2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 2)

[Wolfgang630]

Jokic also lead in LEBRON, but much closer.
Jokic 5.75
SGA 5.62
Tatum 5.46

It’s like the same group of guys appearing in all of these categories.

[SA37]

At just under a quarter of the way through the season, this is Jokic's award to lose. Denver is 9-7 while playing about half their games without Aaron Gordon on an already pedestrian roster.

SGA and Giannis are the only competitors here, and a lot will be determined by record.

Tatum, Doncic, Curry, and AD will shake out behind Jokic, SGA, Giannis depending on record.

Doncic always come on strong in the second half of the season. Jokic, Giannis, Luka, SGA are the upper tier superstars of the league and will battle it out for MVP. I don't see how anyone else joins this list.

Tatum will get some votes in the Bontemps polls but will never be a serious threat; hard to win MVP when the system is the star of the show, Curry is playing great, but it's a step below his best year and the year the other guys are having. Doncic is the only one that can - and I bet will - emerge as a serious contender.

Tatum is having a monster season: 28-8-6 on 45-37-80. If the Celtics win 10-15 more games than Jokic, Giannis, Luka, or SGA and Tatum continues to put up these kinds of numbers all year, he absolutely has to be a top contender.

[slick_watts]

At just under a quarter of the way through the season, this is Jokic's award to lose. Denver is 9-7 while playing about half their games without Aaron Gordon on an already pedestrian roster.

SGA and Giannis are the only competitors here, and a lot will be determined by record.

Tatum, Doncic, Curry, and AD will shake out behind Jokic, SGA, Giannis depending on record.

Doncic always come on strong in the second half of the season. Jokic, Giannis, Luka, SGA are the upper tier superstars of the league and will battle it out for MVP. I don't see how anyone else joins this list.

Tatum will get some votes in the Bontemps polls but will never be a serious threat; hard to win MVP when the system is the star of the show, Curry is playing great, but it's a step below his best year and the year the other guys are having. Doncic is the only one that can - and I bet will - emerge as a serious contender.

Tatum is having a monster season: 28-8-6 on 45-37-80. If the Celtics win 10-15 more games than Jokic, Giannis, Luka, or SGA and Tatum continues to put up these kinds of numbers all year, he absolutely has to be a top contender.

there is nothing tatum (or, anyone else for that matter) can do that will earn him a deserving mvp over nikola jokic assuming he plays 65 games or more this year. using team win totals to justify one is insane and stupid. jokic is just so much better than anyone else in the field. embiid is the only guy who could come close.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Doncic always come on strong in the second half of the season. Jokic, Giannis, Luka, SGA are the upper tier superstars of the league and will battle it out for MVP. I don't see how anyone else joins this list.

Tatum will get some votes in the Bontemps polls but will never be a serious threat; hard to win MVP when the system is the star of the show, Curry is playing great, but it's a step below his best year and the year the other guys are having. Doncic is the only one that can - and I bet will - emerge as a serious contender.

Tatum is having a monster season: 28-8-6 on 45-37-80. If the Celtics win 10-15 more games than Jokic, Giannis, Luka, or SGA and Tatum continues to put up these kinds of numbers all year, he absolutely has to be a top contender.

there is nothing tatum (or, anyone else for that matter) can do that will earn him a deserving mvp over nikola jokic assuming he plays 65 games or more this year. using team win totals to justify one is insane and stupid. jokic is just so much better than anyone else in the field. embiid is the only guy who could come close.

Eh. Jokic is the best player but people really love to sell the gap. SGA again ranks #2 in EPM and most metrics, not Embiid. Embiid is 3rd. This narrative that it’s Jokic vs Embiid and nobody else just isn’t accurate anymore. SGA is every bit in the conversation and will be for many years.

[slick_watts]

Tatum is having a monster season: 28-8-6 on 45-37-80. If the Celtics win 10-15 more games than Jokic, Giannis, Luka, or SGA and Tatum continues to put up these kinds of numbers all year, he absolutely has to be a top contender.

there is nothing tatum (or, anyone else for that matter) can do that will earn him a deserving mvp over nikola jokic assuming he plays 65 games or more this year. using team win totals to justify one is insane and stupid. jokic is just so much better than anyone else in the field. embiid is the only guy who could come close.

