PG: Knicks vs. Mavericks (They Left Their Offense in Denver)

[FrozenEnvelope]

Offense wasn't the real issue. Defense and rebounding were.

[robillionaire]

We played 8 guys, they're also down starters and rotation players and played 10. It's inexcusable the minutes load Tom gives these guys, take him out for 5 minutes and see if someone on the bench can give you something or if just resting a bit longer can help him find his second wind.

This happened in the second Pacers game, where our guys were dead tired because he played a 7 man rotation vs the Pacers who played 10 guys, they were looking for anything off the bench and found some energetic minutes from their 19 year old rookie who didn't score but sped up the game by sprinting down the court and just tiring our guys out. We're running playoff style rotations in November and have been since the start of the season.

You aren’t wrong about this but again, our depth sucks. The guys who people want to put in there more minutes should all be in the g league. Sims himself should be in the g league. It’s a roster construction issue. Maybe getting Precious back could lighten the load for a couple guys but we have depth problems

We're losing these games regardless, play the guys to at the very least take the pressure off the guys playing 40 minutes. It's diminishing returns right now and our 4th quarter stats are ugly because these dudes are out of gas. The way he's riding these players, one of them is going to get hurt which will cause him to play the others even more.

In this game I’d have pulled the starters much earlier. But hindsight is 20-20. obviously if you know you’re going to lose in advance sure just play rookies the whole game but this is a team that doesn’t stop competing until it’s mathematically impossible to come back, it’s just never been that mentality. So I don’t expect that to change. Then again maybe these guys are getting a lot of reps behind the scenes and will come in and play more as the season progresses. We saw that with grimes as a rookie who didn’t play at first. So who knows if he actually likes any of them

[Guano]

Well maybe there’s a silver lining and he’s playing himself out of a large salary

him wanting to delay his extension was a blessing

On the other hand they clearly aren’t going to let a guy who they gave away the future and is friends with your PG for walk for nothing. We can joke about it but that’s clearly not happening. So we are in a terrible position if he doesn’t remember how to play basketball soon

Yeah, they're kinda fcked if he doesn't get right. They need him to be a consistent 3rd option with a highly 3% and solid defense if they want to be serious contenders.

They gave away all their capital for him so the contract is irrelevant at this point.

I just can't get over the fact they gave up an unprotected 2031 pick for him. Just knowing their is some freak 6'6" 12 year old running with wolves while dragging chains in eastern Europe that is going to ruin my golden years is upsetting.

[robillionaire]

I was never a grimes believer but that grimes and two seconds for burks and bojan trade turned out to be one of Leon’s top blunders. We really could use him or any other competent bench player right about now

[Guano]

Offense wasn't the real issue. Defense and rebounding were.

Scoring 15 points in a quarter is definitely a real issue

[HEZI]

lose confidence...he's not a 8 year old.

you are answering your own questions but just will never say a bad word about thibs even if its warranted. Its likely after a long road trip with 2 difficult altitude places like Utah and Denver...they looked fatigued.

So play your **** bench!!!!

He’s not an 8 year but yes players go through stretches of bad quarters, halves, games and fall out of rhythm and have to get back in it. But again like I said I don’t know why Thibs played him those minutes and it’s not the reason he was off or played bad. Whatever methods Thibs has they are proven to work because whatever he’s doing now is going to improve them down the road. I also think in order to play the bench you kind of need a bench.

if Matt Ryan can't give you 10 mins off the bench why is he here?

Dadiet has proven he's not a liability defensively...he can't give you a few mins?

What is Mcbride doing only playing 15 mins?

Its excuse making to say he doesn't have a bench...make it work...stagger them so the guys you don't have a ton of confidence are in with your top players. Its not rocket science.

Also OG and some of our guys just nearly played 80 mins in DEN and UTAH. How do you know that didn't impact them at the start of this game. Fatigue and tired legs can get you even before a game sometimes. You don't have to be in minute 36 to show fatigue...

