Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE — Michael Jordan

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Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE — Michael Jordan 

Post#1 » by AEnigma » Mon Nov 25, 2024 6:14 pm

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1991-92.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 12:30PM CST on Thursday, November 28th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Contrarian votes can be and have been sincere, but they look a lot more sincere when you take the time to fully present your reasoning rather than transparently pretend nothing is amiss.
Doctor MJ wrote:Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

The rules here are that you've got to use the same type of thinking for all 5 votes. I understand putting more thought into #1 than #5, but I don't want PJ Brown votes. Voters do Brown type votes to give a guy an honorable mention. Makes sense if people only care about who finishes 1st, but I've been clear that I want to measure more than that. I've been trying to encourage literal "honorable mentions" to serve that purpose, and I'd ask that people use that as the way they honor guys who did something special but who aren't actually a top 5 guy that year.

There is a significant difference between a properly justified and internally consistent contrarian vote, and a vote whose purpose is to undermine the project itself. Ballots which threaten to do the latter and derail project discussion via blatant vote manipulation are liable to be tossed. If it happens twice, the offending poster will be removed from the project.

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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#2 » by One_and_Done » Mon Nov 25, 2024 7:27 pm

This is going to be an easy vote for me. MJ is #1 and it's not close.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#3 » by trelos6 » Mon Nov 25, 2024 8:18 pm

OPOY

1.Michael Jordan. Top 3 playmaker this year. Decent passer. 29.6 pp75 on +4.8 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +7.3. Scoring volume increased in playoffs and efficiency only dipped slightly.

2.Mark Price. 22.1 pp75 on +7.9 rTS%, pretty good passer, and very good playmaker. Team rOrtg of +5.7

3.John Stockton. It took a while, but Utah is finally a top 4 offense. Stockton was always a good to great playmaker and passer, but I couldn’t get behind him in the top 3 OPOY until he started to drive a better offense overall. 16.3 pp75 on +5.9 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +4. The offense held up reasonably well in the playoffs.



DPOY

1.David Robinson. Anchored the #1 defense in the regular season.

2.Hakeem Olajuwon. Anchored a top 10 defense. Terrific rim protection and one of the best, if not best, steals big men of all time.

3.Patrick Ewing. Anchored the #2 defense in the regular season. It was hard leaving Rodman off. This year he upped his rebounding to crazy heights.


POY

1.Michael Jordan. Great 2 way player. +5.51 OPIPM, +1.35 DPIPM. +6.86 PIPM. 23.23 Wins Added. The only easy pick for this year. MJ at 1 is a given.

2.Patrick Ewing. +1.92 OPIPM, +3.29 DPIPM. +5.21 PIPM. 18.06 Wins Added. 24.2 pp75 on +3.2 rTS%. Would be #3 if not for David Robinson’s injury. Still, fantastic year.

3.David Robinson. Slight penalty for his thumb injury. Still, a fantastic season. +2.69 OPIPM, +5.02 DPIPM. +7.71 PIPM. 16.48 Wins Added. 23 pp75 on +6.6 rTS%.

4.Karl Malone. 28.1 pp75 on +6.8 rTS%. Decent defensively. +4.12 OPIPM, +0.85 DPIPM, +4.96 PIPM. 17.67 Wins Added.

5.Hakeem Olajuwon. If I’m trying to win a title in 1992, and I have the second pick, I’m taking Hakeem. 21.7 pp75 on +2.2 rTS%. Rockets sucked without Hakeem this year (2-10 record). Drexler was close, but that Blazers team was stacked, and Drexler was more of a tip of the spear type of player. Also, I’d probably have Pippen over Drexler, this year was quite hard to rank outside of MJ at 1.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#4 » by AEnigma » Mon Nov 25, 2024 8:30 pm

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Patrick Ewing
2. David Robinson
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
HM: Dennis Rodman


Ewing anchors the league’s second best defence and takes the Bulls to a Game 7. He also plays over 500 minutes more than Hakeem and Robinson. Hakeem misses twelve games, and his team only manages to win two of them, which costs them a playoff spot by a game. Robinson misses fourteen games, and his team wins four of them, which is enough to make the postseason… without Robinson, who is injured and unable to contribute. Robinson takes second for a superior regular season, but he was not so much an outlier that I will ignore Ewing’s enormous advantage in the postseason.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kevin Johnson
3. Tim Hardaway


After a full decade of consecutive wins in this category, Magic’s exit leaves a void on par with Russell’s in 1970. This is not one of Jordan’s absolute best offensive years, but no one else is particularly close to having a more complete season.

