2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 2)

[iggymcfrack]

Awfully quiet in here.

Heavens forbid he has one poor game in 2023-24 lmao

Find me one ATG that didn’t have a poor game every now and then. Hint: they don’t exist.

He didn't just have a terrible game, he had such a bad game that even his coach called him out.

Yeah bad games happen but this is where the defense comes in play. Even if you have terrible scoring night you can contribute big time with your defense.

Considering how tight the MVP criteria i think its absurd to keep promoting the narrative that Jokic is far ahead of everyone else.

The race has never been less tight. Not only is no one close to Jokic, but it's really hard to even tell who his closest competition is. Here are numbers for top players:

Jokic: +8.9 EPM, 14.3 BPM, +26.8 on/off
SGA: +6.5 EPM, 9.7 BPM, +14.0 on/off
Giannis: +5.7 EPM, 9.4 BPM, +1.0 on/off
Tatum: +5.7 EPM, 6.7 BPM, +12.3 on/off
Franz: +5.1 EPM, 7.0 BPM, +9.7 on/off
Steph: +4.8 EPM, 8.8 BPM, +9.4 on/off
Mitchell: +4.6 EPM, 2.6 BPM, -4.1 on/off
AD: +4.4 EPM, 6.8 BPM, -2.9 on/off

Jokic just laps the field. The difference between Jokic in 1st and 2nd place for EPM is the same as the gap between 2nd and 15th. The difference between Jokic in 1st and 2nd place in BPM is larger than the gap between 2nd and 16th. No player has ever been as far ahead of the league for a full season as Jokic is ahead of the rest of the NBA right now.

[ty 4191]

wins and mvp's are stupid. denver is elite when he's in the game and is one of the worst in the league when he's not.

Do you have the exact data on this on/off for Denver with/without Jokic plus league rankings? Thanks!

[ty 4191]

You know you're good when 22/7/7 is by far your worst game of the season.

https://captaincalculator.com/sports/basketball/game-score-calculator/

So true! A Game Score of 20.7 is actually quite good. It just happens to be (by far) his worst of the season.

Jokic vs. KAT (36 career games, including playoffs): 21.9/10.8/6.7 on .497 FG%, 28.7% 3P%, .575 TS%.

KAT vs. Jokic: 22.3/10.6/3.4 on .526 FG%, .381 3P%, .621 TS%.

Who has won this matchup?

[Jaqua92]

Heavens forbid he has one poor game in 2023-24 lmao

Find me one ATG that didn’t have a poor game every now and then. Hint: they don’t exist.

He didn't just have a terrible game, he had such a bad game that even his coach called him out.

Yeah bad games happen but this is where the defense comes in play. Even if you have terrible scoring night you can contribute big time with your defense.

Considering how tight the MVP criteria i think its absurd to keep promoting the narrative that Jokic is far ahead of everyone else.

The race has never been less tight. Not only is no one close to Jokic, but it's really hard to even tell who his closest competition is. Here are numbers for top players:

Jokic: +8.9 EPM, 14.3 BPM, +26.8 on/off
SGA: +6.5 EPM, 9.7 BPM, +14.0 on/off
Giannis: +5.7 EPM, 9.4 BPM, +1.0 on/off
Tatum: +5.7 EPM, 6.7 BPM, +12.3 on/off
Franz: +5.1 EPM, 7.0 BPM, +9.7 on/off
Steph: +4.8 EPM, 8.8 BPM, +9.4 on/off
Mitchell: +4.6 EPM, 2.6 BPM, -4.1 on/off
AD: +4.4 EPM, 6.8 BPM, -2.9 on/off

Jokic just laps the field. The difference between Jokic in 1st and 2nd place for EPM is the same as the gap between 2nd and 15th. The difference between Jokic in 1st and 2nd place in BPM is larger than the gap between 2nd and 16th. No player has ever been as far ahead of the league for a full season as Jokic is ahead of the rest of the NBA right now.

Jokic has his first bad game in a year and suddenly he's "overrated"

Lol

[CobraCommander]

Surprised that anyone other than Jokic got a vote but it’s impressive that people are acknowledging Wagner!

And Wagner may be the second best player on his team..Orlando could be a future problem for the whole league

[CobraCommander]

He didn't just have a terrible game, he had such a bad game that even his coach called him out.

Yeah bad games happen but this is where the defense comes in play. Even if you have terrible scoring night you can contribute big time with your defense.

Considering how tight the MVP criteria i think its absurd to keep promoting the narrative that Jokic is far ahead of everyone else.

