Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[Vampirate]

He's shooting like rookie Ausar Thompson from top left. Even rookie Barnes is better than that. Cold streak.

I buy Barnes being 30% there, not under 15% lol.

I agree, yes. I'm not going to trust anything which is much under his career norms until we're past the ASB.

As for the 2nd bold, call it a hopeful sign, and that those off season videos showing off his shooting form means something lol.

We shall see. I shall continue to be skeptical, but that's as likely to be true as your optimism, so we shall see over time xD

Honestly, looking at his shooting splits i'm just in the mindset of in terms of Barnes scoring.

"Dude.......please, throw us a bone here. We're grasping at straws for optimism right now." XD

[tsherkin]

Honestly, looking at his shooting splits i'm just in the mindset of in terms of Barnes scoring.

"Dude.......please, throw us a bone here. We're grasping at straws for optimism right now." XD

I hear you, I'm just default to skepticism. And he hasn't really shown anything interesting as far as shooting development apart from 2 months of 3pt shooting last year, so I don't have a lot to work with. I would, however, absolutely love it if this is the season.

[Buff]

As much as I think he needs to improve on it, I don't fully agree. If you look at someone like Sabonis, he doesn't provide nearly as much of the defensive ability Barnes does. Don't forget, these contracts aren't only based on offence.

Unsure Barnes provided that much of the defensive ability. Because he double the other team and get some stats, instead of any good team that can defend straight one on one, like Anonoby defense?

Scottie isn't a man defender, he's a help defender, both different and both can be elite at their respective roles. Also OG is one of the best defenders in the entire league, so that's a pretty high bar to hold him up to.

Scottie is younger than both OG and Sabonis, while being much better on offence than OG and much better on defence than Sabonis. Hence the contract.

So yeah, Scottie sucks, everybody sucks, Tank for robot players, 2050;

[Ell Curry]

It's pretty clear that the Raptors don't want him playing center at all. Hopefully he gets that stretch 5 to play next to him soon.

I think they mean when it comes to crunch time. Surely these people don’t want Scottie to play small ball 5 full time? That would be pretty stupid.

Even Draymond never did that with GSW. But in important games it got used a lot more. I can see that being what we do going forward.

Yeah, let's say we somehow end up with Flagg and make the playoffs first year, we might well look like this in a first round matchup:

Poeltl 28 - Barnes 20
Barnes 16 - Mogbo 16 - Flagg 16
Flagg 20 - Barrett 24 - Agbaji 4
Dick 26 - Agbaji 22
Quickley 30 Walter 16

as a 9 man rotation, with Walter as the nominal backup PG but really he's just guarding PGs, hitting 3s and is the 3rd or 4th ballhandler after some combo of Barnes, Flagg and Barrett.

And some actual backup 5 and backup 1 are in the regular season rotation to keep Barnes from playing more than 8-10 minutes a night at center (Olynyk if he's healthy, Chomche if he is stunningly a rotation guy next year or Fernando or next year's Fernando, or the PDX 2nd rounder if it's an immediately playable 12-15 minutes a night backup center) and having someone bring the ball up (Mitchell or Shead presumably, the PDX pick or an MLE signing). But they probably drop out come playoff time unless a matchup demands it.

If we don't get Flagg, it might be tougher to play Barnes at the 5, at least by next year.

[Buff]

Honestly, looking at his shooting splits i'm just in the mindset of in terms of Barnes scoring.

"Dude.......please, throw us a bone here. We're grasping at straws for optimism right now." XD

I hear you, I'm just default to skepticism. And he hasn't really shown anything interesting as far as shooting development apart from 2 months of 3pt shooting last year, so I don't have a lot to work with. I would, however, absolutely love it if this is the season.

We're tanking coming from all the way up, why wouldn't Scottie tank as well while putting up all kinds of shots? His only meaningful playoff games he has been great unless the amazing stars we used to have. We are meant to lose and everybody expects everybody to be great and ALSO lose. Make up your minds people.

[tsherkin]

We're tanking coming from all the way up, why wouldn't Scottie tank as well while putting up all kinds of shots? His only meaningful playoff games he has been great unless the amazing stars we used to have. We are meant to lose and everybody expects everybody to be great and ALSO lose. Make up your minds people.