Eh. Jokic is the best player but people really love to sell the gap. SGA again ranks #2 in EPM and most metrics, not Embiid. Embiid is 3rd. This narrative that it’s Jokic vs Embiid and nobody else just isn’t accurate anymore. SGA is every bit in the conversation and will be for many years.

embiid isn't himself. if he was, he could give jokic a run for his money, as he did a couple of years ago. jokic is just so far ahead of everyone else. i love shai, but he's not in the same ballpark. it's not even close.

[Packbuckman]

there is nothing tatum (or, anyone else for that matter) can do that will earn him a deserving mvp over nikola jokic assuming he plays 65 games or more this year. using team win totals to justify one is insane and stupid. jokic is just so much better than anyone else in the field. embiid is the only guy who could come close.

Eh. Jokic is the best player but people really love to sell the gap. SGA again ranks #2 in EPM and most metrics, not Embiid. Embiid is 3rd. This narrative that it’s Jokic vs Embiid and nobody else just isn’t accurate anymore. SGA is every bit in the conversation and will be for many years.

embiid isn't himself. if he was, he could give jokic a run for his money, as he did a couple of years ago. jokic is just so far ahead of everyone else. i love shai, but he's not in the same ballpark. it's not even close.

Giannis will be right there with Jokic in the end and who’s a better player than embiid. Let’s see how they look when they play each other Giannis at least can guard Jokic a bit jokic can’t guard Giannis at all.

[OkcSinceSGA]

there is nothing tatum (or, anyone else for that matter) can do that will earn him a deserving mvp over nikola jokic assuming he plays 65 games or more this year. using team win totals to justify one is insane and stupid. jokic is just so much better than anyone else in the field. embiid is the only guy who could come close.

Eh. Jokic is the best player but people really love to sell the gap. SGA again ranks #2 in EPM and most metrics, not Embiid. Embiid is 3rd. This narrative that it’s Jokic vs Embiid and nobody else just isn’t accurate anymore. SGA is every bit in the conversation and will be for many years.

embiid isn't himself. if he was, he could give jokic a run for his money, as he did a couple of years ago. jokic is just so far ahead of everyone else. i love shai, but he's not in the same ballpark. it's not even close.

The argument I’m making isn’t that Jokic isn’t the best. He is. I’m more saying people love talking about Embiid, Luka, Tatum, Giannis and acting like SGA is an outlier at the top, but just like last year he’s #2 in catch all metrics after Jokic.

[Magic Giannison]

Heavens forbid he has one poor game in 2023-24 lmao

Find me one ATG that didn’t have a poor game every now and then. Hint: they don’t exist.

He didn't just have a terrible game, he had such a bad game that even his coach called him out.

Yeah bad games happen but this is where the defense comes in play. Even if you have terrible scoring night you can contribute big time with your defense.

Considering how tight the MVP criteria i think its absurd to keep promoting the narrative that Jokic is far ahead of everyone else.

Pull up the extract quote from Malone. You don’t need to be this dishonest. Malone didn’t call him out because he played bad. It was about wanting jokic to be more vocal with the team. Lol you’re that desperate on pushing Giannis you blatantly lie. Giannis is playing excellent 2nd best player in the league.

Im not being dishonest, he literally calls out Murray and Jokic and even points out the first half vs Dallas where they didn't play defense.

More vocal with the team is asking to play better with more effort like Malone literally said few seconds after but i guess you're selectively remembering what he said.

heres the video

Watch on YouTube

[slick_watts]

Eh. Jokic is the best player but people really love to sell the gap. SGA again ranks #2 in EPM and most metrics, not Embiid. Embiid is 3rd. This narrative that it’s Jokic vs Embiid and nobody else just isn’t accurate anymore. SGA is every bit in the conversation and will be for many years.

embiid isn't himself. if he was, he could give jokic a run for his money, as he did a couple of years ago. jokic is just so far ahead of everyone else. i love shai, but he's not in the same ballpark. it's not even close.