Mark Price was probably the top point guard per minute/possession, but Tim Hardaway played 1200 more minutes and was pushing for #1 before an underwhelming postseason upset exit. KJ also played high minutes and led a Suns team that was top five in the regular season and which performed better against the Blazers than the Jazz did, courtesy of one of KJ’s best ever series.

Player of the Year

1. Michael Jordan
2. Patrick Ewing
3. Karl Malone
4. Clyde Drexler
5. Scottie Pippen Hakeem Olajuwon


I have commented before that a truly “era relative” approach would probably mark this as Jordan’s peak, because four perennial top players are suddenly absent from the postseason, giving Jordan more separation from the pack than ever before. Magic is gone, Robinson is injured, and Hakeem’s and Barkley’s teams are unable to provide the support needed to reach the playoffs. Remember, much of the season was spent attempting to elevate Drexler as a legitimate rival to Jordan, and nothing better encapsulates how starved we were for a someone to step up to fill Magic’s absence.

Ewing and Malone were the other two well-established superstars who joined Jordan in the postseason. I am more impressed by the totality of Ewing’s season than I am by the totality of Malone’s. Neither was particularly close to winning a title, but pushing the peak Bulls to a Game 7 is worth more to me than losing in the conference finals against the Blazers.

Segueing into the Blazers, Drexler has his best season and leads a pretty comfortable conference champion. Performs respectably well again the Bulls too. He has good support for the period, with Porter being one of the league’s three best co-stars, but unlike in the prior two years, here I think he truly was one of the five most notable players all season long (even if the second place MVP finish was more about marketing a potential rival in Magic’s absence than about his own individual excellence).

The league’s best co-star was Pippen. His and Grant’s continued improvement allowed the Bulls to yet again elevate their regular season success even as Jordan took a step back from the prior three years. This was the best offensive season Pippen ever had with Jordan. He struggled against the Knicks, but in the Finals he made life difficult for Drexler and cut off any reasonable avenue to an upset.

However, upon further reflection, I think it would be more internally consistent (for my own standards) to take Hakeem here. He is the league’s second-best player with Magic gone. He won enough games on his own to have made the postseason in the eastern conference, which is reasoning I have identified as a positive offsetting factor for 1955 Johnston, 1961/68/69 Oscar, and 1976 Kareem, and which I will use in part to back 2005 Garnett. And while I never want to reward missed postseasons too highly (1976 Kareem needed to win MVP just for me to select him third), a fifth place finish for a prime Hakeem season is penalty enough. He might have won a title in Ewing’s place, but as is, I can only credit him with managing a 40-30 record.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#5 » by IlikeSHAIguys » Tue Nov 26, 2024 2:05 am

1 - Michael Jordan
2 - Patrick Ewing
3 - Hakeem Olajuwon
4 - Clyde Drexler
5 - Scottie Pippen

Feel like this has to be MJ. Ewing took him to 7 but feel like MJ was better for most of the season and i don't know one close series is enough and his stats get worse in that series anyway. 40-30 isn't a bad record and Hakeem is probably really the 2nd best player. Drexler made the final and played Jordan kind of close?

Pippen kind of just the same thing as last time. Better stats in regular season. Worse in playoffs. Team better in regular season and worse in playoffs.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#6 » by penbeast0 » Tue Nov 26, 2024 4:08 am

Chicago is far and away the best team. Jordan has another spectacular year and Pippen should get some looks as a top 5 player as well.

The next group of teams includes Portland, Cleveland, Utah, Golden State, Phoenix, New York, Boston, Detroit, San Antonio, Seattle, the Clippers, the Lakers, and Houston (in that RS order).

David Robinson was named DPOY, Jordan won the scoring title, Rodman the rebounding title, Stockton the assists. Jordan swept the box score compilation stats with David Robinson having the second best showing and John Stockton third. Chicago was the league's best offense, though Utah pushed up to 4th as Blue Edwards and Tyrone Corbin gave them solid play at the 3. San Antonio was the league's best defense with NY, Portland, Chicago, and the Clippers close behind.

