Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[Scase]

Sometimes things need to get dire in order for a player to raise their game up.

A perfect example of this is Franz when Paolo went down.

That clearly isn't what's happening here. He's had half a decade and more to sort of figure it out in adverse conditions and he has not done. He is a weak FT shooter for a guard. He isn't consistent from 3, though he also doesn't do a lot of catch-and-shoot, and he has been pretty reasonable from the corners when he's taken those shots this season so far. He has no on-ball shooting skill outside of the RA and below the arc. Like, none. So he has huge leaps and bounds to go on that. He DOES cut well, and he does also bull his way into the paint quite well. He doesn't finish well when he gets there, but he gets there, and that's not a trivial thing.

At this point, though, it's clearly time to start arranging more optimal conditions and responsibilities for RJ instead of really hoping he figures it all out just cuz, you know?

Yeah, the only thing he's showing here is that when those "better" options go down, he doesn't get better, he's just the best available option. It puts all the deficiencies more on display.

Franz is in year 4, not year 6, and thus far he's showing that he's been able to increase his volume AND maintain the same efficiency. RJ has never shown even a glimpse of that, Franz was a hair below average in his rookie year, above average his sophomore year, and
floating right around league average last year and so far this year, despite mo shats.

I don't disagree that players in different situations can show they can step up, but 6 years in, pretty unlikely.

[anotherhomer]

All this talk of poor spacing around Scottie when he himself is a major contributor to the poor spacing. Newsflash, every single player of any archetype benefits from playing with floor spacers. If he needs 4 shooters to be successful around him I'd rather just go all the way and have 5 shooters out there instead.

Scottie does a lot of good, useful things on the basketball court but I'm over the excuses for his limitations. Just accept them and hope he improves the non-physical ones. He's not a franchise guy, not a guy to build your team around, not your 1st or 2nd best player on a contender, not a primary scoring OR offensive option (there's no difference btw).

I legitimately think you're writing him off early and I think your bias against him is showing.

Including the misses he had, I was actually impressed with the handle he displayed last night.

I think both his shooting and handle improved, just not to All Star levels yet.

i wouldn't say impressed but they definitely improved. in the past, he'll have his back to the basket more often to compensate for his lack of dribbling but he was facing the basket more often now

so there's hope he can be more than that draymond green, aaron gordon (ironically also a #4 overall pick) type

[tsherkin]

Franz is in year 4, not year 6,

I was talking a bout RJ.

I don't disagree that players in different situations can show they can step up, but 6 years in, pretty unlikely.

Yeah, it's unlikely. But what is more possible is that we tailor his scoring possessions to be more supported and to take advantage of his strengths once we get a reasonably healthy crew back and we might see him scoring at an effective level of efficiency on reduced volume. That would be useful, because he does have the ability to get to the rack in volume.

[Scase]

Franz is in year 4, not year 6,

I was talking a bout RJ.

I don't disagree that players in different situations can show they can step up, but 6 years in, pretty unlikely.

Yeah, it's unlikely. But what is more possible is that we tailor his scoring possessions to be more supported and to take advantage of his strengths once we get a reasonably healthy crew back and we might see him scoring at an effective level of efficiency on reduced volume. That would be useful, because he does have the ability to get to the rack in volume.

The Franz vs RJ was more directed at what Vampirate said, expecting RJ to take a leap like that is extremely unlikely with how many years of experience he has. And it's not like he was starved for opportunities, he averaged 16+ FGA in his last 3 seasons with the Knicks, I'm not sure how much more opportunities people are expecting him to need to show up.

I've been saying for quite some time now that when everyone was coming back, it was RJs FGA that needed to come down around the 15-ish mark and let GD/IQ continue to have around the same. Everyone jumped on me haha, I've always been of the mind that I'd rather a very efficient lower production player vs the inverse. Practically any NBA player can put up 20ppg+ if they get enough shots, that's not a special skill.

[NotMyKawhi]

Zero all stars this year. Especially w Scottie being out for a long stretch.

No chance

[Vampirate]

All this talk of poor spacing around Scottie when he himself is a major contributor to the poor spacing. Newsflash, every single player of any archetype benefits from playing with floor spacers. If he needs 4 shooters to be successful around him I'd rather just go all the way and have 5 shooters out there instead.

Scottie does a lot of good, useful things on the basketball court but I'm over the excuses for his limitations. Just accept them and hope he improves the non-physical ones. He's not a franchise guy, not a guy to build your team around, not your 1st or 2nd best player on a contender, not a primary scoring OR offensive option (there's no difference btw).

