Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[Raps in 4]

This poor guy has no spacing still in 2024.. Horrible roster construction.. He is playing in hard mode on our current team... Guess it's good for tanking

IQ, Dick, JaKobe, and Kelly were not playing.

[nikster]

This poor guy has no spacing still in 2024.. Horrible roster construction.. He is playing in hard mode on our current team... Guess it's good for tanking

IQ, Dick, JaKobe, and Kelly were not playing.

And even Brown is an upgrade over guys like Shead

[ATLTimekeeper]

His trajectory has changed with the quick release from range and midrange. I can say hes on Siakam tier now.

I dunno, Siakam would cook Georges Niang so bad he would hit the bench and no one would talk to him Scottie couldn't get by him. Scottie said he just worked on his midrange package, but his handle is still too weak for what we want him to be.

Anyway, this is still an upward trajectory. Lots of time left in his career to improve.

[anotherhomer]

His trajectory has changed with the quick release from range and midrange. I can say hes on Siakam tier now.

I dunno, Siakam would cook Georges Niang so bad he would hit the bench and no one would talk to him Scottie couldn't get by him. Scottie said he just worked on his midrange package, but his handle is still too weak for what we want him to be.

Anyway, this is still an upward trajectory. Lots of time left in his career to improve.

i wouldn't expect a huge jump but something that makes him a bit better

he's still a boris diaw, draymond green type mode of player, but a really good version

[will]

Scottish glasses.

[tsherkin]

RJ was too much dead weight to carry

Basically no one shot well last night. Scottie was 12/26.

Poeltl was 4/11. Mitchell was 1/7. Barrett was 7/19. Agbaji was 0/4. Shead was 3/9.

Now, Boucher was 4/9, Fernando was 4/7, Battle was 4/9 and Mogbo was 2/3. That was something. But the team as a whole shot 39%, and Scottie was bringing that up some even on a bleh night.

What I did enjoy about Scottie was that he was hammering it in the paint in the second half. He cooled off significantly after the second quarter, but he was like 4/10 in the paint in the second half. 10 shots in the key is a pretty big deal, even against a squad like Detroit. He was aggressive, he was finding his way to the right places, he just couldn't finish late. And he had no support, really, so we couldn't weather those misses.

Scottie should've had an easy trip dub if anyone on this team could shoot.

Easily. He was 3 assists away and Toronto missed 63 shots (14 from Scottie). He could very easily have made it if Agbaji, Mitchell and Barrett had all made 1 more 3 each, which isn't an unreasonable thought. They combined for 2/14 from 3. 28.6% from 3 as a team, and Scottie actually shot 3/8. NOT-Scottie shot 7/27 from 3, or 25.9%. Which is brutal.

A good game from Barnes, overall.

The most important piece would be a stretch big. This would make Barnes a lot more dangerous in the mid post. The good thing is that Barnes is being conditioned as a scorer since he's relying on weaker parts of his game. Bringing the ball up as the PG and then initiating offense with a live dribble isn't his strong suit but he's getting in reps.

Ideally I would want someone like IQ bringing up the ball and dumping it in the mid post to Barnes from where he can play a Carmelo Anthony type of game in the half court. Otherwise I want Barnes to push the ball in transition. A stretch big prospect that makes the right plays on the floor is what we need. I'm thinking that's going to be Rocco Zikarsy a few years into development.

More spacing would be great, but let's not use dirty words like "Carmelo Anthony."

Barnes has a pretty good tempo, and Melo had a bad habit of taking 600-year long isos like Bosh. Bad, contested fades from 17-20 feet. Holding the ball to let the defense set. Melo was good, but I'd rather Scottie look more at how Dirk played the game. Not that he'll be that adept a shooter, but it was a much better approach to the mid-post. And it wouldn't be awful to look at someone like Adrian Dantley for how he established great position, and how he attacked face-up from the mid-post. Hell, even someone like Jordan offers good examples of off-ball movement, post position, basic moves parlayed into decent looks (assuming a semi-reliable go-to like the fade). The 90s and early 2000s in general had a lot of good examples for semi-decent 6-6 to 6'8 guys who liked the mid-post. Glenn Robinson, Jamal Mashburn, Glen Rice, etc. Steal a move here or there, see if he can make it work. And again, much like the Dirk example, not using it as a standard of actual performance, but Scottie could do worse than watching tape of Old Magic., Like 1990, 1991, even 1996. That man was a wizard in the post even if you remove his passing.