They did. Did you not see McBride getting cooked out there by Dinwiddie? Yeah not playing the bench more minutes was really the issue tonight. We totally didn’t get shut down defensively and cooked up offensively and that includes the guys on our bench who did play. But yeah sure Deuce was too tired too then I guess. As was Sims as was Payne. They did nothing out there either. Have you seen Matt Ryan play defense? He’s not good. Pacome showed some nice defensive moments and I’m sure his time will come eventually but he’s still learning so I’m not crying over him not playing right now. Dinwiddie cooked our bench and starters. Deuce couldn’t even shut him down and Deuce was forcing him into some tough shots too but he was still making them. Nobody on the bench was saving the game or saving the starters.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

He’s not an 8 year but yes players go through stretches of bad quarters, halves, games and fall out of rhythm and have to get back in it. But again like I said I don’t know why Thibs played him those minutes and it’s not the reason he was off or played bad. Whatever methods Thibs has they are proven to work because whatever he’s doing now is going to improve them down the road. I also think in order to play the bench you kind of need a bench.

We played 8 guys, they're also down starters and rotation players and played 10. It's inexcusable the minutes load Tom gives these guys, take him out for 5 minutes and see if someone on the bench can give you something or if just resting a bit longer can help him find his second wind.

This happened in the second Pacers game, where our guys were dead tired because he played a 7 man rotation vs the Pacers who played 10 guys, they were looking for anything off the bench and found some energetic minutes from their 19 year old rookie who didn't score but sped up the game by sprinting down the court and just tiring our guys out. We're running playoff style rotations in November and have been since the start of the season.

I think we have bigger issues going on that just fatigue. I think they haven’t figured out how to get the offense flowing against the better defensive matchups. We have a pretty easy schedule in December so we really aren’t going to get a test like this for too many more games before January. Beating up on the Nets and Wizards is cool but figuring out how to beat good teams is still something this team needs to learn how to do.

Also the Pacers play a very fast and uptempo style and Carlisle likes to keep his guys fresh so they can fly up the floor. We play at the slowest pace in the league. We don’t burn out as quickly as the teams playing uptempo

That's the coach's fault, if we can't get offense against good defenses that speaks clearly on the coach. Watching how the Jazz were using Lauri, we could do that with Towns, instead all our sets for him are pretty rudimentary by comparison. We know Jalen & KAT can score against elite defenses, yet they struggle in part because the coach has no imagination on offense, and our offense routinely falls off a cliff in 4th quarters because guys are gassed.


The point with the Pacers though is he was playing a bunch of "Whodafuks" like Furphy, Freeman and Jackson, guys who would never see the light of day playing under Tom. He was down a starter and a rotational player and still managed to play 10 guys, the Mavs were down 2 starters and their backup C and still played 10 guys. It's insanity to lock into an 8 man rotation in November no matter what the injury situation is.

[3toheadmelo]

I was never a grimes believer but that grimes and two seconds for burks and bojan trade turned out to be one of Leon’s top blunders. We really could use him or any other competent bench player right about now

Grimes been hooping lately like his old self

[spree8]

This is what we should be running at the very least right now. 9 man rotation. And throw Kolek in for 10 mpg out of Deuce’s 30 until he’s 100%.

Jalen (34) | Cam (14)
Mikal (18) | Deuce (30)
Hart (16) | Mikal (16) | Dadiet (16)
OG (32) | Hart (16)
Towns (32) | Huk (16)

[robillionaire]

Offense wasn't the real issue. Defense and rebounding were.

Scoring 15 points in a quarter is definitely a real issue

Towns didn’t score on lively in the first. I think he had one dunk on Kleber and that was about it on offense. He wasn’t even attempting 3s until the 3rd when he hit a couple in a row. Not sure why not get him out there on the perimeter and get him launching 3s spread the floor pull their center away from the rim so other players could drive but they kept settling for bad shots. Same thing happened against Utah with Kessler and by the time they look like they’d figured something out the game was over. I dunno I’m going to bed.

[The KnicksFix]

DEUCE, JB, OG, KAT, MITCH… PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE MAN

[robillionaire]

Scottie Pippen Jr. had 19 pts on 9-12 for the grizzlies he may have read the board and got offended by the OG comparison and decided to set the record straight

[NoDopeOnSundays]

You aren’t wrong about this but again, our depth sucks. The guys who people want to put in there more minutes should all be in the g league. Sims himself should be in the g league. It’s a roster construction issue. Maybe getting Precious back could lighten the load for a couple guys but we have depth problems

We're losing these games regardless, play the guys to at the very least take the pressure off the guys playing 40 minutes. It's diminishing returns right now and our 4th quarter stats are ugly because these dudes are out of gas. The way he's riding these players, one of them is going to get hurt which will cause him to play the others even more.