POY
1. Michael Jordan
2. David Robinson
3. Patrick Ewing
4. Clyde Drexler
5. Scottie Pippen
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#7 » by One_and_Done » Tue Nov 26, 2024 4:34 am

1. Jordan
Best player in the league by far, on the best team who wins a title. Hard to have an easier vote than this.

2. D.Rob
Despite the injury, I think it’s clear he was the next best player with the departure of Magic Johnson. I don’t think that much of the support cast he had around him. I am reluctant taking a guy who had an injury, but he still played enough and this was basically bad timing. If he’d injured himself earlier, and was fine for the playoffs, would it somehow be better? Barkley and Hakeem didn’t even get their teams to the playoffs, so how can I punish D.Rob for having an injury that caused him to miss the 1st round? They weren’t there to begin with.

3. K.Malone
Strong season that is in contention with D.Rob for #2.

4. Pippen
5. Barkley

I think if you’d given Barkley what Drexler or especially Ewing had, he’d have done better than they did. His impact wasn’t quite as big as the last few years, but he’s still in my top 5. You just felt Barkley more than you did those other guys, he was an offensive wrecking ball who you couldn’t match up with.

I find Ewing to be very overrated. He had an astonishingly good support cast this year, and only won 51 games with it. Yeh, they gave the Bulls a good fight in round 2, but you could say the same for the 2008 Hawks against Boston. The Bulls were never losing that series, as the game 7 curbstomp made clear. If Pippen had Ewing’s team around him, they’d have been a 60 win team probably. Pippen had really grown as a player by this point, and deserves props for his huge 2 way ability.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#8 » by Djoker » Tue Nov 26, 2024 5:33 am

Only have MJ plus minus for this one...

Michael Jordan

Regular Season - 55 games (partial)

ON: +13.8 Net
OFF: -11.0
ON-OFF: +24.8

Playoffs - 22 games

ON: +7.5
OFF: +3.1
ON-OFF: +4.4
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#9 » by AEnigma » Tue Nov 26, 2024 5:54 am

Djoker wrote:Only have MJ plus minus for this one...

Playoffs - 22 games

ON: +7.5
OFF: +3.1
ON-OFF: +4.4

I feel like I recall the off being higher.

We also do have Barkley’s, per usual. +0.3 on, -5.7 off (or something like that).
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#10 » by OhayoKD » Tue Nov 26, 2024 6:52 am

Djoker wrote:Only have MJ plus minus for this one...

Michael Jordan

Regular Season - 55 games (partial)

ON: +13.8 Net
OFF: -11.0
ON-OFF: +24.8

Playoffs - 22 games

ON: +7.5
OFF: +3.1
ON-OFF: +4.4

This has been brought up before but for posterity, the source of plus-minus here is dipper who

-> posted massively inflated 4th quarter plus-minus for players for this era (including MJ)

Spoiler:
OhayoKD wrote:Yeah, not sure about those 92 marks:
There is no way that +45 on/off net rating is remotely accurate.

1. Dipper had similarly high on/off estimates for Barkley (+36.3) and Hakeem (+34.5) but those estimates were disproven with Harvey Pollack's full season data.

Barkley net on/off
1987: +7.9
1988: +2.7
1989: +11.0
1990: +8.3
1991: +8.8
1992: +6.0
1993: ?
1994: +6.8
1995: +6.8
1996: +7.8

Hakeem net on/off
1994: +14.5
1995: +9.0
1996: +10.3

In none of the 12 full seasons did they come anywhere near the +35 on/off estimate over the same period.

2. There has only been a handful of +20 on/off net seasons in the last 25 years, none above +25. A +35 or + 45 on/off was never realistic in the first place, especially not by 3 players at the same time in just the few seasons prior. This was most likely just a calculation error somewhere in Dipper's spreadsheet which was repeated when he plugged in new numbers for different players.



-> in the same post posted massively inflated isolation data for Jordan:

Spoiler:
Let's get through this quickly
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1286698

^^^^ This is the data used by reputable historian JimmyHighRoller to create this graph trending on twitter and...here:
ballzboyee wrote:Youtuber JxmyHighroller tracked and then compared Jordan's left hand points per iso efficiency against the league's best iso scorers today while using either hand. Turns out Jordan's iso efficiency with only his left hand is far superior to any player in the league even removing Jordan's dominant hand in the comparison. Jordan's ability to finish with his left hand was basically unparalleled in the history of basketball for a wing iso finsher.


