Can we safely say Jokic is the best offensive player ever?

[dhsilv2]

The irony is that 20 years from now, some kid (who's rocking diapers today) will argue with you that Steph, Lebron and Jokic were all mediocre, no-talent hacks.

And you'll be dismayed and annoyed that a future generation of NBA fans who never actually watched them play, will insist that no one from this generation could ever possibly compete or thrive against their legends -- proven by some advance metric that they cooked up in a grad class and tailored specifically to prove their own argument.

i.e. EPM, BPM, VORP, PER, PIE




Overall point: Jokic is undeniably in the conversation.
But he is a product of his environment -- one that doesn't have many comparably sized peers to challenge him.

This is so stupid!

The people who made the metrics you're talking about are old...at least relatively. You think John Hollinger who's 53 made PER to show Jokic is better than Jordan (the guy he legit made sure his stat said was the GOAT when he did it?).

1. Relax, brother. This is supposed to be a fun debate.


2. This is kind of the point. John Hollinger created PER decades ago...specifically to prove Jordan as the GOAT. He had an agenda and tailored the formula towards that end.

One of the many reasons it's lost legitimacy over the years.

This is also false. He most certainly didn't do it to prove Jordan was the GOAT. he assumed that was the right choice and built a metric to show it. That's a night and day different thing.

If I built a metric and it came back and said Eric Dampier was the GOAT big man...I'd restart it. You should have some level of understanding of a sport to do these things.

But nobody cared about John's PER until he also used it and it had some fairly good PREDICTIVE power, meaning he could forecast future results (the gold standard of these metrics).

Discussion are fun when people don't make crazy statements.

[Jamaaliver]

You think John Hollinger who's 53 made PER to show Jokic is better than Jordan (the guy he legit made sure his stat said was the GOAT when he did it?).

This is also false. He most certainly didn't do it to prove Jordan was the GOAT....he assumed that was the right choice and built a metric to show it. That's a night and day different thing.

What?!?

[Sweet Serenity]

Wilt had a season where he averaged 24, 24 and 8

You realise that means nothing in the context of this question ?

Well thats you and you never won anything

Your response makes absolutely no sense.

[reddyplayerone]

Older NBA fans are the absolute worst in sports. No other “fans” are driven so entirely by their resentment of today’s players, and their insecurities about their childhood heroes.

Jokic has the best touch and vision of any big man ever, maybe any player ever, but apparently he would be nothing special in 1998 - a league where Rik Smits and Dikembe Mutumbo were standout centers. You’ve got to be kidding me…

Do other sports have younger fans who constantly dismiss anyone they didn't get to see live as "plumbers and firemen?"

[Johnny Firpo]

Older NBA fans are the absolute worst in sports. No other “fans” are driven so entirely by their resentment of today’s players, and their insecurities about their childhood heroes.

Jokic has the best touch and vision of any big man ever, maybe any player ever, but apparently he would be nothing special in 1998 - a league where Rik Smits and Dikembe Mutumbo were standout centers. You’ve got to be kidding me…

Do other sports have younger fans who constantly dismiss anyone they didn't get to see live as "plumbers and firemen?"

I'm not a huge NHL or MLB fan, but I've heard similar things on that, and I know for a fact that what you describe is present in NFL fan circles, maybe even more so than in the NBA. It's also similar (the NFL) in that it's hated for its offensive rule changes/catering (which, arguably, much worse than it is in the NBA by the way). But I guess there is a big difference in that you could always legit argue that NFL should not exist in this form, because it causes serious injuries and likely shortens its players' lifespans or at least quality of life to a much higher degree than any other sport (not named bodybuilding or combat sports). But back to the topic, it's a normal behavior, and I would say I'm guilty of it, only not regarding the NBA, but soccer and probably tennis too.

[Camby_Bamby]

Joker is literally one of the best players I’ve ever seen play basketball at that position. However, I’m led to believe if he played against the Shaqs, Amare Stoudemaires, Hakeems, Dwight Howards or Garnetts of the world, he’d be outhustled, resort to fouling and be subsequently benched due to fouls trouble.

Essentially, we’d never get to see his offensive talent because he’d be outworked so much on the defensive end.