I honestly think Scottie's future is as a 4. Sometimes advancing the ball when he grabs a DRB, often times giving it up if there isn't some early action, only to get it back in the mid-post. Parlaying his size, going after defenders who aren't so fast relative to him, that sort of thing. IF we're to return to Melo, more like New York Melo, he was a shorter 4 with a 3 at the time and it worked out quite well. And that actually opens the door to more spacing faster, assuming that Poeltl's off the floor when we run Barnes that way. And then when Poeltl is back on the floor, back to business as now so we don't clog the paint.

[tsherkin]

he's still a boris diaw, draymond green type mode of player, but a really good version

I think he has more potential as a scorer than that. Draymond Green is basically an oxygen-thief if you ask him to score. Barnes at least shows that he has some tools, some improvement, some potential to score effectively. A night like last night, he didn't hit his shots well, BUT he generated like 14 or 15 of his 26 shots in the paint (1 was technically just outside, but was right on the mid-block).

That's significant. He's not going to shoot 7/15 on those every time. He's a career 71% shooter inside 3 feet and 46.2% from 3-10. Now, 7/15 is 46.7% or so, but he was 3/8 in the RA last night. That isn't going to keep happening every night. So if he can keep bullying his way to the rim, he's gonna eventually start hitting those more consistently.

And that separates him from Diaw and Green. Not a bad reference as far as passing potential and size, of course, but he's got more juice than either as a scorer, even if he's struggling at the moment.

[TheGeneral99]

It would help Barnes if Quickley, Gradey and Brown were healthy.

I think people keep forgetting we are missing 3 really good shooters from the line-up.

[gbball]

Barnes', handle and footwork have improved, but they still need to get better. Other than that, his mentality and overall approach are what's holding him back.

There were a couple of takes where he took a weak finishing step and put a cutesy attempt that missed. He needs to go up way stronger and try to finish through contact...I see him shy away from the help defender too much, even when he's got a step on them. He's not recognizing and exploiting the micro advantages that he has.

There has been some improvement, but it's tough when you don't have a great first step or finishing step...it's confounding, because I see him get up really high sometimes.

Vince should mentor him on how to catch the help defender off guard and just finish through them. He's big enough and athletic enough.

[manjusaka]

I honestly think Scottie's future is as a 4. Sometimes advancing the ball when he grabs a DRB, often times giving it up if there isn't some early action, only to get it back in the mid-post. Parlaying his size, going after defenders who aren't so fast relative to him, that sort of thing. IF we're to return to Melo, more like New York Melo, he was a shorter 4 with a 3 at the time and it worked out quite well. And that actually opens the door to more spacing faster, assuming that Poeltl's off the floor when we run Barnes that way. And then when Poeltl is back on the floor, back to business as now so we don't clog the paint.

I too, thought he is best suited at 4. However, the way he is been playing on the offensive end and things he is working on, are sg/sf stuffs. I actually think he’s shooting form look a whole lot better than his rookie year. He turned his back towards the basket quite often, the turnaround jumper that he is working on can a go to move we are hoping for. I know it’s a difficult move to master, but it is a really good go to move.

[tsherkin]

I honestly think Scottie's future is as a 4. Sometimes advancing the ball when he grabs a DRB, often times giving it up if there isn't some early action, only to get it back in the mid-post. Parlaying his size, going after defenders who aren't so fast relative to him, that sort of thing. IF we're to return to Melo, more like New York Melo, he was a shorter 4 with a 3 at the time and it worked out quite well. And that actually opens the door to more spacing faster, assuming that Poeltl's off the floor when we run Barnes that way. And then when Poeltl is back on the floor, back to business as now so we don't clog the paint.

I too, thought he is best suited at 4. However, the way he is been playing on the offensive end and things he is working on, are sg/sf stuffs. I actually think he’s shooting form look a whole lot better than his rookie year. He turned his back towards the basket quite often, the turnaround jumper that he is working on can a go to move we are hoping for. I know it’s a difficult move to master, but it is a really good go to move.

