (and at that point Mcmillan was playing 13 mpg in the finals). Cheeks played him once at the age of 34. That's 6 guys you listed that MJ combined to beat once in their primes.

And in a thread where people are dismissing Rudy Gobert as a post defender against Jokic, you want to list Mooke Blaylock, a 6'0 180 pound point guard, as a good defender for MJ.

Id be impressed if someone for once actually picked a specific season where they thought MJ, or other historical players, faced a lot of tough defenders.

I think he was joking. That said...Blaylock was legit a freaking elite defender in his time! A top 10 non big man defender at his peak isn't an insane argument, if it's relative to the league.

Also...didn't know I was going here but "mic drop"...90's defense was overrated.

If it was a joke, its hard to tell

And I'm not saying Baylock wasn't an elite defender, so is Gobert. But if people are gonna dismiss Gobert, a 7'1 DPOY, as a poor post matchup because of his strength I don't see how you can make a case for Baylock being a tougher matchup for MJ.

The argument is we actually saw Blaylock give MJ a hard time. And thus...the REAL true of the "eye test". I saw it...i've built it up as a bigger thing because I saw that one play were they let mookie foul the hell out of MJ and didn't call it. So that was every single play they ever had together!

[dhsilv2]

Jokic might just punch out rodman. Not sure Malone would get under his skin. If anything he'd get under Malone's. Malone was thin skinned.

You likely aren't old enough to remember that Karl Malone's elbows ruined lives in the 1990s.

That was literally why I made the statement...because people EASILY got under Malone's skin...

[DCasey91]

Just envision Jokic instead of Hakeem in Rudy's T modern system. Best offence in the league basically... In the 90's

Heck Pacers, Suns, Blazers whichever dude can play with a carbon rod and still get top offence out of it lmao.

Jokic is transcendent because his skill pool matches or exceeds by a universe with the best players of all time at his size in every single fukn era.

Folks Brad Daughtery was a 5x All Star, Mchale was a hyper efficient finisher etc, Pau is Pau, Dirk is Dirk, Bird is Bird etc

Jokic really could be the greatest offensive player of all time.

Jokic got bullied by Old Dwight Howard with a bad back and Old JaVale McGee

Jokic did fine before his actual prime. Lakers was a stacked defensive unit all around

AD, Lebron, with Rondo/Caruso/Green/KCP as perimeter D and clogging lanes. 4 big bodies + 4 above.

Why do posters say stuff that's dumb.

[dhsilv2]

Jokic might just punch out rodman.

So Jokic would do the one thing Rodman would have wanted him to do?

Yeah Idk how anyone can contend with such formidable genius the likes of which we just have not seen before!

I never said Jokic wasn't a touch hot headed. He is. He's not beyond a cheap shot. If the league were more forgiving, he'd be more aggressive imo. Jokic isn't some chess player. He's the rocket scientist who does BJJ and thinks it's fun to do keg stands at parties even at near 30.

[dhsilv2]

Jokic might just punch out rodman.

So Jokic would do the one thing Rodman would have wanted him to do?

Yeah Idk how anyone can contend with such formidable genius the likes of which we just have not seen before!

You beat me to it.

How many games did Malone get for that elbow?

[reddyplayerone]

Just envision Jokic instead of Hakeem in Rudy's T modern system. Best offence in the league basically... In the 90's

Heck Pacers, Suns, Blazers whichever dude can play with a carbon rod and still get top offence out of it lmao.

Jokic is transcendent because his skill pool matches or exceeds by a universe with the best players of all time at his size in every single fukn era.

Folks Brad Daughtery was a 5x All Star, Mchale was a hyper efficient finisher etc, Pau is Pau, Dirk is Dirk, Bird is Bird etc

Jokic really could be the greatest offensive player of all time.

Jokic got bullied by Old Dwight Howard with a bad back and Old JaVale McGee

Jokic did fine before his actual prime. Lakers was a stacked defensive unit all around

AD, Lebron, with Rondo/Caruso/Green/KCP as perimeter D and clogging lanes. 4 big bodies + 4 above.

Why do posters say stuff that's dumb.

Yeah I have no idea why people claim things like Jokic wouldn't struggle against legit Hall of Famers who were known for their defense when we saw him get bullied by barely mobile past their prime bigs coming off the bench but I do agree it's a very dumb thing to say

[reddyplayerone]

Jokic might just punch out rodman.

