Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[Boogie!]

No delusion here from me. I don’t think he will ever be a great scorer from a self creation standpoint.

He has taken 31 3’s in the last 4 games and hit 6.

I just don’t like the development I’m seeing from him. He never projected to be an elite scorer, and it feels like we’re ignoring his strengths and trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

Hopefully once IQ is back that changes and he can get back to just doing what he’s good at.

The whole point of a prospect is to develop their game. We aren't trying to win. Draymond Greens grow on trees. Masai hopes that Scottie can become more than that. I'd be pretty disappointed in this FO and coaching staff if they gave up on Scottie's development this early in his career.

The part of development that we want Scottie to work on inside the arc is hindered by the square peg that is Jak being jammed into the round hole that is Barnes' space on the floor.

Until that's fixed, it's a great time to work on his perimeter game. We know he showed good signs of being a competent C&S 3 guy beyond the arc. Keep the pull-ups coming for a while.

Except Barrett who’s primary method of scoring is attacking the paint hasn’t had problems scoring in the paint with yak inside.

In the Detroit game yak cleared out a wide open lane for Barnes and he smoked the lefty layup. There’s things about Barnes game that are limited when it comes to post play. Unless you’re trying to develop him into a back to the basket bruiser.

The topic of yaks spacing offensively might be a talking point when we’re talking about overall team dynamics and efficiency but it’s not what’s holding Barnes as an individual back offensively. That being said, regardless Barnes absolutely needs to be able to shoot to be an efficient offensive player. He’s never gonna be a great scorer if he can’t shoot. So I actually want him to keep jacking up 3s. Again if you actually pay attention to what made him look like a budding star last year, it was just the fact that he was shooting like 40% from 3 to start the season.

[Vampirate]

Oh, Jalen Green...

Jalen Green heard you talkin ****

He has talent. A good game here or there happens.

With the right mindset he probably could get to Zach Lavine levels as a player, and Lavine is probably underrated at this point, it's mostly that contract.

[tsherkin]

Jalen Green heard you talkin ****

He has talent. A good game here or there happens.

With the right mindset he probably could get to Zach Lavine levels as a player, and Lavine is probably underrated at this point, it's mostly that contract.

And his shot selection.

[Vampirate]

He has talent. A good game here or there happens.

With the right mindset he probably could get to Zach Lavine levels as a player, and Lavine is probably underrated at this point, it's mostly that contract.

And his shot selection.

I mean, that's a mentality thing, hence 'mindset' .

Green's weakness in terms of ceiling is physicality but imo, he should be able to get to the rim at will and draw lots of fouls. (ideally)

[tsherkin]

With the right mindset he probably could get to Zach Lavine levels as a player, and Lavine is probably underrated at this point, it's mostly that contract.

And his shot selection.

I mean, that's a mentality thing, hence 'mindset' .

Green's weakness in terms of ceiling is physicality but imo, he should be able to get to the rim at will and draw lots of fouls. (ideally)

Oh yeah, I just wanted to double up on his atrocious shot selection, lol.

[Scase]

This is the year for Scottie to forget efficiency and just keep shooting.

Which isn't bad, but man, he really has to chill on the ATB 3's. He's not doing himself or anyone else any favours, he should be just taking as many shots as he can inside the arc, he needs to be pushing for everything near the basket.

Forget about it, I got a feeling this is the style that SB himself wants to play. Our organization seems agreed and trying to develop him that way. Offensively he is going to be a PG/SG/point forward from now on. His style would probably closer to Doncic not LBJ or Giannis.

This is the year for Scottie to forget efficiency and just keep shooting.

Which isn't bad, but man, he really has to chill on the ATB 3's. He's not doing himself or anyone else any favours, he should be just taking as many shots as he can inside the arc, he needs to be pushing for everything near the basket.

Nah, rebuilding is for working on your game, especially weaknesses to see what's actually there.

There was a question years ago about how do you tank properly by keeping both Siakam and OG while only trading Fred. The answer is getting Siakam to keep working on pull-up 3s-long 2s and send OG into traffic as much as possible.

Accelerate development when the games don't matter. We should have IQ play a lot more off-ball. Get RJ to try more difficult passes. Get them out of their comfort zones.

