Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[Dalek]

Chet went down and OKC started Jalen Williams as a C. It is crazy to think a 6'5 guy can play C and not Barnes who is bigger and grittier. I know he has a facial injury but in time he should play some C minutes. There are advantages there.

This Athletic article highlights that you don't always need a big to function:

The Thunder still lead the league in points allowed per possession. They force more turnovers than anyone. The trend has remained true with or without a top-notch shot-blocker: This team, which is now 14-4, doesn’t defend quite like any other — especially when Williams runs at center, which Daigneault calls “a muscle that if we do it effectively, which we’ve done to this point, will help us in the future.”

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5953873/2024/11/28/nba-thunder-defense-jalen-williams?source=user-shared-article

Barnes being a guard has no advantages, it is what defenses want. He can still run the offense in transition, do the odd pull-up, but he should be at the elbows in the halfcourt. He can be a C as a defender. We shouldn't be so accommodating to his desires.

[AbC?]

Chet went down and OKC started Jalen Williams as a C. It is crazy to think a 6'5 guy can play C and not Barnes who is bigger and grittier. I know he has a facial injury but in time he should play some C minutes. There are advantages there.

This Athletic article highlights that you don't always need a big to function:

The Thunder still lead the league in points allowed per possession. They force more turnovers than anyone. The trend has remained true with or without a top-notch shot-blocker: This team, which is now 14-4, doesn’t defend quite like any other — especially when Williams runs at center, which Daigneault calls “a muscle that if we do it effectively, which we’ve done to this point, will help us in the future.”

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5953873/2024/11/28/nba-thunder-defense-jalen-williams?source=user-shared-article

Barnes being a guard has no advantages, it is what defenses want. He can still run the offense in transition, do the odd pull-up, but he should be at the elbows in the halfcourt. He can be a C as a defender. We shouldn't be so accommodating to his desires.

It's really not fair to Barnes to compare him to Jalen Williams. Dude is just better on both ends.

[Vampirate]

Chet went down and OKC started Jalen Williams as a C. It is crazy to think a 6'5 guy can play C and not Barnes who is bigger and grittier. I know he has a facial injury but in time he should play some C minutes. There are advantages there.

This Athletic article highlights that you don't always need a big to function:

The Thunder still lead the league in points allowed per possession. They force more turnovers than anyone. The trend has remained true with or without a top-notch shot-blocker: This team, which is now 14-4, doesn’t defend quite like any other — especially when Williams runs at center, which Daigneault calls “a muscle that if we do it effectively, which we’ve done to this point, will help us in the future.”

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5953873/2024/11/28/nba-thunder-defense-jalen-williams?source=user-shared-article

Barnes being a guard has no advantages, it is what defenses want. He can still run the offense in transition, do the odd pull-up, but he should be at the elbows in the halfcourt. He can be a C as a defender. We shouldn't be so accommodating to his desires.

Counter point.

What if Barnes doing what he's doing leads us to getting Flagg (or top 5 pick at least)?

If Barnes is experimenting on his game and it leads to losses (and thus a higher pick) who really cares.

[Scase]

There's a bit of course correction in all of this.

In the first 4 games he took only an average of 2.8 threes which isn't enough.

In the last 4 games he's taking 7.8 threes which might be too many.

On average as a whole he's taking 5.3 which seems about right, it's just the variance is a bit crazy.

His percentages from 3 will get better though as he's not a 23.8% three point shooter. I hope he can at least get to 33% from 3 this year on high enough volume. (prove last year overall wasn't a mirage).

He's definitely not a 42.3/23.8/70.8 shooter.

The only real good thing about his scoring is he's getting to the FT line at an All Star clip. (6 FT's a game) .350 FTr.

I think what's underrated about his offensive game is his Offensive Rebounding. If he grabs the board the defence is in trouble as Barnes will likely score, get fouled or toss it to an open shooter.

Like I said, I have no issue with the volume, I have issue with the shot selection. ATB pull ups are not something he is even remotely good at, and you don't need those in game to improve.

I trust in Barnes BBIQ overall so i'm not too worried. Last night was just an aberration imo.

