How long until the Bulls actually fully commit to a rebuild?

[DASMACKDOWN]

Its starts the moment Zach or Vooch are moved.

I think people are frustrating in a direction because nothing has happened yet. The first domino has to fall.

I maybe the only one but I do think AKME are trying to stealth tank here.

How I know this? Because of Demar and AC. If we really wanted to stay this course, we would have kept one if not both. But out of AKME's own mouth he said it wasn't working.

So really people shouldn't make any decisions on this until something happens. We can't just sit Vooch and Zach because the league would come down on us.

I think the idea is to play this guy through the trade eligible dates for newly signed players in Dec and Jan and see what can be done before the actual trade deadline.

[Infinity2152]

Its starts the moment Zach or Vooch are moved.

I think people are frustrating in a direction because nothing has happened yet. The first domino has to fall.

I maybe the only one but I do think AKME are trying to stealth tank here.

How I know this? Because of Demar and AC. If we really wanted to stay this course, we would have kept one if not both. But out of AKME's own mouth he said it wasn't working.

So really people shouldn't make any decisions on this until something happens. We can't just sit Vooch and Zach because the league would come down on us.

I think the idea is to play this guy through the trade eligible dates for newly signed players in Dec and Jan and see what can be done before the actual trade deadline.

This right here. If the Bulls want to rebuild, how do they do it? By making pretty much all the players available, especially the older ones. Which is where we are now. Doesn't mean it's smart to take crap deals to do it. Letting Derozan leave, trading Caruso, putting Lavine and Vuc and apparently even Pat indicates they're ready to move pretty much all big contracts. They already started the rebuild with the departure of Derozan and trading Caruso for a much younger prospect.

Know what's weird? The people complaining about Pat and Giddey, two of our youngest players, for not being way better than they were just a few months ago, are the same ones who want a rebuild. If Pat, Giddey and Matas were playing to their highest potential right now, do the odds of trading Zach and Vuc go up or down? It's WAAAAY better for our rebuild if Pat, Giddey and even Matas are better next year, not now. Like literally talking about getting rid of 22-23 year old players in a rebuild, one locked up on contract that will look very reasonable in a year.

[Infinity2152]

Its starts the moment Zach or Vooch are moved.

I think people are frustrating in a direction because nothing has happened yet. The first domino has to fall.

I maybe the only one but I do think AKME are trying to stealth tank here.

How I know this? Because of Demar and AC. If we really wanted to stay this course, we would have kept one if not both. But out of AKME's own mouth he said it wasn't working.

So really people shouldn't make any decisions on this until something happens. We can't just sit Vooch and Zach because the league would come down on us.

I think the idea is to play this guy through the trade eligible dates for newly signed players in Dec and Jan and see what can be done before the actual trade deadline.

This right here. If the Bulls want to rebuild, how do they do it? By making pretty much all the players available, especially the older ones. Which is where we are now. Doesn't mean it's smart to take crap deals to do it. Letting Derozan leave, trading Caruso, putting Lavine and Vuc and apparently even Pat on the block indicates they're ready to move pretty much all big contracts. They already started the rebuild with the departure of Derozan and trading Caruso for a much younger prospect.

Know what's weird? The people complaining about Pat and Giddey, two of our youngest players, for not being way better than they were just a few months ago, are the same ones who want a rebuild. If Pat, Giddey and Matas were playing to their highest potential right now, do the odds of trading Zach and Vuc go up or down? It's WAAAAY better for our rebuild if Pat, Giddey and even Matas are better next year, not now. Like literally talking about getting rid of 22-23 year old players in a rebuild, one locked up on contract that will look very reasonable in a year.

[Chi town]

Dec 15th should get the rumors flying.

I think AK will be aggressive after overplaying his hand in the past.

[FriedRise]

Read on Twitter

Chicago entered Thanksgiving at 8-12, tied with Detroit for the league's eighth-worst record. That's already dangerous territory for the Bulls, whose 2025 first-round selection must be conveyed to San Antonio if it falls outside the top 10 after the draft lottery is conducted in May.