With that said, I don’t think we’ll see another player with this style, body, and skillset.

[ty 4191]

Older NBA fans are the absolute worst in sports. No other “fans” are driven so entirely by their resentment of today’s players, and their insecurities about their childhood heroes.

Jokic has the best touch and vision of any big man ever, maybe any player ever, but apparently he would be nothing special in 1998 - a league where Rik Smits and Dikembe Mutumbo were standout centers. You’ve got to be kidding me…

I'm 45 and I wish I could "AND 1!" this 1000 times.

1990's NBA skill and athleticism and globalization wise was ABSOLUTE TRASH compared to today's NBA. League expanded from 23-29 teams in a 7 year span and it was JUST AMERICANS. Now there are 140 international players from FORTY countries around the globe playing today in the NBA. And the last SIX MVPs ARE NON AMERiCAN BORN.

AND, 40% of the All Stars the last 10 years have been non American!!

Globalization makes for far better players, people! The talent pool is TEN TIMES the size it was in 1998 when Michael Jordan retired!!!!

“Nostalgia is denial. Denial of the painful present. The name for this denial is 'Golden Age Thinking' - the erroneous notion that a different time period is better than the one ones living in - its a flaw in the romantic imagination of those people who find it very difficult to cope with the present.”

[reddyplayerone]

Older NBA fans are the absolute worst in sports. No other “fans” are driven so entirely by their resentment of today’s players, and their insecurities about their childhood heroes.

Jokic has the best touch and vision of any big man ever, maybe any player ever, but apparently he would be nothing special in 1998 - a league where Rik Smits and Dikembe Mutumbo were standout centers. You’ve got to be kidding me…

Do other sports have younger fans who constantly dismiss anyone they didn't get to see live as "plumbers and firemen?"

I'm not a huge NHL or MLB fan, but I've heard similar things on that, and I know for a fact that what you describe is present in NFL fan circles, maybe even more so than in the NBA. It's also similar (the NFL) in that it's hated for its offensive rule changes/catering (which, arguably, much worse than it is in the NBA by the way). But I guess there is a big difference in that you could always legit argue that NFL should not exist in this form, because it causes serious injuries and likely shortens its players' lifespans or at least quality of life to a much higher degree than any other sport (not named bodybuilding or combat sports). But back to the topic, it's a normal behavior, and I would say I'm guilty of it, only not regarding the NBA, but soccer and probably tennis too.

Yeah see I really don't watch enough of any other sport to know, so this is illuminating for me and Idk it just strikes me as a very sadly incurious way to interact or engage with anything really.

And I think that's true when it comes from either direction too like I think old heads saying everything new inherently sucks is just as much of a waste of time

[Infinite Llamas]

Joker is literally one of the best players I’ve ever seen play basketball at that position. However, I’m led to believe if he played against the Shaqs, Amare Stoudemaires, Hakeems, Dwight Howards or Garnetts of the world, he’d be outhustled, resort to fouling and be subsequently benched due to fouls trouble.

Essentially, we’d never get to see his offensive talent because he’d be outworked so much on the defensive end.

With that said, I don’t think we’ll see another player with this style, body, and skillset.

Yao is slower than Jokic and he thrived against most of those guys. I feel Shaq and Dream would hate having to play Jokic out on the perimeter too. Jokic would equally work them.

[LeBronSpaghetti]

This is exactly right. Nostalgia is so powerful, the NBA is far deeper today. Jokic has proven he can survive just fine in the modern matchup attacking league we’re in today. Could Shaq do that? I really just don’t know!”

The irony is that 20 years from now, some kid (who's rocking diapers today) will argue with you that Steph, Lebron and Jokic were all mediocre, no-talent hacks.

And you'll be dismayed and annoyed that a future generation of NBA fans who never actually watched them play, will insist that no one from this generation could ever possibly compete or thrive against their legends -- proven by some advance metric that they cooked up in a grad class and tailored specifically to prove their own argument.

i.e. EPM, BPM, VORP, PER, PIE




Overall point: Jokic is undeniably in the conversation.
But he is a product of his environment -- one that doesn't have many comparably sized peers to challenge him.

Except I never said the older generation was a bunch of mediocre no talent hacks. I simply said that you are grossly underrating modern big men and that Jokic would dominate any era.