The race has never been less tight. Not only is no one close to Jokic, but it's really hard to even tell who his closest competition is. Here are numbers for top players:

Jokic: +8.9 EPM, 14.3 BPM, +26.8 on/off
SGA: +6.5 EPM, 9.7 BPM, +14.0 on/off
Giannis: +5.7 EPM, 9.4 BPM, +1.0 on/off
Tatum: +5.7 EPM, 6.7 BPM, +12.3 on/off
Franz: +5.1 EPM, 7.0 BPM, +9.7 on/off
Steph: +4.8 EPM, 8.8 BPM, +9.4 on/off
Mitchell: +4.6 EPM, 2.6 BPM, -4.1 on/off
AD: +4.4 EPM, 6.8 BPM, -2.9 on/off

Jokic just laps the field. The difference between Jokic in 1st and 2nd place for EPM is the same as the gap between 2nd and 15th. The difference between Jokic in 1st and 2nd place in BPM is larger than the gap between 2nd and 16th. No player has ever been as far ahead of the league for a full season as Jokic is ahead of the rest of the NBA right now.

Jokic has his first bad game in a year and suddenly he's "overrated"

Lol

Jokic is over rated if you have him ahead of MJ, KAJ, Wilt, LBJ… but if you have him behind those 4 all time- you can make an reasonable argument for him being in the top 10 all time (fight me)

[Triple M]

Tatum should never win an MVP with how many guys are better than him

Booo. Have some faith!

Have faith that at least 5 players will stop performing better than Tatum?

There aren't 5 players playing better than him to start the season. His 2nd spot in the mvp ladder is justfied but guys like Giannis and SGA have made a charge and Tatum has slipped the last few weeks but no way is there 5 players playing better now.

[GiannisAnte34]

Booo. Have some faith!

Have faith that at least 5 players will stop performing better than Tatum?

There aren't 5 players playing better than him to start the season. His 2nd spot in the mvp ladder is justfied but guys like Giannis and SGA have made a charge and Tatum has slipped the last few weeks but no way is there 5 players playing better now.

I meant over the course of a full season; I have never had Tatum among the top 5 best players in the league and I really don't see a reasonable path to him joining that territory given how stacked his team is. Part of the MVP award voting is narrative, being on the most winning team is one criterion in his favor but having a bunch of All-Star level performing teammates is a strike against him that raises the bar

[SA37]

At just under a quarter of the way through the season, this is Jokic's award to lose. Denver is 9-7 while playing about half their games without Aaron Gordon on an already pedestrian roster.

SGA and Giannis are the only competitors here, and a lot will be determined by record.

Tatum, Doncic, Curry, and AD will shake out behind Jokic, SGA, Giannis depending on record.

[yannisk]

Heavens forbid he has one poor game in 2023-24 lmao

Find me one ATG that didn’t have a poor game every now and then. Hint: they don’t exist.

He didn't just have a terrible game, he had such a bad game that even his coach called him out.

Yeah bad games happen but this is where the defense comes in play. Even if you have terrible scoring night you can contribute big time with your defense.

Considering how tight the MVP criteria i think its absurd to keep promoting the narrative that Jokic is far ahead of everyone else.

The race has never been less tight. Not only is no one close to Jokic, but it's really hard to even tell who his closest competition is. Here are numbers for top players:

Jokic: +8.9 EPM, 14.3 BPM, +26.8 on/off
SGA: +6.5 EPM, 9.7 BPM, +14.0 on/off
Giannis: +5.7 EPM, 9.4 BPM, +1.0 on/off
Tatum: +5.7 EPM, 6.7 BPM, +12.3 on/off
Franz: +5.1 EPM, 7.0 BPM, +9.7 on/off
Steph: +4.8 EPM, 8.8 BPM, +9.4 on/off
Mitchell: +4.6 EPM, 2.6 BPM, -4.1 on/off
AD: +4.4 EPM, 6.8 BPM, -2.9 on/off

Jokic just laps the field. The difference between Jokic in 1st and 2nd place for EPM is the same as the gap between 2nd and 15th. The difference between Jokic in 1st and 2nd place in BPM is larger than the gap between 2nd and 16th. No player has ever been as far ahead of the league for a full season as Jokic is ahead of the rest of the NBA right now.

So Jokic is far ahead in epm and bpm. This agrees with what we have seen so far and the more basic stats. But I notice that SGA for example leads in WS while Jokic obliterates him in BPM. If I compare Mitchel and Steph, there are almost tied in EPM while in BPM there is a huge difference. Ty Jerome is 6th in BPM and Jarrett Allen 3rd in WS.

I doubt many people know or understand how these advanced stats are calculated. Out of all these BPM, LEBRON, DARKO, VORP etc etc are some more trustworthy than others? If one player leads in VORP and another in WS do we have a clue who was more impactful?

So i think we shouldn't treat these advanced stats as the final answer but rather as another factor along with basic stats, TS, record against expectations, eye test etc

[ForeverTFC]

At just under a quarter of the way through the season, this is Jokic's award to lose. Denver is 9-7 while playing about half their games without Aaron Gordon on an already pedestrian roster.

SGA and Giannis are the only competitors here, and a lot will be determined by record.

Tatum, Doncic, Curry, and AD will shake out behind Jokic, SGA, Giannis depending on record.

Doncic always come on strong in the second half of the season. Jokic, Giannis, Luka, SGA are the upper tier superstars of the league and will battle it out for MVP. I don't see how anyone else joins this list.