I legitimately think you're writing him off early and I think your bias against him is showing.

Including the misses he had, I was actually impressed with the handle he displayed last night.

I think both his shooting and handle improved, just not to All Star levels yet.

i wouldn't say impressed but they definitely improved. in the past, he'll have his back to the basket more often to compensate for his lack of dribbling but he was facing the basket more often now

so there's hope he can be more than that draymond green, aaron gordon (ironically also a #4 overall pick) type

Strictly scoring offense, he's surpassed both already.

Aaron Gordan's peak PPG as the main guy was 17.6 PPG at a .530 TS

Draymond's peak (playing with prime Steph and Klay) was a 14 PPG on 58.7 TS (neither he ever really reached again on the same volume)

Barnes rookie year he put up 15.6 points on a .552 TS. Barnes was a better scorer than either straight out of the gate, even as limited as he was.

Last year Barnes averaged 19.9 pts on .566 TS, the comparisons need to drop.

As for Barnes handle, he really couldn't use his left hand, he was very very right hand dominant.

Next time you watch Barnes, just pay attention on what he does with his left hand dribbling, this is the biggest improvement in his game by far. (credit to Darko here for emphasizing the left as I don't believe Nurse would)

[tsherkin]

The Franz vs RJ was more directed at what Vampirate said,

Ah, that makes more sense.

I've been saying for quite some time now that when everyone was coming back, it was RJs FGA that needed to come down around the 15-ish mark and let GD/IQ continue to have around the same. Everyone jumped on me haha, I've always been of the mind that I'd rather a very efficient lower production player vs the inverse. Practically any NBA player can put up 20ppg+ if they get enough shots, that's not a special skill.

I think some of us wanted a little more time, and a little more work with circumstances which more properly echoed what we saw last season, you know? He was doing well for us last season. Now, to be fair, he was also taking only about 15 FGA/g, but he had a ton of passing support in his shot diet, and nearly a third of his 3PA were from the corner. That was a good look for him for various reasons.

So I think ultimately pro-RJ folk are waiting to see if, with some spacing around him and maybe two ball handlers who can initiate in Scottie and Quick, RJ can attack inside that environment more effectively than we've seen when he's asked to be that primary actor.

[Scase]

The Franz vs RJ was more directed at what Vampirate said,

Ah, that makes more sense.

I've been saying for quite some time now that when everyone was coming back, it was RJs FGA that needed to come down around the 15-ish mark and let GD/IQ continue to have around the same. Everyone jumped on me haha, I've always been of the mind that I'd rather a very efficient lower production player vs the inverse. Practically any NBA player can put up 20ppg+ if they get enough shots, that's not a special skill.

I think some of us wanted a little more time, and a little more work with circumstances which more properly echoed what we saw last season, you know? He was doing well for us last season. Now, to be fair, he was also taking only about 15 FGA/g, but he had a ton of passing support in his shot diet, and nearly a third of his 3PA were from the corner. That was a good look for him for various reasons.

So I think ultimately pro-RJ folk are waiting to see if, with some spacing around him and maybe two ball handlers who can initiate in Scottie and Quick, RJ can attack inside that environment more effectively than we've seen when he's asked to be that primary actor.

I'm fine with giving it some more time, but there is a limit to that patience as well, eventually it becomes detrimental to the team. DD was a good example of it, if we're having to wait 7-10 years for a guy to finally start showing how valuable he can be, best to move on from him.

That said, this year is fine to evaluate how he fits, the injuries naturally make that harder, but I still stand by my previous statements. If a guy requires heavy passing support from his entire team, just to not be awful, then that isn't someone who is a long term piece.

[tsherkin]

I'm fine with giving it some more time, but there is a limit to that patience as well, eventually it becomes detrimental to the team. DD was a good example of it, if we're having to wait 7-10 years for a guy to finally start showing how valuable he can be, best to move on from him.

I agree that we don't generally want to wait as long as we did with DDR, although in his case, he turned into Kawhi and a title. So there's some grace there, haha!

That said, this year is fine to evaluate how he fits, the injuries naturally make that harder, but I still stand by my previous statements. If a guy requires heavy passing support from his entire team, just to not be awful, then that isn't someone who is a long term piece.

Well, the hope is that he looks more like he did last year. During that 32-game stretch, he was a 61.5% TS guy, which is +3.5% rTS. If he can manage 60% TS or better in that capacity at about 15 FGA/g, we start to look much more interesting offensively.

[Vampirate]

Sometimes things need to get dire in order for a player to raise their game up.