[dhsilv2]

You think John Hollinger who's 53 made PER to show Jokic is better than Jordan (the guy he legit made sure his stat said was the GOAT when he did it?).

This is also false. He most certainly didn't do it to prove Jordan was the GOAT....he assumed that was the right choice and built a metric to show it. That's a night and day different thing.

What?!?

I'm at a loss as to your question. The stat said something. then we used the word "prove'. Obviously not the same. Are you 13?

[reddyplayerone]

Older NBA fans are the absolute worst in sports. No other “fans” are driven so entirely by their resentment of today’s players, and their insecurities about their childhood heroes.

Jokic has the best touch and vision of any big man ever, maybe any player ever, but apparently he would be nothing special in 1998 - a league where Rik Smits and Dikembe Mutumbo were standout centers. You’ve got to be kidding me…

I'm 45 and I wish I could "AND 1!" this 1000 times.

1990's NBA skill and athleticism and globalization wise was ABSOLUTE TRASH compared to today's NBA. League expanded from 23-29 teams in a 7 year span and it was JUST AMERICANS. Now there are 140 international players from FORTY countries around the globe playing today in the NBA. And the last SIX MVPs ARE NON AMERiCAN BORN.

AND, 40% of the All Stars the last 10 years have been non American!!

Globalization makes for far better players, people! The talent pool is TEN TIMES the size it was in 1998 when Michael Jordan retired!!!!

“Nostalgia is denial. Denial of the painful present. The name for this denial is 'Golden Age Thinking' - the erroneous notion that a different time period is better than the one ones living in - its a flaw in the romantic imagination of those people who find it very difficult to cope with the present.”

Yeah this argument never made sense to me either considering it really doesn't make a difference whether someone is from America or Greece or Serbia and like we really do not have to pretend there were zero international players in the league prior to like Dirk or something

[Camby_Bamby]

Joker is literally one of the best players I’ve ever seen play basketball at that position. However, I’m led to believe if he played against the Shaqs, Amare Stoudemaires, Hakeems, Dwight Howards or Garnetts of the world, he’d be outhustled, resort to fouling and be subsequently benched due to fouls trouble.

Essentially, we’d never get to see his offensive talent because he’d be outworked so much on the defensive end.

With that said, I don’t think we’ll see another player with this style, body, and skillset.

Yao is slower than Jokic and he thrived against most of those guys. I feel Shaq and Dream would hate having to play Jokic out on the perimeter too. Jokic would equally work them.

lol @ thrived. Not sure about that, but I get your point.

I’d argue that Jokic is in less shape than Yao. Two entirely different games by the way. Jokic would do better than Yao. lol. Not sure why you even brought him up.

And Jokic isn’t infallible. Dude misses a LOT of box outs and gets outworked on the board at weird times. It’s a different era now.

This is all coming from someone that has Jokic as a top 3 big man of all time.

[JM00n69]

Older NBA fans are the absolute worst in sports. No other “fans” are driven so entirely by their resentment of today’s players, and their insecurities about their childhood heroes.

Jokic has the best touch and vision of any big man ever, maybe any player ever, but apparently he would be nothing special in 1998 - a league where Rik Smits and Dikembe Mutumbo were standout centers. You’ve got to be kidding me…

I think it's best to try and compare these players at their peak if they'd be on a team today and see how they'd stack up on a current era roster and coaching/gameplan around them. Swap Nurkic for Rik or Mutombo on PHX or Shaq/Ewing/DRob to 76rs for Embiid. Just looking at defense against Jokic they'd all be better.

Also give Mutombo some respect, was one of the best rim protectors while having to guard the beasts in the low post era that spammed the low post ups. Man took a beating every game. On his best years he's be a starter on any team today just for his defense and rebounding. Pretty sure he was DPOY for 3yrs straight and had some ridiculous blocks/rebounds per game.

[hardenASG13]

Jokic is one of the best ever.

No argument there.

Is he the singular best offensive player ever?
IDK

For one thing, offensive numbers are inflated in this modern era. There's no disputing that fact.

Also, I suspect that a part of Jokic's dominance is that he doesn't have many peers at his size/position to challenge him on either end of the court.