It's possible that Barnes is looking to become more aggressive overall which might have the side effect of taking more risky shots/decisions. (less playing it safe).

The opposite side of this is if Barnes managed to get hot from 3 with his shooting, it would force the defence to really scramble/worry about him. Obviously that didn't happen.

I also noticed that the misses he had in the N.O game were much worse than the Pistons game imo.

Eh it was both the pistons/NOLA games, he took 8 3pa in the first half in both games, despite shooting a horrendous 4/16. He can be more aggressive without being just awful overall lol. Also the "if he got hot" aspect while true, for a career 30% shooter, isn't exactly something you put money on.

The reason he is so open taking those, is because he isn't a threat. All I'm saying is without him getting abnormally lucky, it's just wasted energy that could be spent on other aspects of his game that need more reps during live games.

[Vampirate]

Like I said, I have no issue with the volume, I have issue with the shot selection. ATB pull ups are not something he is even remotely good at, and you don't need those in game to improve.

I trust in Barnes BBIQ overall so i'm not too worried. Last night was just an aberration imo.

It's possible that Barnes is looking to become more aggressive overall which might have the side effect of taking more risky shots/decisions. (less playing it safe).

The opposite side of this is if Barnes managed to get hot from 3 with his shooting, it would force the defence to really scramble/worry about him. Obviously that didn't happen.

I also noticed that the misses he had in the N.O game were much worse than the Pistons game imo.

Eh it was both the pistons/NOLA games, he took 8 3pa in the first half in both games, despite shooting a horrendous 4/16. He can be more aggressive without being just awful overall lol. Also the "if he got hot" aspect while true, for a career 30% shooter, isn't exactly something you put money on.

The reason he is so open taking those, is because he isn't a threat. All I'm saying is without him getting abnormally lucky, it's just wasted energy that could be spent on other aspects of his game that need more reps during live games.

Not even close.

In Detroit he shot 37.5% from 3 on 8 Attempts which is very good.

In N.O. he shot 16.7% on 2 of 12 attempts which is god god awful.

Thus far since the return he's had 2 games where he's shot close to 40% and 2 games where he's shot under 20%.

As for his other game, i'd like to honestly see him get his shooting from 10-16 feet closer to 15-20% of his total shots. (he's shooting .500 there, and i'd like to see about where it declines to, it's not so much about if it does, but how much)

[Ell Curry]

Chet went down and OKC started Jalen Williams as a C. It is crazy to think a 6'5 guy can play C and not Barnes who is bigger and grittier. I know he has a facial injury but in time he should play some C minutes. There are advantages there.

This Athletic article highlights that you don't always need a big to function:

The Thunder still lead the league in points allowed per possession. They force more turnovers than anyone. The trend has remained true with or without a top-notch shot-blocker: This team, which is now 14-4, doesn’t defend quite like any other — especially when Williams runs at center, which Daigneault calls “a muscle that if we do it effectively, which we’ve done to this point, will help us in the future.”

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5953873/2024/11/28/nba-thunder-defense-jalen-williams?source=user-shared-article

Barnes being a guard has no advantages, it is what defenses want. He can still run the offense in transition, do the odd pull-up, but he should be at the elbows in the halfcourt. He can be a C as a defender. We shouldn't be so accommodating to his desires.

It's fine for now, but depending on our next roster moves, if we do replace Darko in the future, a coach who can get Scottie to buy into playing center as we run smallball makes a ton of sense.

[sidsid]

Chet went down and OKC started Jalen Williams as a C. It is crazy to think a 6'5 guy can play C and not Barnes who is bigger and grittier. I know he has a facial injury but in time he should play some C minutes. There are advantages there.

This Athletic article highlights that you don't always need a big to function:

The Thunder still lead the league in points allowed per possession. They force more turnovers than anyone. The trend has remained true with or without a top-notch shot-blocker: This team, which is now 14-4, doesn’t defend quite like any other — especially when Williams runs at center, which Daigneault calls “a muscle that if we do it effectively, which we’ve done to this point, will help us in the future.”