No surprise, then, that Bulls executives, according to league sources, have been messaging to rival front offices that they are willing to discuss the majority of their roster in trade talks leading up to the Feb. 6 trade deadline. Most notably, sources say, Chicago has expressed a desire to move LaVine, Vučević and Ball — who collectively command nearly $85 million in salary this season.

"Arturas is trying to drive up attention for all of his guys — he's smart," said one league figure with knowledge of the Bulls' thinking. "The fact they were willing to move DeMar and [Alex] Caruso [this past offseason], they're willing to move anybody [now]."

Rival executives have also openly questioned Chicago's inaction since that initial flurry of acquisitions in 2021 … especially when the Bulls could have been a significant seller during last February's deadline activity. Golden State believed it nearly had a deal for Caruso before the 2024 deadline buzzer sounded, sources said, which would have delivered multiple first-round picks to Chicago. Philadelphia was ready to send several second-round picks to Chicago for Andre Drummond, sources said, only for the Bulls to abruptly take Drummond off the market … and then watch him walk to Philadelphia without compensation in July in free agency.

There has long been a directive from Bulls ownership to make the playoffs at all costs. "That's been the mandate for 30 years," said one player agent. Yet that tune purportedly changed this past summer and the Bulls duly dealt Caruso to Oklahoma City in exchange for 22-year-old point guard Josh Giddey — albeit with no draft picks surrendered by the Thunder in the exchange. Chicago then helped facilitate the sign-and-trade that landed DeRozan in the California capitol, bringing back to two future second-round picks along with Chris Duarte.

[Muzbar]

The Bulls have played 20 games which is in fact only a quarter of the season.

So 10th right now is meaningless.

So how can you say, only a quarter of the season in, with certainty that the Bulls aren't a play-in team?

Because we give up 140 points......

124.

[Jstock12]

We aren’t a play-in team though....

The Bulls are currently the 10th seed, which is in fact a play-in spot.

The Bulls have played 20 games which is in fact only a quarter of the season.

So 10th right now is meaningless.

Simply being in contention for a play-in spot is enough. That's the sad reality. They will push for the play-in as long as it's somewhat possible.

[DuckIII]

Read on Twitter

Chicago entered Thanksgiving at 8-12, tied with Detroit for the league's eighth-worst record. That's already dangerous territory for the Bulls, whose 2025 first-round selection must be conveyed to San Antonio if it falls outside the top 10 after the draft lottery is conducted in May.

No surprise, then, that Bulls executives, according to league sources, have been messaging to rival front offices that they are willing to discuss the majority of their roster in trade talks leading up to the Feb. 6 trade deadline. Most notably, sources say, Chicago has expressed a desire to move LaVine, Vučević and Ball — who collectively command nearly $85 million in salary this season.

"Arturas is trying to drive up attention for all of his guys — he's smart," said one league figure with knowledge of the Bulls' thinking. "The fact they were willing to move DeMar and [Alex] Caruso [this past offseason], they're willing to move anybody [now]."

Rival executives have also openly questioned Chicago's inaction since that initial flurry of acquisitions in 2021 … especially when the Bulls could have been a significant seller during last February's deadline activity. Golden State believed it nearly had a deal for Caruso before the 2024 deadline buzzer sounded, sources said, which would have delivered multiple first-round picks to Chicago. Philadelphia was ready to send several second-round picks to Chicago for Andre Drummond, sources said, only for the Bulls to abruptly take Drummond off the market … and then watch him walk to Philadelphia without compensation in July in free agency.

There has long been a directive from Bulls ownership to make the playoffs at all costs. "That's been the mandate for 30 years," said one player agent. Yet that tune purportedly changed this past summer and the Bulls duly dealt Caruso to Oklahoma City in exchange for 22-year-old point guard Josh Giddey — albeit with no draft picks surrendered by the Thunder in the exchange. Chicago then helped facilitate the sign-and-trade that landed DeRozan in the California capitol, bringing back to two future second-round picks along with Chris Duarte.

There are two pretty big mistakes in that report.