A perfect example of this is Franz when Paolo went down.

That clearly isn't what's happening here. He's had half a decade and more to sort of figure it out in adverse conditions and he has not done. He is a weak FT shooter for a guard. He isn't consistent from 3, though he also doesn't do a lot of catch-and-shoot, and he has been pretty reasonable from the corners when he's taken those shots this season so far. He has no on-ball shooting skill outside of the RA and below the arc. Like, none. So he has huge leaps and bounds to go on that. He DOES cut well, and he does also bull his way into the paint quite well. He doesn't finish well when he gets there, but he gets there, and that's not a trivial thing.

At this point, though, it's clearly time to start arranging more optimal conditions and responsibilities for RJ instead of really hoping he figures it all out just cuz, you know?

Watch on YouTube

This is the Scottie Barnes thread, not the RJ Barrett thread.

Wrong player

[tsherkin]

This is the Scottie Barnes thread, not the RJ Barrett thread.

Wrong player

Scase and I got off-track xD

In Scottie's case, we'll see. Things have BEEN dire, and his improvement as a scorer has been fitful and slow, but there's still some time. For all the same reasons I say the same of RJ, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with Scottie as we start to get healthy. If we start to get healthy. Spacing, other legit options around him, guys finishing his passes, that whole deal. Anything to ease the burden and open things up for him a little more. Quick and RJ maybe to help set up Scottie, instead of the reverse all the time, that'd be nice.

We'll see.

It's demonstrable that Scottie isn't really even a tier-2 scorer at the moment, but he's got some tools and he's got a very much non-ideal situation, so it'll be interesting to see what he can do with a more optimal environment. His approach to the game seems to be developing, which is encouraging.

[Vampirate]

This is the Scottie Barnes thread, not the RJ Barrett thread.

Wrong player

Scase and I got off-track xD

In Scottie's case, we'll see. Things have BEEN dire, and his improvement as a scorer has been fitful and slow, but there's still some time. For all the same reasons I say the same of RJ, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with Scottie as we start to get healthy. If we start to get healthy. Spacing, other legit options around him, guys finishing his passes, that whole deal. Anything to ease the burden and open things up for him a little more. Quick and RJ maybe to help set up Scottie, instead of the reverse all the time, that'd be nice.

We'll see.

It's demonstrable that Scottie isn't really even a tier-2 scorer at the moment, but he's got some tools and he's got a very much non-ideal situation, so it'll be interesting to see what he can do with a more optimal environment. His approach to the game seems to be developing, which is encouraging.

Against the Pistons we had basically nothing in the starting lineup which imo forced him to take a more active role in scoring than he usually would and had to create for himself much more.

That game against the Pistons reminds me of when Paolo went down and either Franz or Suggs needed to step up offensively or the Magic will sink.

Obviously it's only 1 game, but the Piston game is a good sign, hope we get more of that.

Essentially with Gradey out, Barnes was put in a sink or swim situation in the Piston game imo.

[tsherkin]

Against the Pistons we had basically nothing in the starting lineup which imo forced him to take a more active role in scoring than he usually would and had to create for himself much more.

Absolutely. It wasn't amazing and it was very flat in the second half, but he was certainly giving it a go. And his shot locations were great.

Essentially with Gradey out, Barnes was put in a sink or swim situation in the Piston game imo.

I mean, he's taken that many shots or even more previously. This isn't new. He took 29 FGA against the Hawks in the 22-23 season. That was another game where he struggled inside the arc (much more than versus Detroit, actually) but was lobbing up shots and trying. We'll see if he makes more of a habit out of trying to assert himself.

[anotherhomer]

I legitimately think you're writing him off early and I think your bias against him is showing.

Including the misses he had, I was actually impressed with the handle he displayed last night.

I think both his shooting and handle improved, just not to All Star levels yet.

i wouldn't say impressed but they definitely improved. in the past, he'll have his back to the basket more often to compensate for his lack of dribbling but he was facing the basket more often now

so there's hope he can be more than that draymond green, aaron gordon (ironically also a #4 overall pick) type

Strictly scoring offense, he's surpassed both already.

Aaron Gordan's peak PPG as the main guy was 17.6 PPG at a .530 TS

Draymond's peak (playing with prime Steph and Klay) was a 14 PPG on 58.7 TS (neither he ever really reached again on the same volume)

Barnes rookie year he put up 15.6 points on a .552 TS. Barnes was a better scorer than either straight out of the gate, even as limited as he was.

Last year Barnes averaged 19.9 pts on .566 TS, the comparisons need to drop.