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5953873/2024/11/28/nba-thunder-defense-jalen-williams?source=user-shared-article

Barnes being a guard has no advantages, it is what defenses want. He can still run the offense in transition, do the odd pull-up, but he should be at the elbows in the halfcourt. He can be a C as a defender. We shouldn't be so accommodating to his desires.

In general, you want to play your most versatile talent across the board, and the C position is where the least versatile players tend to be. We've seen it with the death lineup, AD playing at C whenever you can convince him to, the Cavs knowing the Allen/Mobley minutes won't work in the playoffs, etc.

There has never been a long term role for Jak on this team as long as Siakam or Barnes was on it. KO is fine for 15-20 minutes a game to save on wear and tear. You can play your end-of-bench stiff for the Embiid/Jokic matchups in our development years.

And nothing about how your offense works has to change at all for the position, it's purely getting away with it on D. JWill is not all of a sudden going to be posting up Jokic because of the position he plays. It's the opponent that adapts to you, if they even can.

[Scase]

I trust in Barnes BBIQ overall so i'm not too worried. Last night was just an aberration imo.

It's possible that Barnes is looking to become more aggressive overall which might have the side effect of taking more risky shots/decisions. (less playing it safe).

The opposite side of this is if Barnes managed to get hot from 3 with his shooting, it would force the defence to really scramble/worry about him. Obviously that didn't happen.

I also noticed that the misses he had in the N.O game were much worse than the Pistons game imo.

Eh it was both the pistons/NOLA games, he took 8 3pa in the first half in both games, despite shooting a horrendous 4/16. He can be more aggressive without being just awful overall lol. Also the "if he got hot" aspect while true, for a career 30% shooter, isn't exactly something you put money on.

The reason he is so open taking those, is because he isn't a threat. All I'm saying is without him getting abnormally lucky, it's just wasted energy that could be spent on other aspects of his game that need more reps during live games.

Not even close.

In Detroit he shot 37.5% from 3 on 8 Attempts which is very good.

In N.O. he shot 16.7% on 2 of 12 attempts which is god god awful.

Thus far since the return he's had 2 games where he's shot close to 40% and 2 games where he's shot under 20%.

As for his other game, i'd like to honestly see him get his shooting from 10-16 feet closer to 15-20% of his total shots. (he's shooting .500 there, and i'd like to see about where it declines to, it's not so much about if it does, but how much)

You're missing my point. It's that he comes into the games guns blazing when he really shouldn't be. He smartly stopped shooting 3's in the 2nd half of that detroit game. His 2 "40%" games, were a grand total of 5 made 3's, it's such a small amount its not even worth mentioning.

3/8 is a good %, if you can do that consistently. But it's such a pathetic sample size that 1 more miss and he drops to 25% and 1 more make shoots him up to 50%. Since his return, he's taking 8 3's a game, and shooting 26%. He's probably not that bad, but he's also definitely not 40% good.

I don't really care if he's shooting poorly because of his eye, his hand, or just cause he sucks at 3's, the point remains the same, you need to be a better shooter before you start taking that many ATB pull ups.

There is zero benefit to both the team, or his own development for him to be taking those kinds of shots so frequently in game.

[Vampirate]

Eh it was both the pistons/NOLA games, he took 8 3pa in the first half in both games, despite shooting a horrendous 4/16. He can be more aggressive without being just awful overall lol. Also the "if he got hot" aspect while true, for a career 30% shooter, isn't exactly something you put money on.

The reason he is so open taking those, is because he isn't a threat. All I'm saying is without him getting abnormally lucky, it's just wasted energy that could be spent on other aspects of his game that need more reps during live games.

Not even close.

In Detroit he shot 37.5% from 3 on 8 Attempts which is very good.

In N.O. he shot 16.7% on 2 of 12 attempts which is god god awful.

Thus far since the return he's had 2 games where he's shot close to 40% and 2 games where he's shot under 20%.

As for his other game, i'd like to honestly see him get his shooting from 10-16 feet closer to 15-20% of his total shots. (he's shooting .500 there, and i'd like to see about where it declines to, it's not so much about if it does, but how much)

You're missing my point. It's that he comes into the games guns blazing when he really shouldn't be. He smartly stopped shooting 3's in the 2nd half of that detroit game. His 2 "40%" games, were a grand total of 5 made 3's, it's such a small amount its not even worth mentioning.