In this game I’d have pulled the starters much earlier. But hindsight is 20-20. obviously if you know you’re going to lose in advance sure just play rookies the whole game but this is a team that doesn’t stop competing until it’s mathematically impossible to come back, it’s just never been that mentality. So I don’t expect that to change. Then again maybe these guys are getting a lot of reps behind the scenes and will come in and play more as the season progresses. We saw that with grimes as a rookie who didn’t play at first. So who knows if he actually likes any of them

Grimes only started playing because of injuries.

This is why you need to play more guys -


ORTG / DRTG by quarter

1st
118.9 / 112.8

2nd
125.3 / 116.9


3rd
130.0 / 111.8



4th
114.2 / 125.2



This team completely and utterly craters in the 4th more often than not, the disparity is mad, they are the second worst defensive team in the 4th quarter because half the time the guys play through the second half. He has to play the other guys, even if they're not good, because the starters probably could make up the difference if they weren't gassed.

[HEZI]

We played 8 guys, they're also down starters and rotation players and played 10. It's inexcusable the minutes load Tom gives these guys, take him out for 5 minutes and see if someone on the bench can give you something or if just resting a bit longer can help him find his second wind.

This happened in the second Pacers game, where our guys were dead tired because he played a 7 man rotation vs the Pacers who played 10 guys, they were looking for anything off the bench and found some energetic minutes from their 19 year old rookie who didn't score but sped up the game by sprinting down the court and just tiring our guys out. We're running playoff style rotations in November and have been since the start of the season.

I think we have bigger issues going on that just fatigue. I think they haven’t figured out how to get the offense flowing against the better defensive matchups. We have a pretty easy schedule in December so we really aren’t going to get a test like this for too many more games before January. Beating up on the Nets and Wizards is cool but figuring out how to beat good teams is still something this team needs to learn how to do.

Also the Pacers play a very fast and uptempo style and Carlisle likes to keep his guys fresh so they can fly up the floor. We play at the slowest pace in the league. We don’t burn out as quickly as the teams playing uptempo

That's the coach's fault, if we can't get offense against good defenses that speaks clearly on the coach. Watching how the Jazz were using Lauri, we could do that with Towns, instead all our sets for him are pretty rudimentary by comparison. We know Jalen & KAT can score against elite defenses, yet they struggle in part because the coach has no imagination on offense, and our offense routinely falls off a cliff in 4th quarters because guys are gassed.


The point with the Pacers though is he was playing a bunch of "Whodafuks" like Furphy, Freeman and Jackson, guys who would never see the light of day playing under Tom. He was down a starter and a rotational player and still managed to play 10 guys, the Mavs were down 2 starters and their backup C and still played 10 guys. It's insanity to lock into an 8 man rotation in November no matter what the injury situation is.

How is Brunson hitting front rim on his floaters the coaches fault? Or Mikal not being able to make a simple entry pass without it getting picked off the coaches fault? Driving and kicking out a bounce pass that gets picked off is on the coach? OG was shooting bricks even open ones.

What I see is they lack a secondary ball handler who can create offense. Hart is more of a transition scoring threat but not much in the half court unless he’s hitting a spot up jumper. Bridges and OG both don’t have the ball handling to create a shot unless it’s limited dribbles to get to their shot. Nobody besides Brunson can really initiate anything from the pick and roll so when teams are keeping Brunson in check and the other guys are not hot from outside, there’s isn’t really too much you can do. I think Brunson really has to turn it up against teams like this for us to have a chance.

[mpharris36]

He’s not an 8 year but yes players go through stretches of bad quarters, halves, games and fall out of rhythm and have to get back in it. But again like I said I don’t know why Thibs played him those minutes and it’s not the reason he was off or played bad. Whatever methods Thibs has they are proven to work because whatever he’s doing now is going to improve them down the road. I also think in order to play the bench you kind of need a bench.

if Matt Ryan can't give you 10 mins off the bench why is he here?