Giannis will be right there with Jokic in the end and who’s a better player than embiid. Let’s see how they look when they play each other Giannis at least can guard Jokic a bit jokic can’t guard Giannis at all.

i couldn't care less how they play each other.

[SA37]

Doncic always come on strong in the second half of the season. Jokic, Giannis, Luka, SGA are the upper tier superstars of the league and will battle it out for MVP. I don't see how anyone else joins this list.

Tatum will get some votes in the Bontemps polls but will never be a serious threat; hard to win MVP when the system is the star of the show, Curry is playing great, but it's a step below his best year and the year the other guys are having. Doncic is the only one that can - and I bet will - emerge as a serious contender.

Tatum is having a monster season: 28-8-6 on 45-37-80. If the Celtics win 10-15 more games than Jokic, Giannis, Luka, or SGA and Tatum continues to put up these kinds of numbers all year, he absolutely has to be a top contender.

there is nothing tatum (or, anyone else for that matter) can do that will earn him a deserving mvp over nikola jokic assuming he plays 65 games or more this year. using team win totals to justify one is insane and stupid. jokic is just so much better than anyone else in the field. embiid is the only guy who could come close.

You don't have to agree with it, but many of those who vote view the MVP as more than just who is the best player in the league.

If the Celtics were to win, say 67 games, and none of the teams with main contenders for MVP surpassed, say ~55 wins, there is no way you could just simply ignore the gap given how good Tatum has been. 28-8-6 is elite by any measure, and Tatum has finished 6th, 4th, and 6th in MVP voting the last 3 years with similar output.

Where I think your argument against team wins would be more valid would be with a team like Cleveland, which doesn't have a singular candidate like many other good teams do. That said, it is worth remembering Detroit's team from the ~mid-00s which saw Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billups get significant consideration for MVP (both in the top-10 multiple times) despite laughable statistical output by MVP standards and neither being anywhere close to being in the discussion for being a top-10 player in the league.

[ForeverTFC]

Tatum is having a monster season: 28-8-6 on 45-37-80. If the Celtics win 10-15 more games than Jokic, Giannis, Luka, or SGA and Tatum continues to put up these kinds of numbers all year, he absolutely has to be a top contender.

there is nothing tatum (or, anyone else for that matter) can do that will earn him a deserving mvp over nikola jokic assuming he plays 65 games or more this year. using team win totals to justify one is insane and stupid. jokic is just so much better than anyone else in the field. embiid is the only guy who could come close.

You don't have to agree with it, but many of those who vote view the MVP as more than just who is the best player in the league.

If the Celtics were to win, say 67 games, and none of the teams with main contenders for MVP surpassed, say ~55 wins, there is no way you could just simply ignore the gap given how good Tatum has been. 28-8-6 is elite by any measure, and Tatum has finished 6th, 4th, and 6th in MVP voting the last 3 years with similar output.

Where I think your argument against team wins would be more valid would be with a team like Cleveland, which doesn't have a singular candidate like many other good teams do. That said, it is worth remembering Detroit's team from the ~mid-00s which saw Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billups get significant consideration for MVP (both in the top-10 multiple times) despite laughable statistical output by MVP standards and neither being anywhere close to being in the discussion for being a top-10 player in the league.

The issue like i said is narrative. The MVPs in Boston are the system and the FO. They can win as much as they want, no one is attributing it to Tatum. And it wouldn't necessarily be incorrect, 51 3s a game, ~7 more than the number 2 team in 3PA tells us everything we need to know.

[slick_watts]

If the Celtics were to win, say 67 games, and none of the teams with main contenders for MVP surpassed, say ~55 wins, there is no way you could just simply ignore the gap given how good Tatum has been. 28-8-6 is elite by any measure, and Tatum has finished 6th, 4th, and 6th in MVP voting the last 3 years with similar output.

i think it's quite easy to ignore that gap, considering the nuggets with nikola jokic in the game perform about the same as the celtics do when jayson tatum is in the game, and jokic is obvioulsy far more productive than tatum.

i'd like to hear why you think the celtics' performance without tatum and the nuggets' performance without jokic has (or should have) any bearing at all on which player should win mvp. are they emitting gamma rays from the bench that influence game outcomes when they aren't on the court? i'm open to any explanation you have.