3/8 is a good %, if you can do that consistently. But it's such a pathetic sample size that 1 more miss and he drops to 25% and 1 more make shoots him up to 50%. Since his return, he's taking 8 3's a game, and shooting 26%. He's probably not that bad, but he's also definitely not 40% good.

I don't really care if he's shooting poorly because of his eye, his hand, or just cause he sucks at 3's, the point remains the same, you need to be a better shooter before you start taking that many ATB pull ups.

There is zero benefit to both the team, or his own development for him to be taking those kinds of shots so frequently in game.

He clearly has range to about 10 feet, I want to see if he can extend that out to 16 feet.

His shooting from 16-3P should rise, i'm not buying him at .273 there, just like there's scepticism of his .500 at 10-16 feet.

Also only getting 2 Fts in the N.O game is bad. He needs to be consistent there too.

In the end we're all dissecting a very small sample size.

[Scase]

Not even close.

In Detroit he shot 37.5% from 3 on 8 Attempts which is very good.

In N.O. he shot 16.7% on 2 of 12 attempts which is god god awful.

Thus far since the return he's had 2 games where he's shot close to 40% and 2 games where he's shot under 20%.

As for his other game, i'd like to honestly see him get his shooting from 10-16 feet closer to 15-20% of his total shots. (he's shooting .500 there, and i'd like to see about where it declines to, it's not so much about if it does, but how much)

You're missing my point. It's that he comes into the games guns blazing when he really shouldn't be. He smartly stopped shooting 3's in the 2nd half of that detroit game. His 2 "40%" games, were a grand total of 5 made 3's, it's such a small amount its not even worth mentioning.

3/8 is a good %, if you can do that consistently. But it's such a pathetic sample size that 1 more miss and he drops to 25% and 1 more make shoots him up to 50%. Since his return, he's taking 8 3's a game, and shooting 26%. He's probably not that bad, but he's also definitely not 40% good.

I don't really care if he's shooting poorly because of his eye, his hand, or just cause he sucks at 3's, the point remains the same, you need to be a better shooter before you start taking that many ATB pull ups.

There is zero benefit to both the team, or his own development for him to be taking those kinds of shots so frequently in game.

He clearly has range to about 10 feet, I want to see if he can extend that out to 16 feet.

His shooting from 16-3P should rise, i'm not buying him at .273 there, just like there's scepticism of his .500 at 10-16 feet.

Also only getting 2 Fts in the N.O game is bad. He needs to be consistent there too.

In the end we're all dissecting a very small sample size.

The sample size this year is small, but Scottie has 210 other games showing that he is a 31% 3p shooter. Again, I'm not saying he should take no shots, I'm saying taking shots that are WAY outside a players skill area, is not going to magically improve just cause it's in a game. He should be taking 3's absolutely, he just should be taking better 3's.

Nobody on the roster not named Immanuel Quickley should be taking that many ATB pull ups. I criticize RJ as I do Gradey, as I do Scottie. A bad shot is a bad shot.

[Indeed]

Chet went down and OKC started Jalen Williams as a C. It is crazy to think a 6'5 guy can play C and not Barnes who is bigger and grittier. I know he has a facial injury but in time he should play some C minutes. There are advantages there.

This Athletic article highlights that you don't always need a big to function:

The Thunder still lead the league in points allowed per possession. They force more turnovers than anyone. The trend has remained true with or without a top-notch shot-blocker: This team, which is now 14-4, doesn’t defend quite like any other — especially when Williams runs at center, which Daigneault calls “a muscle that if we do it effectively, which we’ve done to this point, will help us in the future.”

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5953873/2024/11/28/nba-thunder-defense-jalen-williams?source=user-shared-article

Barnes being a guard has no advantages, it is what defenses want. He can still run the offense in transition, do the odd pull-up, but he should be at the elbows in the halfcourt. He can be a C as a defender. We shouldn't be so accommodating to his desires.