Right, but having a handle and some tools isn't exclusive from the idea of being a 4. And I think athletically, he'll match up better there. And yes, I absolutely agree that if he can get a handle on the turnaround J, it'll be amazing for him. He has excellent power, so he should be abusing that for quality position. He just needs a reliable go-to move in that space, and it doesn't much look like a spin or slashing out of triple-threat is the focus. So he needs to really work on the pull-up and turnaround jumpers. Old Jordan kind of stuff.

[XTC]

Having a down year averaging 20.4/7
8/6.3/1.9, with a PER of 20.5, and a BPM of 5.8

Imagine when he gets going. He's been solid other than the very first game of the season. Since then he's been 22.3/8.2/6.5/2.2/0.7

[anotherhomer]

he's still a boris diaw, draymond green type mode of player, but a really good version

I think he has more potential as a scorer than that. Draymond Green is basically an oxygen-thief if you ask him to score. Barnes at least shows that he has some tools, some improvement, some potential to score effectively. A night like last night, he didn't hit his shots well, BUT he generated like 14 or 15 of his 26 shots in the paint (1 was technically just outside, but was right on the mid-block).

That's significant. He's not going to shoot 7/15 on those every time. He's a career 71% shooter inside 3 feet and 46.2% from 3-10. Now, 7/15 is 46.7% or so, but he was 3/8 in the RA last night. That isn't going to keep happening every night. So if he can keep bullying his way to the rim, he's gonna eventually start hitting those more consistently.

And that separates him from Diaw and Green. Not a bad reference as far as passing potential and size, of course, but he's got more juice than either as a scorer, even if he's struggling at the moment.

i mean i agree he has the chance to become more than Diaw and Green, but right now, he's still in the same mold just more talented obviously

the slight improvements in the mid-range jumper and drives, gives hope to that
i think in 2 years, you hope to see a more finalized version of scottie if he keeps working on it

[manjusaka]

I honestly think Scottie's future is as a 4. Sometimes advancing the ball when he grabs a DRB, often times giving it up if there isn't some early action, only to get it back in the mid-post. Parlaying his size, going after defenders who aren't so fast relative to him, that sort of thing. IF we're to return to Melo, more like New York Melo, he was a shorter 4 with a 3 at the time and it worked out quite well. And that actually opens the door to more spacing faster, assuming that Poeltl's off the floor when we run Barnes that way. And then when Poeltl is back on the floor, back to business as now so we don't clog the paint.

I too, thought he is best suited at 4. However, the way he is been playing on the offensive end and things he is working on, are sg/sf stuffs. I actually think he’s shooting form look a whole lot better than his rookie year. He turned his back towards the basket quite often, the turnaround jumper that he is working on can a go to move we are hoping for. I know it’s a difficult move to master, but it is a really good go to move.

Right, but having a handle and some tools isn't exclusive from the idea of being a 4. And I think athletically, he'll match up better there. And yes, I absolutely agree that if he can get a handle on the turnaround J, it'll be amazing for him. He has excellent power, so he should be abusing that for quality position. He just needs a reliable go-to move in that space, and it doesn't much look like a spin or slashing out of triple-threat is the focus. So he needs to really work on the pull-up and turnaround jumpers. Old Jordan kind of stuff.

His size and strength doesn’t really have advantage at4. At 3, it is an all different story.

[tsherkin]

[
i mean i agree he has the chance to become more than Diaw and Green, but right now, he's still in the same mold just more talented obviously

My point was that Draymond is a waste of skin as a scoring threat. Scottie, for all my many criticisms of him, has a chance to not be that. Diaw was okay, but he was a very limited guy on that front as well. They don't match style of play at all, other than being quality playmakers of a similar size. And Barnes has more power to his game than either.

His size and strength doesn’t really have advantage at4. At 3, it is an all different story.

He's actually still pretty burly at the 4, and then he trades a little of his strength advantage for a mobility advantage against most 4s. And it would be easier to space around him that way. Scottie's not a small guy; he's pretty stocky even for the 4. There are a fair number of 6'10, 6'11 dudes who are pretty skinny. Think of putting him against Pascal; he'd bully the hell out of him.

[OakleyDokely]

I never got the Draymond/Diaw comparisons. Those guys were very very limited offensively. Draymond's career high in PPG in a season is 14 (8 PPG for his career) and Diaw was very similar to Draymond. Scottie beat that comfortably in his rookie season as a 19/20 year old coming out of college with a very limited offensive skillset.