[Jaqua92]

Tatum is having a monster season: 28-8-6 on 45-37-80. If the Celtics win 10-15 more games than Jokic, Giannis, Luka, or SGA and Tatum continues to put up these kinds of numbers all year, he absolutely has to be a top contender.

there is nothing tatum (or, anyone else for that matter) can do that will earn him a deserving mvp over nikola jokic assuming he plays 65 games or more this year. using team win totals to justify one is insane and stupid. jokic is just so much better than anyone else in the field. embiid is the only guy who could come close.

Eh. Jokic is the best player but people really love to sell the gap. SGA again ranks #2 in EPM and most metrics, not Embiid. Embiid is 3rd. This narrative that it’s Jokic vs Embiid and nobody else just isn’t accurate anymore. SGA is every bit in the conversation and will be for many years.

Come on lol

[therealbig3]

Meh, I know Jokic fills up the stat sheet, but it's a hard sell to me that he's clearly a lot better than a healthy Giannis. Especially since Giannis is an elite defensive big, and Jokic is decidedly not. I think people are underselling Jokic's weaknesses on that end to make it seem like it's not a big deal, but it kind of is, especially when his competition is an elite defensive big who is also a great offensive piece.

Jokic is an all-time great offensive big with mediocre defense, Giannis is an elite 2-way big but not historically good offensively. It's a classic debate, and without a clear winner. Especially since I don't think Jokic is in GOAT territory as far as offense is concerned.

[Wolfgang630]

He didn't just have a terrible game, he had such a bad game that even his coach called him out.

Yeah bad games happen but this is where the defense comes in play. Even if you have terrible scoring night you can contribute big time with your defense.

Considering how tight the MVP criteria i think its absurd to keep promoting the narrative that Jokic is far ahead of everyone else.

Pull up the extract quote from Malone. You don’t need to be this dishonest. Malone didn’t call him out because he played bad. It was about wanting jokic to be more vocal with the team. Lol you’re that desperate on pushing Giannis you blatantly lie. Giannis is playing excellent 2nd best player in the league.

Im not being dishonest, he literally calls out Murray and Jokic and even points out the first half vs Dallas where they didn't play defense.

More vocal with the team is asking to play better with more effort like Malone literally said few seconds after but i guess you're selectively remembering what he said.

heres the video

Watch on YouTube

It’s good to see him say that. It shouldn’t matter who the hell you are your coach should not be afraid to call the best player out. Unlike other coaches who are to scared to call out the best players on their team.

[ky_23]

Meh, I know Jokic fills up the stat sheet, but it's a hard sell to me that he's clearly a lot better than a healthy Giannis. Especially since Giannis is an elite defensive big, and Jokic is decidedly not. I think people are underselling Jokic's weaknesses on that end to make it seem like it's not a big deal, but it kind of is, especially when his competition is an elite defensive big who is also a great offensive piece.

Jokic is an all-time great offensive big with mediocre defense, Giannis is an elite 2-way big but not historically good offensively. It's a classic debate, and without a clear winner. Especially since I don't think Jokic is in GOAT territory as far as offense is concerned.

even though giannis is still a superior defender to jokic, he is not the same beast he was 3 years ago. although it is debatable, a top one sided offensive player is more influential for team's overall performance than a top two way player imo. a player's individual presence on offensive is harder to compensate when a particular ability lacks and far more impactful than on defense because of the natural need of collaborative effort of team defense. i remember when giannis was a back to back mvp and dpoy and how much the bucks offense struggled against miami because of giannis' lack of offensive skills back then.
btw i cant see how jokic is not in goat offense territory where he makea a team with no other all star a contender every year by himself as a one side player

[Broadcaster]

Meh, I know Jokic fills up the stat sheet, but it's a hard sell to me that he's clearly a lot better than a healthy Giannis. Especially since Giannis is an elite defensive big, and Jokic is decidedly not. I think people are underselling Jokic's weaknesses on that end to make it seem like it's not a big deal, but it kind of is, especially when his competition is an elite defensive big who is also a great offensive piece.