So Jokic would do the one thing Rodman would have wanted him to do?

Yeah Idk how anyone can contend with such formidable genius the likes of which we just have not seen before!

I never said Jokic wasn't a touch hot headed. He is. He's not beyond a cheap shot. If the league were more forgiving, he'd be more aggressive imo. Jokic isn't some chess player. He's the rocket scientist who does BJJ and thinks it's fun to do keg stands at parties even at near 30.

LMAO I love that this is exactly the fantasy of Jokic people have concocted in their heads which is why we have to suffer conversations like these

[Jamaaliver]

This is exactly right. Nostalgia is so powerful, the NBA is far deeper today. Jokic has proven he can survive just fine in the modern matchup attacking league we’re in today. Could Shaq do that? I really just don’t know!”

The irony is that 20 years from now, some kid (who's rocking diapers today) will argue with you that Steph, Lebron and Jokic were all mediocre, no-talent hacks.

And you'll be dismayed and annoyed that a future generation of NBA fans who never actually watched them play, will insist that no one from this generation could ever possibly compete or thrive against their legends -- proven by some advance metric that they cooked up in a grad class and tailored specifically to prove their own argument.

i.e. EPM, BPM, VORP, PER, PIE




Overall point: Jokic is undeniably in the conversation.
But he is a product of his environment -- one that doesn't have many comparably sized peers to challenge him.

[reddyplayerone]

This is exactly right. Nostalgia is so powerful, the NBA is far deeper today. Jokic has proven he can survive just fine in the modern matchup attacking league we’re in today. Could Shaq do that? I really just don’t know!”

The irony is that 20 years from now, some kid (who's rocking diapers today) will argue with you that Steph, Lebron and Jokic were all mediocre, no-talent hacks.

And you'll be dismayed and annoyed that a future generation of NBA fans who never actually watched them play, will insist that no one from this generation could ever possibly compete or thrive against their legends -- proven by some advance metric that they cooked up in a grad class and tailored specifically to prove their own argument.

i.e. EPM, BPM, VORP, PER, PIE




Overall point: Jokic is undeniably in the conversation.
But he is a product of his environment -- one that doesn't have many comparably sized peers to challenge him.

Future generations just won't understand how Jokic was really Iron Man plus Chuck Norris

[DCasey91]

Watch on YouTube

;t=16m34s

Shaq would be great. All time player would be great in any era

It's funny in the "inflated" offensive era a big stands alone at the top

In the dead ball era this guy stood alone.

Pure irony.

Also Shaq >> Wilt offensively. No one has the right to be that nimble and powerful at that size.

[dhsilv2]

So Jokic would do the one thing Rodman would have wanted him to do?

Yeah Idk how anyone can contend with such formidable genius the likes of which we just have not seen before!

I never said Jokic wasn't a touch hot headed. He is. He's not beyond a cheap shot. If the league were more forgiving, he'd be more aggressive imo. Jokic isn't some chess player. He's the rocket scientist who does BJJ and thinks it's fun to do keg stands at parties even at near 30.

LMAO I love that this is exactly the fantasy of Jokic people have concocted in their heads which is why we have to suffer conversations like these

Yeah, he's never given us reason to think he's willing to cheap shot...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=Yy8T53X_fx0[/youtube]

[dhsilv2]

Watch on YouTube

;t=16m34s

Shaq would be great. All time player would be great in any era

It's funny in the "inflated" offensive era a big stands alone at the top

In the dead ball era this guy stood alone.

Pure irony.

Also Shaq >> Wilt offensively. No one has the right to be that nimble and powerful at that size.

The wilt stuff is wild. Wilt wasn't an all time offensive player, in THIS scale. He was however a candidate for GOAT defender. People just can't get past their PPG bs or wilt's chasing the assist stats. Shaq's ability to pass and score all at once put him on another level from Wilt on offense. But Wilt was night and day better defensively.

[dhsilv2]

This is exactly right. Nostalgia is so powerful, the NBA is far deeper today. Jokic has proven he can survive just fine in the modern matchup attacking league we’re in today. Could Shaq do that? I really just don’t know!”

The irony is that 20 years from now, some kid (who's rocking diapers today) will argue with you that Steph, Lebron and Jokic were all mediocre, no-talent hacks.