As for Barnes handle, he really couldn't use his left hand, he was very very right hand dominant.

Next time you watch Barnes, just pay attention on what he does with his left hand dribbling, this is the biggest improvement in his game by far. (credit to Darko here for emphasizing the left as I don't believe Nurse would)

it was kinda funny. after writing this post, i checked Gordon's numbers

Ya, it's encouraging to see Barnes is driving facing the basket....i won't say Barnes is yet an all-NBA player yet but he's getting closer, and credit goes to Darko for that.

if he keeps it up, we may see Barnes being closer to that 23 PPG, 8 Rebound, 6 assist type player for 34% 3pt shooting and a passable mid-ranger next year

[tsherkin]

Ya, it's encouraging to see Barnes is driving facing the basket....i won't say Barnes is yet an all-NBA player yet but he's getting closer, and credit goes to Darko for that.

if he keeps it up, we may see Barnes being closer to that 23 PPG, 8 Rebound, 6 assist type player for 34% 3pt shooting and a passable mid-ranger next year

Scottie reminds me of a lot of old veterans when I watch him drive.

He's slow as balls, no burst. But he does use screens well, and he is also pretty craft about getting guys on his hip and using his size to get to at least the elbow, sometimes to the low block. What he needs to work on is finishing options and ability once he gets there, including counters moving him into the lane. A turnaround J, an elbow pull-up. Moving into a backdown and maybe getting a spin or pivot, etc. Maybe a floater. Something. He's got some reasonable finishing in the short range already, but he needs to finish in close better and, ideally, to get in tight much more. Against Detroit, he actually did a great job getting close, he just couldn't close it out in the RA, which was frustrating. Maybe gassed after the first half or something, because he's usually pretty reasonable there and he shot a LOT against the Pistons.

A league-average 3 would go a long way to helping as well, as long as he moderates his volume.

So much is contingent on real development of his shot, though. He has some compelling tools as a foundation, so we'll see what happens. This should be a useful development season if he can stay healthy. Last season was going to be a bunch of that too before the hand injury, so I hope he can manage it this year. The goggles aren't a bad look, either, haha.

[Scase]

This is the Scottie Barnes thread, not the RJ Barrett thread.

Wrong player

Scase and I got off-track xD

In Scottie's case, we'll see. Things have BEEN dire, and his improvement as a scorer has been fitful and slow, but there's still some time. For all the same reasons I say the same of RJ, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with Scottie as we start to get healthy. If we start to get healthy. Spacing, other legit options around him, guys finishing his passes, that whole deal. Anything to ease the burden and open things up for him a little more. Quick and RJ maybe to help set up Scottie, instead of the reverse all the time, that'd be nice.

We'll see.

It's demonstrable that Scottie isn't really even a tier-2 scorer at the moment, but he's got some tools and he's got a very much non-ideal situation, so it'll be interesting to see what he can do with a more optimal environment. His approach to the game seems to be developing, which is encouraging.

One thing I'm willing to give Scottie some more rope on, is just the amount of games he's behind RJ both from the age/experience perspective, and the injuries.

A broken hand that required surgery is pretty detrimental to shooting I imagine, and so is a busted orbital bone lol. But I'm mostly with you that his offensive game has progressed pretty slowly. But considering he had zero offensive game coming into the NBA, I'm not super surprised about it. He might be a bit of a late bloomer due to not really being put into a scoring role in college etc, could also be wishful thinking on my end.

Overall, I think that Scottie has shown a lot of dedication to getting better and it seems/sounds like he is a hard worker in practice. And while natural talent is a great thing to have, hard work can get you close. If he ends up being league average efficiency, I think we have a great player on our hands.

[Vampirate]

Ya, it's encouraging to see Barnes is driving facing the basket....i won't say Barnes is yet an all-NBA player yet but he's getting closer, and credit goes to Darko for that.

if he keeps it up, we may see Barnes being closer to that 23 PPG, 8 Rebound, 6 assist type player for 34% 3pt shooting and a passable mid-ranger next year

Scottie reminds me of a lot of old veterans when I watch him drive.

He's slow as balls, no burst. But he does use screens well, and he is also pretty craft about getting guys on his hip and using his size to get to at least the elbow, sometimes to the low block. What he needs to work on is finishing options and ability once he gets there, including counters moving him into the lane. A turnaround J, an elbow pull-up. Moving into a backdown and maybe getting a spin or pivot, etc. Maybe a floater. Something. He's got some reasonable finishing in the short range already, but he needs to finish in close better and, ideally, to get in tight much more. Against Detroit, he actually did a great job getting close, he just couldn't close it out in the RA, which was frustrating. Maybe gassed after the first half or something, because he's usually pretty reasonable there and he shot a LOT against the Pistons.