As a baseline, he's more of an A Gordon in ORL or Igoudala in PHI when they were allowed to initiate more offensively. A 2nd/3rd option type who had the versatility to contribute in many different areas offensively or defensively.

Taking that jump to legit #1 offensive option isn't something many players do. The guys who do are auto hall of famers and some of the best players ever.

[manjusaka]

[
i mean i agree he has the chance to become more than Diaw and Green, but right now, he's still in the same mold just more talented obviously

My point was that Draymond is a waste of skin as a scoring threat. Scottie, for all my many criticisms of him, has a chance to not be that. Diaw was okay, but he was a very limited guy on that front as well. They don't match style of play at all, other than being quality playmakers of a similar size. And Barnes has more power to his game than either.

His size and strength doesn’t really have advantage at4. At 3, it is an all different story.

He's actually still pretty burly at the 4, and then he trades a little of his strength advantage for a mobility advantage against most 4s. And it would be easier to space around him that way. Scottie's not a small guy; he's pretty stocky even for the 4. There are a fair number of 6'10, 6'11 dudes who are pretty skinny. Think of putting him against Pascal; he'd bully the hell out of him.

You are underestimating Pascal, he is listed 6-8 245lbs on the nba.com right now. SB is listed 6-7 237lbs.

Pascal wingspan 7' 3.25' standing reach 8' 11.5''
SB Wingspan 7'2.75'' standing reach 9.

[tsherkin]

You are underestimating Pascal, he is listed 6-8 245lbs on the nba.com right now. SB is listed 6-7 237lbs.

Pascal wingspan 7' 3.25' standing reach 8' 11.5''
SB Wingspan 7'2.75'' standing reach 9.

He's visibly not as stocky as Scottie. Those measurements are a) old and probably not that accurate) and b) assume that raw weight matters compared to build. Pascal's length would be some advantage, but Scottie would clearly get into him.

[PushDaRock]

[
i mean i agree he has the chance to become more than Diaw and Green, but right now, he's still in the same mold just more talented obviously

My point was that Draymond is a waste of skin as a scoring threat. Scottie, for all my many criticisms of him, has a chance to not be that. Diaw was okay, but he was a very limited guy on that front as well. They don't match style of play at all, other than being quality playmakers of a similar size. And Barnes has more power to his game than either.

His size and strength doesn’t really have advantage at4. At 3, it is an all different story.

He's actually still pretty burly at the 4, and then he trades a little of his strength advantage for a mobility advantage against most 4s. And it would be easier to space around him that way. Scottie's not a small guy; he's pretty stocky even for the 4. There are a fair number of 6'10, 6'11 dudes who are pretty skinny. Think of putting him against Pascal; he'd bully the hell out of him.

You are underestimating Pascal, he is listed 6-8 245lbs on the nba.com right now. SB is listed 6-7 237lbs.

Pascal wingspan 7' 3.25' standing reach 8' 11.5''
SB Wingspan 7'2.75'' standing reach 9.

I don't think those measurements are accurate, there's just no way Scottie weighs less than Pascal.

But, I think I mostly agree with your general point. Scottie finishes mostly with his physicality which works best when he has a more significant size advantage. When he has to score over a Mobley type or even Siakam, it's more difficult for him finishing over that length when he can't overpower them as easily.

[Scase]

RJ was too much dead weight to carry

Basically no one shot well last night. Scottie was 12/26.

Poeltl was 4/11. Mitchell was 1/7. Barrett was 7/19. Agbaji was 0/4. Shead was 3/9.

Now, Boucher was 4/9, Fernando was 4/7, Battle was 4/9 and Mogbo was 2/3. That was something. But the team as a whole shot 39%, and Scottie was bringing that up some even on a bleh night.

What I did enjoy about Scottie was that he was hammering it in the paint in the second half. He cooled off significantly after the second quarter, but he was like 4/10 in the paint in the second half. 10 shots in the key is a pretty big deal, even against a squad like Detroit. He was aggressive, he was finding his way to the right places, he just couldn't finish late. And he had no support, really, so we couldn't weather those misses.

I was half joking but, it's not just the shooting, he provided nothing else on the court. His defence was bad, he wasn't pulling in boards, not setting people up, turning the ball over, etc. As bad as others were last night, at least Jak still provides defence and rebounding, expectations should be higher for him than bench players, especially against the pistons.