Could Jokic average these numbers in a league where he had to face off against:

• Kareem,
• Hakeem,
• Robert Parish,
• Bill Walton,
• Pat Ewing,
• David Robinson,
• Shaquille,
• Tim Duncan,
• Dikembe,
• or Ben Wallace every week?

It's really hard to say...

Yes , the offensive numbers in this era are inflated. Yet, they keep posting them, over and over and over. Eye test is also disregarded in this crowd, as is playoff success, marquee playoff moments, takeover factor, etc. To many here it's just numbers on a sheet as the end all be all. It's why so many here were shocked when this greatest offensive player ever lost yet again last year to a quality playoff opponent, an opponent that had never reached the second round and went on to lose in 5 to Dallas, who was completely outclassed in the finals.

I find it laughable that people who follow the league so closely think the best player ever is just the guy who is arguably the best now. This 5 year stretch has been putrid in terms of stars and great teams.

And you keep posting this "eye test" argument about taking over games over and over again with no actual comparisons to back it up, or consistency in what you mean by that.

The taking over games and series thing is pretty self evident. His best series win is vs the bubble Clippers. I've seen people argue that was a championship team, but then why did Denver lose 4-1 in the WCF if LAC was so close? Ive simply never seen him take over a playoff series against a quality opponent and win, and will need to see that, repeatedly, before Id consider him to be the best ive ever seen. I'll continue to use Lebron as a comparison. Scores 48 including the last 30 or something vs. Detroit in the 2007 ECF game 5. Puts the nail in the coffin vs. the big 3 Celtics, with a flawless 45 in the garden in the 2012 ECF game 6 facing elimination, with as much pressure as anyone ever faced in that game since Miami lost in 2011. Scored 40 in back to back games (5 and 6) in the 2016 NBA finals vs the 73 win warriors, both facing elimination then had 33/11/6 in game 7. What are Jokics signature playoff moments? Beating the 23 Lakers?




I've explained my eye test reasoning many times. Jokic can't dribble in the half court without turning his back to the defender. He's a load on the block, but largely plays from the top of the key. Many of his assists are just dribble handoffs, rather than him breaking down a defense with a downhill dribble. When he receives a pocket pass for that floater, it's generally money. His individual shot creation ability is lacking compared to Lebron/MJ etc. He doesn't have the gravity in the post of a Shaq. He's really good, but the best currently, competing with the likes of Luka and Giannis, does not mean he's the best ever. Anyone else in the best ever offensive player discussion, with his playoff resume.....well I can't say because they aren't in the discussion. He has lots to prove before he belongs as well imo.

[JM00n69]

Yes , the offensive numbers in this era are inflated. Yet, they keep posting them, over and over and over. Eye test is also disregarded in this crowd, as is playoff success, marquee playoff moments, takeover factor, etc. To many here it's just numbers on a sheet as the end all be all. It's why so many here were shocked when this greatest offensive player ever lost yet again last year to a quality playoff opponent, an opponent that had never reached the second round and went on to lose in 5 to Dallas, who was completely outclassed in the finals.

I find it laughable that people who follow the league so closely think the best player ever is just the guy who is arguably the best now. This 5 year stretch has been putrid in terms of stars and great teams.

And you keep posting this "eye test" argument about taking over games over and over again with no actual comparisons to back it up, or consistency in what you mean by that.

The taking over games and series thing is pretty self evident. His best series win is vs the bubble Clippers. I've seen people argue that was a championship team, but then why did Denver lose 4-1 in the WCF if LAC was so close? Ive simply never seen him take over a playoff series against a quality opponent and win, and will need to see that, repeatedly, before Id consider him to be the best ive ever seen. I'll continue to use Lebron as a comparison. Scores 48 including the last 30 or something vs. Detroit in the 2007 ECF game 5. Puts the nail in the coffin vs. the big 3 Celtics, with a flawless 45 in the garden in the 2012 ECF game 6 facing elimination, with as much pressure as anyone ever faced in that game since Miami lost in 2011. Scored 40 in back to back games (5 and 6) in the 2016 NBA finals vs the 73 win warriors, both facing elimination then had 33/11/6 in game 7. What are Jokics signature playoff moments? Beating the 23 Lakers?