Jokic is an all-time great offensive big with mediocre defense, Giannis is an elite 2-way big but not historically good offensively. It's a classic debate, and without a clear winner. Especially since I don't think Jokic is in GOAT territory as far as offense is concerned.

You don't think Jokic is in GOAT territory as far as offence goes? Why? You actually sell Jokic as somewhat of an empty stat person which is wild.

[falcolombardi]

Meh, I know Jokic fills up the stat sheet, but it's a hard sell to me that he's clearly a lot better than a healthy Giannis. Especially since Giannis is an elite defensive big, and Jokic is decidedly not. I think people are underselling Jokic's weaknesses on that end to make it seem like it's not a big deal, but it kind of is, especially when his competition is an elite defensive big who is also a great offensive piece.

Jokic is an all-time great offensive big with mediocre defense, Giannis is an elite 2-way big but not historically good offensively. It's a classic debate, and without a clear winner. Especially since I don't think Jokic is in GOAT territory as far as offense is concerned.

even though giannis is still a superior defender to jokic, he is not the same beast he was 3 years ago. although it is debatable, a top one sided offensive player is more influential for team's overall performance than a top two way player imo. a player's individual presence on offensive is harder to compensate when a particular ability lacks and far more impactful than on defense because of the natural need of collaborative effort of team defense. i remember when giannis was a back to back mvp and dpoy and how much the bucks offense struggled against miami because of giannis' lack of offensive skills back then.
btw i cant see how jokic is not in goat offense territory where he makea a team with no other all star a contender every year by himself as a one side player

"Contender every year" is doing some heavy lifting here man lol

[AleksandarN]

He didn't just have a terrible game, he had such a bad game that even his coach called him out.

Yeah bad games happen but this is where the defense comes in play. Even if you have terrible scoring night you can contribute big time with your defense.

Considering how tight the MVP criteria i think its absurd to keep promoting the narrative that Jokic is far ahead of everyone else.

Pull up the extract quote from Malone. You don’t need to be this dishonest. Malone didn’t call him out because he played bad. It was about wanting jokic to be more vocal with the team. Lol you’re that desperate on pushing Giannis you blatantly lie. Giannis is playing excellent 2nd best player in the league.

Im not being dishonest, he literally calls out Murray and Jokic and even points out the first half vs Dallas where they didn't play defense.

More vocal with the team is asking to play better with more effort like Malone literally said few seconds after but i guess you're selectively remembering what he said.

heres the video

Watch on YouTube

I know the video. I seen it yesterday. He called out Jokic for him to be more vocal. Also what he said and what said after are two different things. He pointed out that Murray and jokic were not vocal enough with the team. I love Malone calling out his players. He knows his players are not babies or spoiled brats who will take offense to criticism. They respond like they did in game 3 of the Heat finals. Effort was lacking as a team I agree. I love Malone very underrated coach.

[AleksandarN]

Pull up the extract quote from Malone. You don’t need to be this dishonest. Malone didn’t call him out because he played bad. It was about wanting jokic to be more vocal with the team. Lol you’re that desperate on pushing Giannis you blatantly lie. Giannis is playing excellent 2nd best player in the league.

Im not being dishonest, he literally calls out Murray and Jokic and even points out the first half vs Dallas where they didn't play defense.

More vocal with the team is asking to play better with more effort like Malone literally said few seconds after but i guess you're selectively remembering what he said.

heres the video

Watch on YouTube

It’s good to see him say that. It shouldn’t matter who the hell you are your coach should not be afraid to call the best player out. Unlike other coaches who are to scared to call out the best players on their team.

Some coaches are scared to call out their best players because those player can’t take criticism. It is why I like a player like Jokic. He isn’t above to being coached