1. Last year all reports were that no one wanted anything to do with any of our vets as trade pieces. I hate the inaccuracy of this particular one because AK delivered the decade-long franchise killing blow 2 trade deadlines ago when it was obvious to most of this board that the team had a middling ceiling and needed to be blown up while the players still had some value. Indeed, in the most hilariously incompetent admission I've ever seen from GM, AK actually lamented that there were "too many buyers" that year. Which was true. Look at the flurry of transactions that deadline. It was the perfect storm to take advantage of, many of us were saying so at the time and begging him to do something, and instead he AK'd all over the place. The decision to not act destroyed the franchise for a decade at least. It was predictable then (and in fact predicted by many) and happened. It was already too late by last trade deadline.

2. The Bulls have not had a playoff or bust mandate for 30 years. That's about as far from accurate as you will ever get. Both John Paxson and Jerry Krause embraced rebuilding multiple times with the full support of ownership. I do not know what goes on behind the scenes, but I know two things: (a) AK came in selling an immediate turn around to reach the playoffs, and then proceeded to do exactly what he said he would do in order to get the job in the first place; (b) in the last two years on two separate occasions AK has publicly stated that ownership gave him the "green light" to blow it up and rebuild, but he chose to not do that.

Lets get the facts right. Because getting them wrong massively understates what a historically colossal trainwreck AK has been.

[HomoSapien]

Why would we commit to a rebuild when we are only 30 wins away from being a contender?

[Chi town]

Don’t know how I feel about AK putting word around the league the whole roster is up for sale. Don’t think that helps players value.

I do think Vuc Craig and soon Zo will all be sought after. Don’t think Pat gets you a first until he comes back and plays well.

I think Coby will come back and be worth a non lottery 1st and a future 1st.

[Dan Z]

Why did the Bulls give up a 2025 pick for Demar? Its not like the Spur/DDR had a ton of competitive offers. Or that DDR was the Bulls "missing piece".

[kodo]

Why did the Bulls give up a 2025 pick for Demar? Its not like the Spur/DDR had a ton of competitive offers. Or that DDR was the Bulls "missing piece".

There were no trade offers for Demar because he was a UFA. But we didn't have the cap space to sign him, so we had to incentivize SAS to S&T him to us and take on a bunch of our salary. A 1st rounder is standard to unload a bunch of bad contracts to another team. If we had cap space that year we would have signed him and given SAS nothing.

TBH, a heavily protected 1st rounder isn't bad for someone of Demar's caliber. Sacramento traded an excellent shooter with size in Barnes plus an unprotected pick for him. Of course, we didn't take either but that's the Chicago FO. We'll see $100 and take the $20 instead.

[Evil_Headband]

Why did the Bulls give up a 2025 pick for Demar? Its not like the Spur/DDR had a ton of competitive offers. Or that DDR was the Bulls "missing piece".

It cost trade capital for the Spurs to agree to take on the contracts of Thaddeus Young and Al-Farouq Aminu.

[jnrjr79]

In terms of the question posed by the OP, the Bulls clearly *already are* rebuilding. That started when Caruso and DeMar were dealt. It continues with the Bulls wanting to trade Zach and Vooch and apparently a number of other guys.

The concern is the rebuild might get massively screwed up if the FO tries to do it in a way that prioritizes speed of a turnaround over draft capital/maximizing the chance at acquiring a real #1, etc.

So, the tea leaves I am reading this season are what the actual trades are. If we dump Vooch or whoever for, say, Brandon Ingram, I’m going to be very concerned. If it’s expiring salary and draft compensation, I’ll be happy.

[Dan Z]

Why did the Bulls give up a 2025 pick for Demar? Its not like the Spur/DDR had a ton of competitive offers. Or that DDR was the Bulls "missing piece".

There were no trade offers for Demar because he was a UFA. But we didn't have the cap space to sign him, so we had to incentivize SAS to S&T him to us and take on a bunch of our salary. A 1st rounder is standard to unload a bunch of bad contracts to another team. If we had cap space that year we would have signed him and given SAS nothing.