Despite being labelled as such, the data Jimmy High Roller is using...is not even Iso data:
Jordan's shooting tendencies & effectiveness when making a move off the dribble either to the left or right. Also recorded turnovers in each of these instances, including stolen pass outs, offensive fouls, getting stripped by the defense, or being forced into a jump ball (and possession lost).

Moreover, the drive numbers are different, Dipper either cooked them up or only counted blowbyes( synergy counts if they walk you off, or if you step back).

These numbers don’t track either if you reference it with itself.


Do with that as you will.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#11 » by 70sFan » Tue Nov 26, 2024 11:23 am

One_and_Done wrote:I find Ewing to be very overrated. He had an astonishingly good support cast this year, and only won 51 games with it.

What am I reading here...
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#12 » by One_and_Done » Tue Nov 26, 2024 11:32 am

70sFan wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:I find Ewing to be very overrated. He had an astonishingly good support cast this year, and only won 51 games with it.

What am I reading here...

X-Man, Oakley, Mason, Starks, M.Jax, G.Wilkins, etc. That was a very deep team indeed. You realise 5 of those guys made all-star teams right? Like, they were mostly borderline all-star guys of course, but how many teams have even 2 all-star type support players in their prime? Never mind all this.

He had a far deeper support cast than Jordan for instance. Hakeem had 1 all-star type guy on his team. Barkley probably has zero, unless Hawkins counts.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#13 » by Special_Puppy » Tue Nov 26, 2024 2:51 pm

[tweet][/tweet]
One_and_Done wrote:
70sFan wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:I find Ewing to be very overrated. He had an astonishingly good support cast this year, and only won 51 games with it.

What am I reading here...

X-Man, Oakley, Mason, Starks, M.Jax, G.Wilkins, etc. That was a very deep team indeed. You realise 5 of those guys made all-star teams right? Like, they were mostly borderline all-star guys of course, but how many teams have even 2 all-star type support players in their prime? Never mind all this.

He had a far deeper support cast than Jordan for instance. Hakeem had 1 all-star type guy on his team. Barkley probably has zero, unless Hawkins counts.


Jackson and Starks are the only players worth a damn on that team besides Ewing. Ewing’s supporting casts in 1993+1994 were the only ones I’d classify as legitimately great. Jordan’s supporting cast wasn’t deep, but Pippen and Grant were so awesome this season that I think it’s fair to say that this is a legit great supporting cast for 23
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#14 » by One_and_Done » Tue Nov 26, 2024 7:35 pm

Special_Puppy wrote:[tweet][/tweet]
One_and_Done wrote:
70sFan wrote:What am I reading here...

X-Man, Oakley, Mason, Starks, M.Jax, G.Wilkins, etc. That was a very deep team indeed. You realise 5 of those guys made all-star teams right? Like, they were mostly borderline all-star guys of course, but how many teams have even 2 all-star type support players in their prime? Never mind all this.

He had a far deeper support cast than Jordan for instance. Hakeem had 1 all-star type guy on his team. Barkley probably has zero, unless Hawkins counts.


Jackson and Starks are the only players worth a damn on that team besides Ewing. Ewing’s supporting casts in 1993+1994 were the only ones I’d classify as legitimately great. Jordan’s supporting cast wasn’t deep, but Pippen and Grant were so awesome this season that I think it’s fair to say that this is a legit great supporting cast for 23

That's crazy. Oakley was a super effective role player, to the point he made an all-star team for his defensive game. That's not easy to do when you're not putting up stats, not unless you deserve it. He was a brutal defender and enforcer, and tough on the boards. He wouldn't be as good in today's game, but in the early 90s he was a killer at the 4.

Once he was allowed to play a bigger role on a less stacked team, Anthony Mason was an all-nba teamer. He was able to score, pass, defend and rebound at a high level. He made multiple all-star teams, an all-nba team, and got MVP votes two separate years.

X-Man was one of the best wing defenders of his era, as well as an Artest style enforcer. He was also a good offensive player, and had led rag tag underdog teams on upset playoff runs. He was probably the best player on a WCF team.