It's fine for now, but depending on our next roster moves, if we do replace Darko in the future, a coach who can get Scottie to buy into playing center as we run smallball makes a ton of sense.

If we tried 2 coaches, I dont think we will try the 3rd. Much like Casey is there for DeRozan, Nurse is there for Leonard / VanVleet, Darko is there for Barnes. Barnes has not shown Doncic level domination that demands coaches to work for him, at least not up to now.

Our next coach will be for our upcoming top 5 pick if Barnes doesn'y work out in this and next year.

[Indeed]

You're missing my point. It's that he comes into the games guns blazing when he really shouldn't be. He smartly stopped shooting 3's in the 2nd half of that detroit game. His 2 "40%" games, were a grand total of 5 made 3's, it's such a small amount its not even worth mentioning.

3/8 is a good %, if you can do that consistently. But it's such a pathetic sample size that 1 more miss and he drops to 25% and 1 more make shoots him up to 50%. Since his return, he's taking 8 3's a game, and shooting 26%. He's probably not that bad, but he's also definitely not 40% good.

I don't really care if he's shooting poorly because of his eye, his hand, or just cause he sucks at 3's, the point remains the same, you need to be a better shooter before you start taking that many ATB pull ups.

There is zero benefit to both the team, or his own development for him to be taking those kinds of shots so frequently in game.

He clearly has range to about 10 feet, I want to see if he can extend that out to 16 feet.

His shooting from 16-3P should rise, i'm not buying him at .273 there, just like there's scepticism of his .500 at 10-16 feet.

Also only getting 2 Fts in the N.O game is bad. He needs to be consistent there too.

In the end we're all dissecting a very small sample size.

The sample size this year is small, but Scottie has 210 other games showing that he is a 31% 3p shooter. Again, I'm not saying he should take no shots, I'm saying taking shots that are WAY outside a players skill area, is not going to magically improve just cause it's in a game. He should be taking 3's absolutely, he just should be taking better 3's.

Nobody on the roster not named Immanuel Quickley should be taking that many ATB pull ups. I criticize RJ as I do Gradey, as I do Scottie. A bad shot is a bad shot.

Sadly, 31% is not enough to warrent for a near max contract without the skill or quickness in getting to the rim. He will need to shoot like Sabonis in the 37% with the ability to score in other ways (eg. postup, instead of transition).

[Scase]

He clearly has range to about 10 feet, I want to see if he can extend that out to 16 feet.

His shooting from 16-3P should rise, i'm not buying him at .273 there, just like there's scepticism of his .500 at 10-16 feet.

Also only getting 2 Fts in the N.O game is bad. He needs to be consistent there too.

In the end we're all dissecting a very small sample size.

The sample size this year is small, but Scottie has 210 other games showing that he is a 31% 3p shooter. Again, I'm not saying he should take no shots, I'm saying taking shots that are WAY outside a players skill area, is not going to magically improve just cause it's in a game. He should be taking 3's absolutely, he just should be taking better 3's.

Nobody on the roster not named Immanuel Quickley should be taking that many ATB pull ups. I criticize RJ as I do Gradey, as I do Scottie. A bad shot is a bad shot.

Sadly, 31% is not enough to warrent for a near max contract without the skill or quickness in getting to the rim. He will need to shoot like Sabonis in the 37% with the ability to score in other ways (eg. postup, instead of transition).

As much as I think he needs to improve on it, I don't fully agree. If you look at someone like Sabonis, he doesn't provide nearly as much of the defensive ability Barnes does. Don't forget, these contracts aren't only based on offence.

[tsherkin]

Sadly, 31% is not enough to warrent for a near max contract without the skill or quickness in getting to the rim. He will need to shoot like Sabonis in the 37% with the ability to score in other ways (eg. postup, instead of transition).

34-35% has worked for SGA. What Scottie needs is a mid-range game, and it's much more likely that he'll manage that with his size and ability to create separation than that he will become an above average 3pt shooter.

[MikeM]

He's never going to shoot. Just pair him with a stretch 5 or trade him. Pretty simple.