There is a difference between developing your game, and just jacking up low value shots. You don't need in game reps to jack up uncontested ATB 3's you can do that in practice. What you need in game reps for is incorporating your teammates/changing your decision-making during in game situations where you dont know what the opposing defence is doing.

I love Scottie, and I think he can be a respectable 3pt shooter, but not as a pull up shooter, this just doesn't benefit his development at all. This serves the tank currently so I'm not entirely against it, but it will also build a bad habit if he gets the green light to just launch stuff for no reason.

He has plenty of other offensive abilities that should be prioritized for improvement, most importantly his mid range game, the current suite of shots is not going to improve anything.

[Vampirate]

Which isn't bad, but man, he really has to chill on the ATB 3's. He's not doing himself or anyone else any favours, he should be just taking as many shots as he can inside the arc, he needs to be pushing for everything near the basket.

Forget about it, I got a feeling this is the style that SB himself wants to play. Our organization seems agreed and trying to develop him that way. Offensively he is going to be a PG/SG/point forward from now on. His style would probably closer to Doncic not LBJ or Giannis.

Which isn't bad, but man, he really has to chill on the ATB 3's. He's not doing himself or anyone else any favours, he should be just taking as many shots as he can inside the arc, he needs to be pushing for everything near the basket.

Nah, rebuilding is for working on your game, especially weaknesses to see what's actually there.

There was a question years ago about how do you tank properly by keeping both Siakam and OG while only trading Fred. The answer is getting Siakam to keep working on pull-up 3s-long 2s and send OG into traffic as much as possible.

Accelerate development when the games don't matter. We should have IQ play a lot more off-ball. Get RJ to try more difficult passes. Get them out of their comfort zones.

There is a difference between developing your game, and just jacking up low value shots. You don't need in game reps to jack up uncontested ATB 3's you can do that in practice. What you need in game reps for is incorporating your teammates/changing your decision-making during in game situations where you dont know what the opposing defence is doing.

I love Scottie, and I think he can be a respectable 3pt shooter, but not as a pull up shooter, this just doesn't benefit his development at all. This serves the tank currently so I'm not entirely against it, but it will also build a bad habit if he gets the green light to just launch stuff for no reason.

He has plenty of other offensive abilities that should be prioritized for improvement, most importantly his mid range game, the current suite of shots is not going to improve anything.

Man are his percentages going to look ugly now.

I do think he should be taking some threes and see if he has it on the night, there's going to be nights when he just has it.

And then there's last night.

I'll also be honest, what people we're complaining about Barnes, they are also complaining about Wemby too.

I do think he does need to create his own shot at the perimeter regardless. wip.

[ATLTimekeeper]

People complain about Wemby because he's taller than everyone and he's taking stepbacks. Barnes needs those 3s. He can't live inside. A lot of his offense looks bad, but his overall strength is his versatility. He'll never be Tatum. He'll never be Draymond. He can kind of mimic both on offense and that is potentially really hard to gameplan for. I think early on he just isn't moving well without the ball. Looks like he's stuck on trying to establish his on ball scoring game.

On defense we're seeing early results of him being a transformational defensive player that he hasn't been yet in his career. If he can sustain this he's a perennial DPOY candidate and we're good to go.

[TheGeneral99]

Raptors are 3-5 with Scottie this year and 1 of those games was against Denver where we had that game until he broke his orbital bone. If he stayed that game I think we win and are 4-4.

We are 2-9 without Scottie.

So yes, he's an impact player no doubt.

[Scase]

Forget about it, I got a feeling this is the style that SB himself wants to play. Our organization seems agreed and trying to develop him that way. Offensively he is going to be a PG/SG/point forward from now on. His style would probably closer to Doncic not LBJ or Giannis.

Nah, rebuilding is for working on your game, especially weaknesses to see what's actually there.

There was a question years ago about how do you tank properly by keeping both Siakam and OG while only trading Fred. The answer is getting Siakam to keep working on pull-up 3s-long 2s and send OG into traffic as much as possible.

Accelerate development when the games don't matter. We should have IQ play a lot more off-ball. Get RJ to try more difficult passes. Get them out of their comfort zones.