This is definitely the season for him to experiment. My issue is that I'd like to see him working on stuff in-game which he can't really do the same way in an empty gym. Above-break threes are above-break threes: you're typically unguarded, so he can shoot that running wind sprints from the opposite baseline and then taking a three.

Working on his handle and his pull-up against live defenses is another story, though, and he needs that a lot more than 5 crap 3s per game in terms of developmental experience.

He hasn't been back 10 games, so I'm not too worried about his specific percentages or any of that stuff. I've been encouraged by a few things I've seen, so for me, it's more discussion of what I'd like to see going forward. Like that Pistons game, I was happy with what he tried to do. It didn't work because he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with an artillery barrage in the second half, but he was getting to the right spots, looking for the right shots, handle looked better, etc. There were positives. What we need to see now is the development we haven't seen enough of from him in terms of his scoring.

[Dalek]

It's fine for now, but depending on our next roster moves, if we do replace Darko in the future, a coach who can get Scottie to buy into playing center as we run smallball makes a ton of sense.

I think this is a bit unfair to Scottie. OKC probably has the best roster to play small ball lineup in the because they arguably have the best peremiter defenders in the league outside of Boston.

We saw Scottie be the center of a top 10 defence in his rookie year, he can clearly do it but I just don’t think we have the defensive make up to do it at the moment.

It's pretty clear that the Raptors don't want him playing center at all. Hopefully he gets that stretch 5 to play next to him soon.

I feel like they are acquiescing to Scottie's demands because I don't see development on his jumpshot which kind of reduces his effectiveness as a handler outside the paint.

I do think the stretch five will help. We are seeing teams pack the paint or zone up to make us a jumpshooting team. This team needs size and shooting in a bad way.

[Ell Curry]

I do think the stretch five will help. We are seeing teams pack the paint or zone up to make us a jumpshooting team. This team needs size and shooting in a bad way.

Quickley for Mitchell is a massive upgrade in terms of spacing/shooting. It will hurt us on defence, though.

[Vampirate]

Honestly, looking at his shooting splits i'm just in the mindset of in terms of Barnes scoring.

"Dude.......please, throw us a bone here. We're grasping at straws for optimism right now." XD

I hear you, I'm just default to skepticism. And he hasn't really shown anything interesting as far as shooting development apart from 2 months of 3pt shooting last year, so I don't have a lot to work with. I would, however, absolutely love it if this is the season.

This is weird, he actually has a hotspot, it's just not the spot people think of (near the basket).

This is Barnes shooting for all seasons combined.



Why his shooting goes from 44.3% from mid range there to 28.1% further back is beyond me.

If you want to know where he's shooting in that 44.3% area this year it's 50%, just really odd.

[AbC?]

Scottie and FVV:

[Buff]

We're tanking coming from all the way up, why wouldn't Scottie tank as well while putting up all kinds of shots? His only meaningful playoff games he has been great unless the amazing stars we used to have. We are meant to lose and everybody expects everybody to be great and ALSO lose. Make up your minds people.

This is definitely the season for him to experiment. My issue is that I'd like to see him working on stuff in-game which he can't really do the same way in an empty gym. Above-break threes are above-break threes: you're typically unguarded, so he can shoot that running wind sprints from the opposite baseline and then taking a three.

Working on his handle and his pull-up against live defenses is another story, though, and he needs that a lot more than 5 crap 3s per game in terms of developmental experience.

He hasn't been back 10 games, so I'm not too worried about his specific percentages or any of that stuff. I've been encouraged by a few things I've seen, so for me, it's more discussion of what I'd like to see going forward. Like that Pistons game, I was happy with what he tried to do. It didn't work because he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with an artillery barrage in the second half, but he was getting to the right spots, looking for the right shots, handle looked better, etc. There were positives. What we need to see now is the development we haven't seen enough of from him in terms of his scoring.

Yeah you'll notice it is the first time with us he's jacking. I don't think he has changed like that and he's not playing for a contract. He came back and we started winning. It'd seem to me he got the memo. This is such a weird season I find it hard to extrapolate, post ASB he'll get injured *again* and it will be another lost year for the sake of the tank. Sight.