All 3 of those guys were probably better than Starks, they were certainly all better than M.Jax. even Wilkins was an above average player.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#15 » by tsherkin » Tue Nov 26, 2024 7:52 pm

One_and_Done wrote:That's crazy. Oakley was a super effective role player, to the point he made an all-star team for his defensive game. That's not easy to do when you're not putting up stats, not unless you deserve it. He was a brutal defender and enforcer, and tough on the boards. He wouldn't be as good in today's game, but in the early 90s he was a killer at the 4.


Super effective rebounder and an era-appropriate physical defender, sure. Dumb as a bag of bricks on offense, though, which was a theme for those Knicks. Lots of good defensive help; almost none on O.

Once he was allowed to play a bigger role on a less stacked team, Anthony Mason was an all-nba teamer. He was able to score, pass, defend and rebound at a high level. He made multiple all-star teams, an all-nba team, and got MVP votes two separate years.


Those MVP votes can't be taken seriously. Literally 7 points and no first-place nominations in 97, and 1 point with no first-place nominations in 01. He was a 1-time All-Star and he made a single All-NBA team. Scored more than 14.6 ppg twice in his career, and one year in took him over 43 mpg to do it, the other almost 41.

Mase was pretty good, but let's not overplay what he was. He was in his best role when he was coming off the bench. ANd more importantly, in 1992, he was a 7/7 guy playing about 27 mpg and sucking at the foul line. From 93-01, he was pretty solidly the same guy but for variations in minutes. About a 12/9/3.5 guy PER36. Pretty good overall, not that awesome on offense but decent given his volume. Huge, huge, huge minutes later on in his career inflating his averages.

X-Man was one of the best wing defenders of his era, as well as an Artest style enforcer. He was also a good offensive player, and had led rag tag underdog teams on upset playoff runs. He was probably the best player on a WCF team.


He wasn't Seattle X in 92. He was like a 14/6/2 defensive specialist who, as he did in all but two seasons of his career, scored below league average efficiency.

New York loaded up on defenders and did not have a ton of particularly competent offensive help around Ewing.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#16 » by OhayoKD » Tue Nov 26, 2024 7:54 pm

Kola's Ballot:
Spoiler:
1992

Michael Jordan - (Grain Version) Kashimo
Grade: Special 1
Hoop Expansion - Collinearity Merchant

Ball Techniques:
+ Cursed Chucker
+ Mid-Range Kitchen
+ Gifted Gambler; Reverse Ball-Technique; Fastbreak Frenzy
+ Bucket-Getter - Special Grade
+ Stoppah - Grade 2

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for a fake DPOY, Jordan can only win playoff games with Pippen

Key Chapters:
+ Chicago School wins Conference Cross-over

Patrick Ewing - (Grain Version) Reggie
Grade: 2
Hoop Expansion - None

Ball Techniques:
+ Dunk Devourer
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 2 3
+ Rim-Protection - Grade 1
+ Stoppah - Grade 2
+ Board-Bringer - Grade 1

Key Chapters:
+ New York School almost beats Chicago School
+ Hooper Flash Flurry vs Chicago School, Rim-Protection - Special Grade

Scottie Pippen - (Grain Version) Mai
Grade: 2
Hoop Expansion (Incomplete) - Perimeter Purgatory

Ball Techniques:
+ Biggy Wingy
+ Powah Passer
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 4
+ Rim-Protection - Grade 2
+ Stoppah - Special Grade
+ Floor-General - Grade 2
+ Board-Bringer - Grade 2

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for playing with MJ, everyone will remember Pippen played with MJ

Key Chapters:
+ Chicago wins Conference Cross-over


David Robinson - Nanami
Grade: 1 2
Hoop Expansion - Death by Duncan

Ball Techniques:
+ Rim Robber
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 2 3
+ Rim-Protection - Special Grade
+ Stoppah - Grade 4
+ Board-Bringer - Grade 1

Key Chapters:
- Sealed vs Phoenix School

Hakeem Olajuwon - (Grain Version) Maki
Grade: Special 2
Hoop Expansion - Center Cemetery

Ball Techniques
+ Russellian Remix
+ Post-up Nightmare; Reverse Ball-Technique - Dream Shot; Maximum Output - A Three-Man’s Dream
+ A Dreamer’s Postseason - 2 arc use
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 2 Grade 3
+ Rim-Protection - Special Grade Grade 1
+ Stoppah - Special Grade; Reverse Ball-Technique - Running Robinsons - 1 arc use Grade 1
+ Board-Bringer - Grade 1

Baller Vow
+ In exchange for dominating Micheal Jordan in Baller-Battles, Hakeem may never face MJ in a battle that matters

Key Chapters:
- Sealed for 10 battles
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL
DirtyDez
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#17 » by DirtyDez » Tue Nov 26, 2024 8:24 pm

Isn’t 92’ MJ considered the gold standard for all-around guard play?