Dadiet has proven he's not a liability defensively...he can't give you a few mins?

What is Mcbride doing only playing 15 mins?

Its excuse making to say he doesn't have a bench...make it work...stagger them so the guys you don't have a ton of confidence are in with your top players. Its not rocket science.

Also OG and some of our guys just nearly played 80 mins in DEN and UTAH. How do you know that didn't impact them at the start of this game. Fatigue and tired legs can get you even before a game sometimes. You don't have to be in minute 36 to show fatigue...

They did. Did you not see McBride getting cooked out there by Dinwiddie? Yeah not playing the bench more minutes was really the issue tonight. We totally didn’t get shut down defensively and cooked up offensively and that includes the guys on our bench who did play. But yeah sure Deuce was too tired too then I guess. As was Sims as was Payne. They did nothing out there either. Have you seen Matt Ryan play defense? He’s not good. Pacome showed some nice defensive moments and I’m sure his time will come eventually but he’s still learning so I’m not crying over him not playing right now. Dinwiddie cooked our bench and starters. Deuce couldn’t even shut him down and Deuce was forcing him into some tough shots too but he was still making them. Nobody on the bench was saving the game or saving the starters.

it has nothing to do sometimes with winning the game. Sometimes you need to cut your losses and get guys in just to save guys to fight another day.

And who knows if a guy that typically doesn't play has a good stretch maybe he has some confidence to run with him for the next game.

I have no idea what your argument is...everyone got cooked including the bench so your solution is not play the bench.

This isn't the playoffs...he's running a playoff rotation in November...no one is arguing when the games becomes even bigger you can thin out the rotation to the main guys. RIght now that is unacceptable especially in a game where the starters got punched in the mouth early and didn't play with the right effort and energy.

Its a long season...you better start trusting or getting contributions from the bench or guys like OG won't make it through the year healthy.

[mpharris36]

some no name tyrese martin from the nets just dropped 30 pts in a game vs the suns...sometimes all these guys just need an opportunity. There is no reason we can see a few more bench minutes especially in a game where the starters don't have it.

[FrozenEnvelope]

Offense wasn't the real issue. Defense and rebounding were.

Scoring 15 points in a quarter is definitely a real issue

Gave up 129 and outrebounded by 10. We are not going to win 99% of games if we play like that.

[Capn'O]

Scottie Pippen Jr. had 19 pts on 9-12 for the grizzlies he may have read the board and got offended by the OG comparison and decided to set the record straight

Junior is legit.

[8516knicks]

We're losing these games regardless, play the guys to at the very least take the pressure off the guys playing 40 minutes. It's diminishing returns right now and our 4th quarter stats are ugly because these dudes are out of gas. The way he's riding these players, one of them is going to get hurt which will cause him to play the others even more.

In this game I’d have pulled the starters much earlier. But hindsight is 20-20. obviously if you know you’re going to lose in advance sure just play rookies the whole game but this is a team that doesn’t stop competing until it’s mathematically impossible to come back, it’s just never been that mentality. So I don’t expect that to change. Then again maybe these guys are getting a lot of reps behind the scenes and will come in and play more as the season progresses. We saw that with grimes as a rookie who didn’t play at first. So who knows if he actually likes any of them

Grimes only started playing because of injuries.

This is why you need to play more guys -


ORTG / DRTG by quarter

1st
118.9 / 112.8

2nd
125.3 / 116.9


3rd
130.0 / 111.8



4th
114.2 / 125.2



This team completely and utterly craters in the 4th more often than not, the disparity is mad, they are the second worst defensive team in the 4th quarter because half the time the guys play through the second half. He has to play the other guys, even if they're not good, because the starters probably could make up the difference if they weren't gassed.

Telling stat.

[RHODEY]

I was never a grimes believer but that grimes and two seconds for burks and bojan trade turned out to be one of Leon’s top blunders. We really could use him or any other competent bench player right about now

We didn't need Grimes tonight...we needed Mitch...and/or Precious. We have zero margin for error on the defensive side right now.

With"wingstop" you would think that wouldn't be the case...but it is.