I've explained my eye test reasoning many times. Jokic can't dribble in the half court without turning his back to the defender. He's a load on the block, but largely plays from the top of the key. Many of his assists are just dribble handoffs, rather than him breaking down a defense with a downhill dribble. When he receives a pocket pass for that floater, it's generally money. His individual shot creation ability is lacking compared to Lebron/MJ etc. He doesn't have the gravity in the post of a Shaq. He's really good, but the best currently, competing with the likes of Luka and Giannis, does not mean he's the best ever. Anyone else in the best ever offensive player discussion, with his playoff resume.....well I can't say because they aren't in the discussion. He has lots to prove before he belongs as well imo.

DAL and MIL would be much better if you'd swap Luka or G for him. Not even debatable. Jokic is a harder cover than either due to his size and getting inside against anyone.

[nomansland]

Older NBA fans are the absolute worst in sports. No other “fans” are driven so entirely by their resentment of today’s players, and their insecurities about their childhood heroes.

Jokic has the best touch and vision of any big man ever, maybe any player ever, but apparently he would be nothing special in 1998 - a league where Rik Smits and Dikembe Mutumbo were standout centers. You’ve got to be kidding me…

I'm 45 and I wish I could "AND 1!" this 1000 times.

1990's NBA skill and athleticism and globalization wise was ABSOLUTE TRASH compared to today's NBA. League expanded from 23-29 teams in a 7 year span and it was JUST AMERICANS. Now there are 140 international players from FORTY countries around the globe playing today in the NBA. And the last SIX MVPs ARE NON AMERiCAN BORN.

AND, 40% of the All Stars the last 10 years have been non American!!

Globalization makes for far better players, people! The talent pool is TEN TIMES the size it was in 1998 when Michael Jordan retired!!!!

“Nostalgia is denial. Denial of the painful present. The name for this denial is 'Golden Age Thinking' - the erroneous notion that a different time period is better than the one ones living in - its a flaw in the romantic imagination of those people who find it very difficult to cope with the present.”

Tangential to the argument but relevant to something I've seen 100 times on realgm: your point is exactly why there is room to expand to at least 32 teams. The talent pool is so much bigger and will only continue to grow.

[zero rings]

Older NBA fans are the absolute worst in sports. No other “fans” are driven so entirely by their resentment of today’s players, and their insecurities about their childhood heroes.

Jokic has the best touch and vision of any big man ever, maybe any player ever, but apparently he would be nothing special in 1998 - a league where Rik Smits and Dikembe Mutumbo were standout centers. You’ve got to be kidding me…

Do other sports have younger fans who constantly dismiss anyone they didn't get to see live as "plumbers and firemen?"

I don’t know. I do know that NFL fans don’t delude themselves into thinking Bart Starr was a better football player than Patrick Maholmes. It’s only NBA fans that think pro athletes are getting worse over time, which is laughably stupid.

The “plumbers and firemen” talk is a tongue-in-cheek response to the insufferable boomer posting we have to endure.

[srhcan]

he has not even surpassed Steph yet

[reddyplayerone]

Older NBA fans are the absolute worst in sports. No other “fans” are driven so entirely by their resentment of today’s players, and their insecurities about their childhood heroes.

Jokic has the best touch and vision of any big man ever, maybe any player ever, but apparently he would be nothing special in 1998 - a league where Rik Smits and Dikembe Mutumbo were standout centers. You’ve got to be kidding me…

Do other sports have younger fans who constantly dismiss anyone they didn't get to see live as "plumbers and firemen?"

I don’t know. I do know that NFL fans don’t delude themselves into thinking Bart Starr was a better football player than Patrick Maholmes. It’s only NBA fans that think pro athletes are getting worse over time, which is laughably stupid.

The “plumbers and firemen” talk is a tongue-in-cheek response to the insufferable boomer posting we have to endure.

Yeah but it's not tongue-in-cheek at all it just makes people sound dumb and insufferable tbh

I don't think many NBA fans think NBA athletes have gotten worse so much as they don't think they've made some inexplicably massive leap forward.

Idk seems like a willful misinterpretation of what people are actually trying to express