Tatum will get some votes in the Bontemps polls but will never be a serious threat; hard to win MVP when the system is the star of the show, Curry is playing great, but it's a step below his best year and the year the other guys are having. Doncic is the only one that can - and I bet will - emerge as a serious contender.

[Doranku]

Where is the love for big KAT? 26/13/3 on 55/47/84 splits (66% TS), 4th in PER, 5th in WS, 6th in WS/48. Obviously he's not the frontrunner but he deserves more mention in this thread. Dude is ripping it up offensively, gave Joker the absolute business a few nights ago too.

[Special_Puppy]

Where is the love for big KAT? 26/13/3 on 55/47/84 splits (66% TS), 4th in PER, 5th in WS, 6th in WS/48. Obviously he's not the frontrunner but he deserves more mention in this thread. Dude is ripping it up offensively, gave Joker the absolute business a few nights ago too.

Betting Markets have him 200-1 to win MVP

[AleksandarN]

Awfully quiet in here.

Heavens forbid he has one poor game in 2023-24 lmao

Find me one ATG that didn’t have a poor game every now and then. Hint: they don’t exist.

He didn't just have a terrible game, he had such a bad game that even his coach called him out.

Yeah bad games happen but this is where the defense comes in play. Even if you have terrible scoring night you can contribute big time with your defense.

Considering how tight the MVP criteria i think its absurd to keep promoting the narrative that Jokic is far ahead of everyone else.

Pull up the extract quote from Malone. You don’t need to be this dishonest. Malone didn’t call him out because he played bad. It was about wanting jokic to be more vocal with the team. Lol you’re that desperate on pushing Giannis you blatantly lie. Giannis is playing excellent 2nd best player in the league.

[AleksandarN]

Where is the love for big KAT? 26/13/3 on 55/47/84 splits (66% TS), 4th in PER, 5th in WS, 6th in WS/48. Obviously he's not the frontrunner but he deserves more mention in this thread. Dude is ripping it up offensively, gave Joker the absolute business a few nights ago too.

He’s been playing great.

[Wolfgang630]

Luka should never enter top 5 conversation this year. This team is so good without him. Idc how good he plays the rest of the year.

[Mavrelous]

Luka should never enter top 5 conversation this year. This team is so good without him. Idc how good he plays the rest of the year.

He should play better first, but Mavs sucked w/o Luka all previous years this is the 1st year he has a competent team w/o him.
Last year they were 4-8 e/o him and go back to the MVP threads and see how he was blamed for the record.

[Ssj16]

Heavens forbid he has one poor game in 2023-24 lmao

Find me one ATG that didn’t have a poor game every now and then. Hint: they don’t exist.

He didn't just have a terrible game, he had such a bad game that even his coach called him out.

Yeah bad games happen but this is where the defense comes in play. Even if you have terrible scoring night you can contribute big time with your defense.

Considering how tight the MVP criteria i think its absurd to keep promoting the narrative that Jokic is far ahead of everyone else.

Pull up the extract quote from Malone. You don’t need to be this dishonest. Malone didn’t call him out because he played bad. It was about wanting jokic to be more vocal with the team. Lol you’re that desperate on pushing Giannis you blatantly lie. Giannis is playing excellent 2nd best player in the league.

When 22 7 7 is your bad game, you know you're on route to be mvp.

[brackdan70]

Heavens forbid he has one poor game in 2023-24 lmao

Find me one ATG that didn’t have a poor game every now and then. Hint: they don’t exist.

He didn't just have a terrible game, he had such a bad game that even his coach called him out.

Yeah bad games happen but this is where the defense comes in play. Even if you have terrible scoring night you can contribute big time with your defense.

Considering how tight the MVP criteria i think its absurd to keep promoting the narrative that Jokic is far ahead of everyone else.

The race has never been less tight. Not only is no one close to Jokic, but it's really hard to even tell who his closest competition is. Here are numbers for top players:

Jokic: +8.9 EPM, 14.3 BPM, +26.8 on/off
SGA: +6.5 EPM, 9.7 BPM, +14.0 on/off
Giannis: +5.7 EPM, 9.4 BPM, +1.0 on/off
Tatum: +5.7 EPM, 6.7 BPM, +12.3 on/off
Franz: +5.1 EPM, 7.0 BPM, +9.7 on/off
Steph: +4.8 EPM, 8.8 BPM, +9.4 on/off
Mitchell: +4.6 EPM, 2.6 BPM, -4.1 on/off
AD: +4.4 EPM, 6.8 BPM, -2.9 on/off

Jokic just laps the field. The difference between Jokic in 1st and 2nd place for EPM is the same as the gap between 2nd and 15th. The difference between Jokic in 1st and 2nd place in BPM is larger than the gap between 2nd and 16th. No player has ever been as far ahead of the league for a full season as Jokic is ahead of the rest of the NBA right now.

You are looking at the predictive EPM. Look at the season EPM and particularly EW, estimated wins. Paints a much clearer picture of this season and is much closer.

[brackdan70]

Jokic also lead in LEBRON, but much closer.
Jokic 5.75
SGA 5.62
Tatum 5.46