There is a difference between developing your game, and just jacking up low value shots. You don't need in game reps to jack up uncontested ATB 3's you can do that in practice. What you need in game reps for is incorporating your teammates/changing your decision-making during in game situations where you dont know what the opposing defence is doing.

I love Scottie, and I think he can be a respectable 3pt shooter, but not as a pull up shooter, this just doesn't benefit his development at all. This serves the tank currently so I'm not entirely against it, but it will also build a bad habit if he gets the green light to just launch stuff for no reason.

He has plenty of other offensive abilities that should be prioritized for improvement, most importantly his mid range game, the current suite of shots is not going to improve anything.

Man are his percentages going to look ugly now.

I do think he should be taking some threes and see if he has it on the night, there's going to be nights when he just has it.

And then there's last night.

I'll also be honest, what people we're complaining about Barnes, they are also complaining about Wemby too.

I do think he does need to create his own shot at the perimeter regardless. wip.

Eh, wemby in his rookie year was putting up 5.5 3PA/g on 32.5%, and this year he's damn near doubled it at 9.3/g and his average has gone up around 1.5%, Scottie is taking more and making less (compared to last season).

I'm fine with him taking some, but he tends to just jack up a bunch right at the beginning of the game and miss most/all of them, then gets away from it later in the game. Spread that **** out, his highest average was 34% last year and that was mainly held up by a very hot start to the season, otherwise he's like a 28-29% 3p shooter. Hell, I don't even have a problem with the volume, I have a problem with the type of shots, generally it's good 3pt shooters who can manage pull ups at a reasonable rate, he's gotta take the baby steps and make sure he can hit the C&S ones at a reasonable clip. Walk before you run you know?

I think I'd even be more open to the idea of him going for step back 3's with a defender on him, that's something you can only sort of emulate in practice, but just bringing the ball up the court and jacking up an ATB 3 without a defender anywhere close enough to contest? You don't need an in game environment for those is what I mean, lets see him get reps for stuff that requires a live game with unpredictable defences.

[Vampirate]

People complain about Wemby because he's taller than everyone and he's taking stepbacks. Barnes needs those 3s. He can't live inside. A lot of his offense looks bad, but his overall strength is his versatility. He'll never be Tatum. He'll never be Draymond. He can kind of mimic both on offense and that is potentially really hard to gameplan for. I think early on he just isn't moving well without the ball. Looks like he's stuck on trying to establish his on ball scoring game.

On defense we're seeing early results of him being a transformational defensive player that he hasn't been yet in his career. If he can sustain this he's a perennial DPOY candidate and we're good to go.

He's easily above Draymond as an offensive player.

[LoveMyRaps]

He's been ass this season.

Let's not hype up mid.

I do believe the eye injury is affecting his shooting right now, so I'll let some of it slide. But the shot selection has been abysmal.

[Vampirate]

There is a difference between developing your game, and just jacking up low value shots. You don't need in game reps to jack up uncontested ATB 3's you can do that in practice. What you need in game reps for is incorporating your teammates/changing your decision-making during in game situations where you dont know what the opposing defence is doing.

I love Scottie, and I think he can be a respectable 3pt shooter, but not as a pull up shooter, this just doesn't benefit his development at all. This serves the tank currently so I'm not entirely against it, but it will also build a bad habit if he gets the green light to just launch stuff for no reason.

He has plenty of other offensive abilities that should be prioritized for improvement, most importantly his mid range game, the current suite of shots is not going to improve anything.

Man are his percentages going to look ugly now.

I do think he should be taking some threes and see if he has it on the night, there's going to be nights when he just has it.

And then there's last night.

I'll also be honest, what people we're complaining about Barnes, they are also complaining about Wemby too.

I do think he does need to create his own shot at the perimeter regardless. wip.

Eh, wemby in his rookie year was putting up 5.5 3PA/g on 32.5%, and this year he's damn near doubled it at 9.3/g and his average has gone up around 1.5%, Scottie is taking more and making less (compared to last season).