[Indeed]

Sadly, 31% is not enough to warrent for a near max contract without the skill or quickness in getting to the rim. He will need to shoot like Sabonis in the 37% with the ability to score in other ways (eg. postup, instead of transition).

34-35% has worked for SGA. What Scottie needs is a mid-range game, and it's much more likely that he'll manage that with his size and ability to create separation than that he will become an above average 3pt shooter.

Sure, we shall see, so far he is much more unlikely to create separation.
Keep in mind that SGA or Barrett, those have quick first step, while Barnes doesn't seem to have that, which has been the reason some of us do not see him capable of being an efficient scorer that would demand double team.

[Indeed]

The sample size this year is small, but Scottie has 210 other games showing that he is a 31% 3p shooter. Again, I'm not saying he should take no shots, I'm saying taking shots that are WAY outside a players skill area, is not going to magically improve just cause it's in a game. He should be taking 3's absolutely, he just should be taking better 3's.

Nobody on the roster not named Immanuel Quickley should be taking that many ATB pull ups. I criticize RJ as I do Gradey, as I do Scottie. A bad shot is a bad shot.

Sadly, 31% is not enough to warrent for a near max contract without the skill or quickness in getting to the rim. He will need to shoot like Sabonis in the 37% with the ability to score in other ways (eg. postup, instead of transition).

As much as I think he needs to improve on it, I don't fully agree. If you look at someone like Sabonis, he doesn't provide nearly as much of the defensive ability Barnes does. Don't forget, these contracts aren't only based on offence.

Unsure Barnes provided that much of the defensive ability. Because he double the other team and get some stats, instead of any good team that can defend straight one on one, like Anonoby defense?

[tsherkin]

Sure, we shall see, so far he is much more unlikely to create separation.
Keep in mind that SGA or Barrett, those have quick first step, while Barnes doesn't seem to have that, which has been the reason some of us do not see him capable of being an efficient scorer that would demand double team.

Sure, but like I said earlier, Scottie appears to have no issue using screen entry to reach the elbow. It's getting all the way to the rim which causes the issues for him, and finishing.

Not that he's quite the same, but looking at Oscar or Old Lebron wouldn't be bad starts for how to try and develop his game. Obviously not expecting comparable performance, but like, some of the stuff Lebron's doing is already in Scottie's wheelhouse, and there are a couple of other things he needs to specifically work on. So we'll see where he gets.

[Scase]

Sadly, 31% is not enough to warrent for a near max contract without the skill or quickness in getting to the rim. He will need to shoot like Sabonis in the 37% with the ability to score in other ways (eg. postup, instead of transition).

As much as I think he needs to improve on it, I don't fully agree. If you look at someone like Sabonis, he doesn't provide nearly as much of the defensive ability Barnes does. Don't forget, these contracts aren't only based on offence.

Unsure Barnes provided that much of the defensive ability. Because he double the other team and get some stats, instead of any good team that can defend straight one on one, like Anonoby defense?

Scottie isn't a man defender, he's a help defender, both different and both can be elite at their respective roles. Also OG is one of the best defenders in the entire league, so that's a pretty high bar to hold him up to.

Scottie is younger than both OG and Sabonis, while being much better on offence than OG and much better on defence than Sabonis. Hence the contract.

[mdenny]

3/8 is a good %, if you can do that consistently. But it's such a pathetic sample size that 1 more miss and he drops to 25% and 1 more make shoots him up to 50%. Since his return, he's taking 8 3's a game, and shooting 26%. He's probably not that bad, but he's also definitely not 40% good.

It's crazy that you can type this without becoming aware of the absurdity in being obsessed by shooting efficiency while ignoring literally EVERYTHING else.

The fact that "one more miss" or "one more make" makes such a huge difference in the stats should indicate to you that the stats aren't what is most important.

Instead....you suggest scotty should dictate his game-play with the sole purpose of maximizing effiency numbers. Maybe he also shouldn't heave half court shots at the buzzer of the first quarter too? It would be so damaging to his efficiency!

There's an additional consideration in basketball that I suggest you overlook. It's called "winning the game".

If scotty has to shoot a low efficiency to win a game....he should.