Also, is Mullin over Pippen for 1st team all-nba that year as crazy as it sounds?
fromthetop321 wrote:I got Lebron number 1, he is also leading defensive player of the year. Curry's game still reminds me of Jeremy Lin to much.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#18 » by AEnigma » Tue Nov 26, 2024 8:50 pm

DirtyDez wrote:Isn’t 92’ MJ considered the gold standard for all-around guard play?

Maybe? If people felt Jordan in 1992 was a demonstrably better shooter or defender than he was in 1990/91, which I personally do not, I guess that would lend itself to the statement, but in general I do not find that “standard” too meaningful.

Also, is Mullin over Pippen for 1st team all-nba that year as crazy as it sounds?

He led the league in minutes as the lead scorer on a 55-win team which improved after trading all-star Mitch Richmond for a decent rookie. I do not think he was better than Pippen, but that is nothing abnormal for award voting.

And for what it is worth he was second in minutes on the Dream Team, despite being its least heralded member. (Pippen was third.)
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#19 » by Cavsfansince84 » Tue Nov 26, 2024 8:53 pm

DirtyDez wrote:Isn’t 92’ MJ considered the gold standard for all-around guard play?

Also, is Mullin over Pippen for 1st team all-nba that year as crazy as it sounds?


I don't think its that crazy. I mean sure you can say Pippen was better but by the standards of all nba voting Pippen was just emerging from MJ's standard and Mullin was really good. I think if you needed a scorer and were building a team Mullin was as good or better a choice.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1991-92 UPDATE 

Post#20 » by One_and_Done » Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:02 pm

So, agree that the MVP votes Mason got aren’t indicative of where he ranked as a player. What they are indicative of was that he was a good player, which is the point. The post I am replying to described everyone except Mark Jackson and Starks as “not worth a damn”. In reality, probably all 3 of Oaks, Mason, and X-Man were better players than those 2, depending on whether your team really needed a point guard or shot creator I guess. In this case though, it’s not an either/or. Ewing had both the steady play of M.Jax, the shot creation and cutting of Starks, and the defensive presence of Oak, Mase and X-Man.

I don’t know that I’d want Mason playing the role he had where he was putting up 16-11-6 on 585 TS%, but I would definitely want Mason on my team over Starks or M.Jax. Certainly I would in 1992, where it was slow it down, grind it out play. Either way, Mason was a great player to have, and a fringe all-star calibre guy for that era. Oak was too. Mase was coming off the bench because of how deep the Knicks were, not because he was a bench player.

That leads me to X-Man. I find your description of him pretty disingenuous. You call him a “14-6-2 defensive specialist”. Well, yeh, on the Knicks those were his numbers, because there’s only 1 ball to go around and when you’re on a deep team some guys will have to sacrifice their stats. His situation is not unlike Jrue on Boston. Jrue didn’t get worse when he got to Boston, his role just changed. He was still as talented as he was in Milwaukee. So who was X-Man before he had to sacrifice his stats in NY? Well, as I alluded to, he was basically a better version of Ron Artest. He’d give you 20ppg scoring on average-ish efficiency, but combine that with elite defense. He was the star of several notable playoff runs, including the Sonics run to the WCF in 1987. He was certainly an all-star talent, and at age 28 he was in his prime.

That Knicks cast was fabulous, no matter how much quibbling one can do on the edges. These criticisms that Ewing still needed more seem absurd. Ewing has all that, and he still needs a Ray Allen type to win? Ewing is supposed to be providing a lot of the scoring, and I’d say for that era the offensive help he had was fine. His defensive support was best in the league. That shouldn’t result in a measly 51 wins if you’re a top 5 player this year.
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