I'm fine with him taking some, but he tends to just jack up a bunch right at the beginning of the game and miss most/all of them, then gets away from it later in the game. Spread that **** out, his highest average was 34% last year and that was mainly held up by a very hot start to the season, otherwise he's like a 28-29% 3p shooter. Hell, I don't even have a problem with the volume, I have a problem with the type of shots, generally it's good 3pt shooters who can manage pull ups at a reasonable rate, he's gotta take the baby steps and make sure he can hit the C&S ones at a reasonable clip. Walk before you run you know?

I think I'd even be more open to the idea of him going for step back 3's with a defender on him, that's something you can only sort of emulate in practice, but just bringing the ball up the court and jacking up an ATB 3 without a defender anywhere close enough to contest? You don't need an in game environment for those is what I mean, lets see him get reps for stuff that requires a live game with unpredictable defences.

There's a bit of course correction in all of this.

In the first 4 games he took only an average of 2.8 threes which isn't enough.

In the last 4 games he's taking 7.8 threes which might be too many.

On average as a whole he's taking 5.3 which seems about right, it's just the variance is a bit crazy.

His percentages from 3 will get better though as he's not a 23.8% three point shooter. I hope he can at least get to 33% from 3 this year on high enough volume. (prove last year overall wasn't a mirage).

He's definitely not a 42.3/23.8/70.8 shooter.

The only real good thing about his scoring is he's getting to the FT line at an All Star clip. (6 FT's a game) .350 FTr.

I think what's underrated about his offensive game is his Offensive Rebounding. If he grabs the board the defence is in trouble as Barnes will likely score, get fouled or toss it to an open shooter.

[HiJiNX]

I think this year is a great year for Scottie to do a bunch of stuff that currently looks bad/ugly. At the very least we will see if he can start developing in some areas and if not, well then we focus on the strengths that he already has (15 feet and in).

[Scase]

Man are his percentages going to look ugly now.

I do think he should be taking some threes and see if he has it on the night, there's going to be nights when he just has it.

And then there's last night.

I'll also be honest, what people we're complaining about Barnes, they are also complaining about Wemby too.

I do think he does need to create his own shot at the perimeter regardless. wip.

Eh, wemby in his rookie year was putting up 5.5 3PA/g on 32.5%, and this year he's damn near doubled it at 9.3/g and his average has gone up around 1.5%, Scottie is taking more and making less (compared to last season).

I'm fine with him taking some, but he tends to just jack up a bunch right at the beginning of the game and miss most/all of them, then gets away from it later in the game. Spread that **** out, his highest average was 34% last year and that was mainly held up by a very hot start to the season, otherwise he's like a 28-29% 3p shooter. Hell, I don't even have a problem with the volume, I have a problem with the type of shots, generally it's good 3pt shooters who can manage pull ups at a reasonable rate, he's gotta take the baby steps and make sure he can hit the C&S ones at a reasonable clip. Walk before you run you know?

I think I'd even be more open to the idea of him going for step back 3's with a defender on him, that's something you can only sort of emulate in practice, but just bringing the ball up the court and jacking up an ATB 3 without a defender anywhere close enough to contest? You don't need an in game environment for those is what I mean, lets see him get reps for stuff that requires a live game with unpredictable defences.

There's a bit of course correction in all of this.

In the first 4 games he took only an average of 2.8 threes which isn't enough.

In the last 4 games he's taking 7.8 threes which might be too many.

On average as a whole he's taking 5.3 which seems about right, it's just the variance is a bit crazy.

His percentages from 3 will get better though as he's not a 23.8% three point shooter. I hope he can at least get to 33% from 3 this year on high enough volume. (prove last year overall wasn't a mirage).

He's definitely not a 42.3/23.8/70.8 shooter.

The only real good thing about his scoring is he's getting to the FT line at an All Star clip. (6 FT's a game) .350 FTr.

I think what's underrated about his offensive game is his Offensive Rebounding. If he grabs the board the defence is in trouble as Barnes will likely score, get fouled or toss it to an open shooter.

Like I said, I have no issue with the volume, I have issue with the shot selection. ATB pull ups are not something he is even remotely good at, and you don't need those in game to improve.

[Thaddy]

I think this year is a great year for Scottie to do a bunch of stuff that currently looks bad/ugly. At the very least we will see if he can start developing in some areas and if not, well then we focus on the strengths that he already has (15 feet and in).