A league-average 3 would go a long way to helping as well, as long as he moderates his volume.

So much is contingent on real development of his shot, though. He has some compelling tools as a foundation, so we'll see what happens. This should be a useful development season if he can stay healthy. Last season was going to be a bunch of that too before the hand injury, so I hope he can manage it this year. The goggles aren't a bad look, either, haha.

And then there's Jalen Green who can get any shot from the perimeter he wants due to his athleticism but doesn't have the height, strength to get easy looks inside the three point line. Basically the anti Barnes.

[anotherhomer]

This is the Scottie Barnes thread, not the RJ Barrett thread.

Wrong player

Scase and I got off-track xD

In Scottie's case, we'll see. Things have BEEN dire, and his improvement as a scorer has been fitful and slow, but there's still some time. For all the same reasons I say the same of RJ, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with Scottie as we start to get healthy. If we start to get healthy. Spacing, other legit options around him, guys finishing his passes, that whole deal. Anything to ease the burden and open things up for him a little more. Quick and RJ maybe to help set up Scottie, instead of the reverse all the time, that'd be nice.

We'll see.

It's demonstrable that Scottie isn't really even a tier-2 scorer at the moment, but he's got some tools and he's got a very much non-ideal situation, so it'll be interesting to see what he can do with a more optimal environment. His approach to the game seems to be developing, which is encouraging.

One thing I'm willing to give Scottie some more rope on, is just the amount of games he's behind RJ both from the age/experience perspective, and the injuries.

A broken hand that required surgery is pretty detrimental to shooting I imagine, and so is a busted orbital bone lol. But I'm mostly with you that his offensive game has progressed pretty slowly. But considering he had zero offensive game coming into the NBA, I'm not super surprised about it. He might be a bit of a late bloomer due to not really being put into a scoring role in college etc, could also be wishful thinking on my end.

Overall, I think that Scottie has shown a lot of dedication to getting better and it seems/sounds like he is a hard worker in practice. And while natural talent is a great thing to have, hard work can get you close. If he ends up being league average efficiency, I think we have a great player on our hands.

he didn't have 0 offensive game, he did flash some signs of a mid-range game, though it was a lot rare in his rookie year

however, he's shown encouraging signs

[Scase]

Scase and I got off-track xD

In Scottie's case, we'll see. Things have BEEN dire, and his improvement as a scorer has been fitful and slow, but there's still some time. For all the same reasons I say the same of RJ, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with Scottie as we start to get healthy. If we start to get healthy. Spacing, other legit options around him, guys finishing his passes, that whole deal. Anything to ease the burden and open things up for him a little more. Quick and RJ maybe to help set up Scottie, instead of the reverse all the time, that'd be nice.

We'll see.

It's demonstrable that Scottie isn't really even a tier-2 scorer at the moment, but he's got some tools and he's got a very much non-ideal situation, so it'll be interesting to see what he can do with a more optimal environment. His approach to the game seems to be developing, which is encouraging.

One thing I'm willing to give Scottie some more rope on, is just the amount of games he's behind RJ both from the age/experience perspective, and the injuries.

A broken hand that required surgery is pretty detrimental to shooting I imagine, and so is a busted orbital bone lol. But I'm mostly with you that his offensive game has progressed pretty slowly. But considering he had zero offensive game coming into the NBA, I'm not super surprised about it. He might be a bit of a late bloomer due to not really being put into a scoring role in college etc, could also be wishful thinking on my end.

Overall, I think that Scottie has shown a lot of dedication to getting better and it seems/sounds like he is a hard worker in practice. And while natural talent is a great thing to have, hard work can get you close. If he ends up being league average efficiency, I think we have a great player on our hands.

he didn't have 0 offensive game, he did flash some signs of a mid-range game, though it was a lot rare in his rookie year

however, he's shown encouraging signs

He put up 10ppg on below average efficiency, that's not exactly what I would call an offensive game lol. All I'm saying is he definitely did not come from college with anyone confusing him with an offensive player.

[HumbleRen]

He’s rusty af, eye still hurt and he’s still putting up 20/8/6. I think he’ll be okay lol.

Now that we know that 20/8/6 is basically his floor, the goal for the season is to raise up the volume without taking a huge hit on his efficiency.

If he’s unable to hit 3’s at like 35% clip on decent volume then he’ll never be a 25 ppg guy. That’s the number to track this season.