And you'll be dismayed and annoyed that a future generation of NBA fans who never actually watched them play, will insist that no one from this generation could ever possibly compete or thrive against their legends -- proven by some advance metric that they cooked up in a grad class and tailored specifically to prove their own argument.

i.e. EPM, BPM, VORP, PER, PIE




Overall point: Jokic is undeniably in the conversation.
But he is a product of his environment -- one that doesn't have many comparably sized peers to challenge him.

This is so stupid!

The people who made the metrics you're talking about are old...at least relatively. You think John Hollinger who's 53 made PER to show Jokic is better than Jordan (the guy he legit made sure his stat said was the GOAT when he did it?). Or 46 year old Dean Oliver? None of these guys are under 40. I don't know Englemann's age but I'd be shocked if he's young.

I get that metrics can be used poorly and you don't have to agree with everything from them. But this dismissive crap is just stupid. It's even worse given the average age on this forum is like 35-45...nearly nobody here got into basketball from Curry. It was mostly MJ or Kobe. Maybe Bird or Magic. A few perhaps Lebron.

But here's the thing. I hope in 20 years Jokic, Lebron and Curry are no talent hacks and that next gen is just THAT good! And you should to!

[TravisScott55]

Wilt had a season where he averaged 24, 24 and 8

You realise that means nothing in the context of this question ?

Well thats you and you never won anything

[zero rings]

Older NBA fans are the absolute worst in sports. No other “fans” are driven so entirely by their resentment of today’s players, and their insecurities about their childhood heroes.

Jokic has the best touch and vision of any big man ever, maybe any player ever, but apparently he would be nothing special in 1998 - a league where Rik Smits and Dikembe Mutumbo were standout centers. You’ve got to be kidding me…

[JM00n69]

To be fair, you're lumping a bunch of dudes together from different eras spanning three decades.

I'm pretty sure Ewing and Hakeem faced off against every other player on that list.

But...would Jokic dominate on the offensive end playing 30+ games against 1-8 on this list? It's really fun to think about...

Yeah, but again, they faced them at varying points in their career. For example, 1984 Bill Walton is not the same as 1977 Bill Walton. Again, Kareem's defensive skills in the 80s, even when he was still winning Finals MVP, weren't close to where he was in his prime. Hakeem and Ewing were both pretty much washed up by the time Wallace became a starter. And so on.

And yeah, I think when you have the breadth of skills Jokic has -- elite post-up player, elite 3-point shooter, elite playmaker, elite rebounder -- you're going to do just fine against any competition, in any era. His numbers would change, but that's mostly down to differences in pace and playstyle.

Because honestly, when you're including guys like Rik Smits and Vlade Divac on a list, much like somebody else did yesterday with Rony Seikaly and Ervin Johnson, you're somewhat scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Very, very nice players. But Smits was a career 15/6 player who made one All-Star team, never averaged 20 and rates out as a negative defensive player for his career per DBPM. What exactly was he going to do to slow down Jokic?

I assume he's on the list because he was 7'4 and very mobile for his size and the poster is asking how well those players could defend Jokic today.

[Jamaaliver]

This is exactly right. Nostalgia is so powerful, the NBA is far deeper today. Jokic has proven he can survive just fine in the modern matchup attacking league we’re in today. Could Shaq do that? I really just don’t know!”

The irony is that 20 years from now, some kid (who's rocking diapers today) will argue with you that Steph, Lebron and Jokic were all mediocre, no-talent hacks.

And you'll be dismayed and annoyed that a future generation of NBA fans who never actually watched them play, will insist that no one from this generation could ever possibly compete or thrive against their legends -- proven by some advance metric that they cooked up in a grad class and tailored specifically to prove their own argument.

i.e. EPM, BPM, VORP, PER, PIE




Overall point: Jokic is undeniably in the conversation.
But he is a product of his environment -- one that doesn't have many comparably sized peers to challenge him.

This is so stupid!

The people who made the metrics you're talking about are old...at least relatively. You think John Hollinger who's 53 made PER to show Jokic is better than Jordan (the guy he legit made sure his stat said was the GOAT when he did it?).

1. Relax, brother. This is supposed to be a fun debate.


2. This is kind of the point. John Hollinger created PER decades ago...specifically to prove Jordan as the GOAT. He had an agenda and tailored the formula towards that end.

One of the many reasons it's lost legitimacy over the years.

[DCasey91]

Watch on YouTube

I'll finally leave this here. 1:50 alone is some voodoo wizardy. This was in 2021... And Jokic has gone to a new level

Haters always gonna hate even when they are wrong.