The roster looks like it's built to focus on his development. That is an important aspect of winning a contender and maybe Masai is playing 4D chess.

Mogbo is an easy one to spot. They train together, improved a lot individually by working out together, they are good friends, and they gave him a 3 year commitment.

Mitchell and Shead are great defensive players and led great cultures in college. They will test Scottie's handle by applying ball pressure in practice.

Poeltl can't pull his defender to the 3pt line. This crowds the floor and Barnes has to deal with several layers of defense. A stretch big like Horford opens the interior to players like Tatum and Brown. Barnes has physical advantages over both of those guys but isn't as great of a shooter. The lack of space makes him move to his mid range game and put up more threes which is good for his future.

[Vampirate]

Eh, wemby in his rookie year was putting up 5.5 3PA/g on 32.5%, and this year he's damn near doubled it at 9.3/g and his average has gone up around 1.5%, Scottie is taking more and making less (compared to last season).

I'm fine with him taking some, but he tends to just jack up a bunch right at the beginning of the game and miss most/all of them, then gets away from it later in the game. Spread that **** out, his highest average was 34% last year and that was mainly held up by a very hot start to the season, otherwise he's like a 28-29% 3p shooter. Hell, I don't even have a problem with the volume, I have a problem with the type of shots, generally it's good 3pt shooters who can manage pull ups at a reasonable rate, he's gotta take the baby steps and make sure he can hit the C&S ones at a reasonable clip. Walk before you run you know?

I think I'd even be more open to the idea of him going for step back 3's with a defender on him, that's something you can only sort of emulate in practice, but just bringing the ball up the court and jacking up an ATB 3 without a defender anywhere close enough to contest? You don't need an in game environment for those is what I mean, lets see him get reps for stuff that requires a live game with unpredictable defences.

There's a bit of course correction in all of this.

In the first 4 games he took only an average of 2.8 threes which isn't enough.

In the last 4 games he's taking 7.8 threes which might be too many.

On average as a whole he's taking 5.3 which seems about right, it's just the variance is a bit crazy.

His percentages from 3 will get better though as he's not a 23.8% three point shooter. I hope he can at least get to 33% from 3 this year on high enough volume. (prove last year overall wasn't a mirage).

He's definitely not a 42.3/23.8/70.8 shooter.

The only real good thing about his scoring is he's getting to the FT line at an All Star clip. (6 FT's a game) .350 FTr.

I think what's underrated about his offensive game is his Offensive Rebounding. If he grabs the board the defence is in trouble as Barnes will likely score, get fouled or toss it to an open shooter.

Like I said, I have no issue with the volume, I have issue with the shot selection. ATB pull ups are not something he is even remotely good at, and you don't need those in game to improve.

I trust in Barnes BBIQ overall so i'm not too worried. Last night was just an aberration imo.

It's possible that Barnes is looking to become more aggressive overall which might have the side effect of taking more risky shots/decisions. (less playing it safe).

The opposite side of this is if Barnes managed to get hot from 3 with his shooting, it would force the defence to really scramble/worry about him. Obviously that didn't happen.

I also noticed that the misses he had in the N.O game were much worse than the Pistons game imo.

[Vampirate]

The whole point of a prospect is to develop their game. We aren't trying to win. Draymond Greens grow on trees. Masai hopes that Scottie can become more than that. I'd be pretty disappointed in this FO and coaching staff if they gave up on Scottie's development this early in his career.

The part of development that we want Scottie to work on inside the arc is hindered by the square peg that is Jak being jammed into the round hole that is Barnes' space on the floor.

Until that's fixed, it's a great time to work on his perimeter game. We know he showed good signs of being a competent C&S 3 guy beyond the arc. Keep the pull-ups coming for a while.

Except Barrett who’s primary method of scoring is attacking the paint hasn’t had problems scoring in the paint with yak inside.

In the Detroit game yak cleared out a wide open lane for Barnes and he smoked the lefty layup. There’s things about Barnes game that are limited when it comes to post play. Unless you’re trying to develop him into a back to the basket bruiser.