TBH, a heavily protected 1st rounder isn't bad for someone of Demar's caliber. Sacramento traded an excellent shooter with size in Barnes plus an unprotected pick for him. Of course, we didn't take either but that's the Chicago FO. We'll see $100 and take the $20 instead.

I bet if AK insisted on the 2025 pick being heavily protected (more so than top 10 protected) that the Spurs still agree(better yet no first round pick). Like i said there wasnt a big market for DDR at that time.

I point this out because AK has been a terribjr negotiator when it comes to picks (the Portland pick also comes to mind).

[Red8911]

I find it odd that the media has been trying so
hard to convince AK to sell all his players for nothing.This has been going on for a couple of years now but AK has not given them what they want.

I wonder who’s really starting these rumors? Other teams GMs ? hoping to get players for cheap ? AK should stick to his high asking price, if they give a good offer great but if not they can all fk off ! They are trying to bully AK into throwing everything away so it can benefit them.

[DuckIII]

I find it odd that the media has been trying so
hard to convince AK to sell all his players for nothing.This has been going on for a couple of years now but AK has not given them what they want.

I wonder who’s really starting these rumors? Other teams GMs ? hoping to get players for cheap ? AK should stick to his high asking price, if they give a good offer great but if not they can all fk off ! They are trying to bully AK into throwing everything away so it can benefit them.

The media has been saying the Bulls need to rebuild for 2 years for the same reason so many fans have been saying it: This team can't contend and has no assets to change that, so it must be torn down to acquire those assets and then rebuilt. Not because they are secretly doing the bidding of other GMs as part of a shadow conspiracy to deprive us of our precious bodily fluids. I mean super awesome players.

That said, Vuc's improvement has been a revelation and Zach actually is doing the things we all think he needs to do to raise his trade value. If AK can trade them this year for some type of real rebuilding value, he certainly will have proven that "dumping them for nothing" last year would have been a mistake.

I'd still dump them all for nothing if necessary this year to ensure we keep our pick.

[drosestruts]

We took a different path to reach this point, but I feel like we're already in a rebuild:

Patrick Williams - 23 years old - 4th overall pick
Coby White - 24 years old - 7th overall pick
Jalen Smith - 24 years old - 10th overall pick
Josh Giddey - 22 years old - 6th overall pick
Matas Buzelis - 20 years old - 11th overall pick

We have 5 lottery picks 24 or younger

Then we have additional young players like:

Ayo Dosunmu - 24 years old
Dalen Terry - 22 years old
Talen Horton Tucker - 24 years old
Julian Phillips - 21 years old

Just because we never intentionally tanked or something doesn't mean this team doesn't have a good deal of young talent.

The end result is the same - multiple years worth of top 10 picks and additional young talent from later first round and early second round picks.

With the rumors of our veteran players on the trade block I'm curious to see if AK/ME are looking for future draft consideration or current young players.

I always think it's interesting looking at the current Rockets team. They pretty much copied the AK/ME playbook, I just think they executed it better. They acquired young talent and then quickly added multiple veteran pieces. I just think their veteran talent fit the youth better.

I've long said - the Bulls haven't lacked talent, they've just lacked a cohesive team that compliments each other.

[DuckIII]

I always think it's interesting looking at the current Rockets team. They pretty much copied the AK/ME playbook, I just think they executed it better. They acquired young talent and then quickly added multiple veteran pieces. I just think their veteran talent fit the youth better.

I think you need to take a deeper look at what the Rockets did. This description is so superficial as to be misleading. The Rockets did exactly what you have strongly argued against the Bulls doing: They tanked and executed a classic rebuild. Then they added vet role players at the end of it, which is also a customary part of a true rebuild.

The Bulls never did that. Even in the years before AK, Gar was still trying to straddle the line between tanking and competing with vets which is why we kept ending up with #7 picks.

The Rockets did not. They executed a classic tank rebuild. A "classic tank" rebuild has several stages: (1) trade your vets to acquire youth and draft assets; (2) become very bad; (c) stay that way patiently while adding multiple high lottery players to your roster; (d) evaluate your roster and its development; (e) when you believe you have acquired the type of core young assets around which to build a contender, add vet leadership; and (f) start working your way up the standings.