The topic of yaks spacing offensively might be a talking point when we’re talking about overall team dynamics and efficiency but it’s not what’s holding Barnes as an individual back offensively. That being said, regardless Barnes absolutely needs to be able to shoot to be an efficient offensive player. He’s never gonna be a great scorer if he can’t shoot. So I actually want him to keep jacking up 3s. Again if you actually pay attention to what made him look like a budding star last year, it was just the fact that he was shooting like 40% from 3 to start the season.

Get off it dude

RJ with a .323 2P assist rate is at .620/.366/.375/.333------career .621/.352/.306/.333

Barnes with a .354 2P assist rate is at a .654/. 477/.500/.273 ------career .707/.463/.344/.386

They aren't comparable, RJ is worse, Barnes looks bad simply because he's shooting dismally from 3 (23.8%)

Barnes actual 2 point offensive creation has actually been good overall (outside 0-3 feet which should improve).


RJ simply isn't who you think he is, and Barnes (as limited as he might be athletically) is a much better scorer than RJ is (2P wise at least).

RJ does have the edge in 3P shooting, i'll give him that.

[Dalek]

I think this year is a great year for Scottie to do a bunch of stuff that currently looks bad/ugly. At the very least we will see if he can start developing in some areas and if not, well then we focus on the strengths that he already has (15 feet and in).

Putting up 26 shots mostly from the perimeter is a waste of time.

Scottie has to first get healthy enough to not have to wear those stupid glasses that fall-off (I mean I never saw Horace Grant loses his goggles once). It is obviously impacting his shooting and the injury is making him play scared. Just sit him until he is fully ready.

Once healthy, he has to go to the post and do work and not be afraid of taking a hit. His bread and butter should be in the post or elbows not floating on the perimeter. It is bogging down the whole offense watching him operate as a guard/initiator.

Next we have to move on Poeltl while the value is sky-high. Get some type of stretch big to give Scottie some space to operate. We should be moving towards better spacing, not inflating Poeltl's numbers.

[sidsid]

The part of development that we want Scottie to work on inside the arc is hindered by the square peg that is Jak being jammed into the round hole that is Barnes' space on the floor.

Until that's fixed, it's a great time to work on his perimeter game. We know he showed good signs of being a competent C&S 3 guy beyond the arc. Keep the pull-ups coming for a while.

Except Barrett who’s primary method of scoring is attacking the paint hasn’t had problems scoring in the paint with yak inside.

In the Detroit game yak cleared out a wide open lane for Barnes and he smoked the lefty layup. There’s things about Barnes game that are limited when it comes to post play. Unless you’re trying to develop him into a back to the basket bruiser.

The topic of yaks spacing offensively might be a talking point when we’re talking about overall team dynamics and efficiency but it’s not what’s holding Barnes as an individual back offensively. That being said, regardless Barnes absolutely needs to be able to shoot to be an efficient offensive player. He’s never gonna be a great scorer if he can’t shoot. So I actually want him to keep jacking up 3s. Again if you actually pay attention to what made him look like a budding star last year, it was just the fact that he was shooting like 40% from 3 to start the season.

Get off it dude

RJ with a .323 2P assist rate is at .620/.366/.375/.333------career .621/.352/.306/.333

Barnes with a .354 2P assist rate is at a .654/. 477/.500/.273 ------career .707/.463/.344/.386

They aren't comparable, RJ is worse, Barnes looks bad simply because he's shooting dismally from 3 (23.8%)

Barnes actual 2 point offensive creation has actually been good overall (outside 0-3 feet which should improve).


RJ simply isn't who you think he is, and Barnes (as limited as he might be athletically) is a much better scorer than RJ is (2P wise at least).

RJ does have the edge in 3P shooting, i'll give him that.

Just to clarify the intent of my post here as well.

I'm not talking about Scottie posting up, or whatever. It is leveraging his playmaking bias and abilities in the middle of the floor where Jak sets up which would help the rest of the team and himself score opportunistically.

We don't want RJ establishing himself in the middle of the floor, because his advantages are on the drive from the perimeter getting to the paint. We want him playing more like Norm, with a hopefully similar 40% from 3 which would allow him to leverage his greatest strength more.