In 2019-2020 the Rockets won 44 games. Morey left and they decided to rebuild, realizing the contention window had closed even though they could have remained "competitive." They traded Russell Westbrook to take on John Wall's horrible contract plus 2 first round picks. They also traded Harden for an even more valuable stockpile of draft assets: 3 firsts, 4 first round pick swaps, and a first from the Cavaliers (three team trade).

As a result of these trades the Rockets immediately went from a 44 win team with highly valued vets to a 17 win team with the worst record in the league. They then continued to intentionally suck miserably for two more years, finishing with 20 (worst in the NBA) and 22 wins (second worst in the NBA) respectively. It was only after they did these things which took 4 years of gutting and then losing, and only after they determined the type of youth acquired could actually form the core of a contender (a critical quality distinction between them and your listing of our young players), that they started to try to compete.

It is the exact opposite of what the Bulls have done under AK and far, far from what Gar was doing. It is what we should have started doing two trade deadlines ago when our vets had value and the writing of non-contention was splashed all over the walls. Do not compare us to the Rockets. They did what you resist. They embraced it and it worked.

We have no young franchise players, and LESS than all of OUR OWN future draft picks. Let alone having a bunch of other teams' picks as well.

[drosestruts]

I always think it's interesting looking at the current Rockets team. They pretty much copied the AK/ME playbook, I just think they executed it better. They acquired young talent and then quickly added multiple veteran pieces. I just think their veteran talent fit the youth better.

I think you need to take a deeper look at what the Rockets did. This description is so superficial as to be misleading. The Rockets did exactly what you have strongly argued against the Bulls doing: They tanked and executed a classic rebuild. Then they added vet role players at the end of it, which is also a customary part of a true rebuild.

The Bulls never did that. Even in the years before AK, Gar was still trying to straddle the line between tanking and competing with vets which is why we kept ending up with #7 picks.

The Rockets did not. They executed a classic tank rebuild. A "classic tank" rebuild has several stages: (1) trade your vets to acquire youth and draft assets; (2) become very bad; (c) stay that way patiently while adding multiple high lottery players to your roster; (d) evaluate your roster and its development; (e) when you believe you have acquired the type of core young assets around which to build a contender, add vet leadership; and (f) start working your way up the standings.

In 2019-2020 the Rockets won 44 games. Morey left and they decided to rebuild, realizing the contention window had closed even though they could have remained "competitive." They traded Russell Westbrook to take on John Wall's horrible contract plus 2 first round picks. They also traded Harden for an even more valuable stockpile of draft assets: 3 firsts, 4 first round pick swaps, and a first from the Cavaliers (three team trade).

As a result of these trades the Rockets immediately went from a 44 win team with highly valued vets to a 17 win team with the worst record in the league. They then continued to intentionally suck miserably for two more years, finishing with 20 (worst in the NBA) and 22 wins (second worst in the NBA) respectively. It was only after they did these things which took 4 years of gutting and then losing, and only after they determined the type of youth acquired could actually form the core of a contender (a critical quality distinction between them and your listing of our young players), that they started to try to compete.

It is the exact opposite of what the Bulls have done under AK and far, far from what Gar was doing. It is what we should have started doing two trade deadlines ago when our vets had value and the writing of non-contention was splashed all over the walls. Do not compare us to the Rockets. They did what you resist. They embraced it and it worked.

We have no young franchise players, and LESS than all of OUR OWN future draft picks. Let alone having a bunch of other teams' picks as well.

and for all that tanking the best player they have is Alpern Sengun who was drafted 16th overall.

I don't view the collection Rockets young talent outside of Sengun:

Jalen Green
Jabari Smith Jr
Amen Thompson
Tari Eason
Reed Sheppard
Cam Whitemore

To be any better, if they even are, then our collection of:

Coby White
Matas Buzelis
Ayo Dosunmu
Patrick Williams
Josh Giddey
Jalen Smith
Dalen Terry
Julian Phillips
Talen Horton Tucker

I do think Ime's a better coach