At his most productive he would be playing trying to win and doing what he does best and this season is not that, we could almost say he has already costs us a few "wins".

[tsherkin]

Yeah you'll notice it is the first time with us he's jacking. I don't think he has changed like that and he's not playing for a contract. He came back and we started winning. It'd seem to me he got the memo. This is such a weird season I find it hard to extrapolate, post ASB he'll get injured *again* and it will be another lost year for the sake of the tank. Sight.

At his most productive he would be playing trying to win and doing what he does best and this season is not that, we could almost say he has already costs us a few "wins".

I'm not really super concerned that he's taking 3s. What concerns me is that he's trading shots in the RA for 3s.

I hope he remains healthy for the sake of development.

[Scase]

Teams were begging Scottie to shoot when he had the ball ATB, as in when he was stationary. He wasn't taking pullups as he dribbled past half court. They are different situations. A defence will always rest easy when he goes 0-4, because he is a career 30% (at best) 3 point shooter. He's not going to make defences suddenly respect him because he continues to take bad 3pt shots that will continue to tank his averages. Ochai is starting to get respect with his overall 3%, but the only reason it's going up is because he is a legit threat from the corner. So even if he's ATB, defences will still think "Crap this guy is a really good shooter, I better close out" even if he sucks at ATB 3's.

Scottie isn't a good 3pt shooter from anywhere, he is below average to outright bad from every single spot behind the arc. So when a defence sees him already as a bad shooter, taking the hardest possible 3, they are going to continue to not respect him. He needs to start sinking 3's regularly, and again, taking the hardest shots possible is not how you do that.

Tatum is also a really bad example, he came into the league shooting 40% from 3, he's not going to shoot 37-40% every game, but he does it often enough to have earned that respect since his first season. Scottie hasn't done that in a single season to date.

I'm glad you agree with the walk before run idea, but you seem to be misunderstanding that those ATB pull ups are the running, C&S and set 3's are the walking aspect. Again, the issue is not him taking 3's, it's him taking the worst possible ones.

There's no doubt he's not known as a shooter, but I hope he can replicate last year again, because he was actually very good above the break last year in threes. (outside center left where he shot 25%)

If he has another year like that, the narrative changes.

Also.

You're being fooled by a cold streak in a certain area..

Barnes has never shot under 15% from 3 in any of the ranges in a season....ever. This season at the top right, he's shooting 14.3% from that area, last season he shot 38% from that same range.

Even in his sophomore year he shot 25% in that rea, rookie season 30%.

For various reasons, he's in a slump in that area. (btw last year in the 3 point center range he shot 37.8%).

In the dead center 3 point range he's shooting 21% this year...

His assist rate on his 3s is still around 90%, the bigger issue here is not where he's taking them, but the new degree of difficulty that he's added by taking more off them off dribble.

Again, 38% from that area last year, 14.3% in that area, this year.

I think you're overacting to a 2/12 game a bit, which is skewing the numbers.

There's also possibly a factor of rust/eye that's impacting him.

As for Ochai, he's 'strictly' a corner shooter, but a really good one.

I have very specifically stated he is not as good as last year or as bad as this year. But to suggest a guy throwing up shots he was never good at (SHOT TYPE, NOT LOCATION), is ok cause he shot well from that location last year?

Like are you at all reading what I am saying? I feel like I've said it like 4 times, the issue I have is the PULL UP 3, not WHERE he is shooting from.

[Vampirate]

Teams were begging Scottie to shoot when he had the ball ATB, as in when he was stationary. He wasn't taking pullups as he dribbled past half court. They are different situations. A defence will always rest easy when he goes 0-4, because he is a career 30% (at best) 3 point shooter. He's not going to make defences suddenly respect him because he continues to take bad 3pt shots that will continue to tank his averages. Ochai is starting to get respect with his overall 3%, but the only reason it's going up is because he is a legit threat from the corner. So even if he's ATB, defences will still think "Crap this guy is a really good shooter, I better close out" even if he sucks at ATB 3's.

Scottie isn't a good 3pt shooter from anywhere, he is below average to outright bad from every single spot behind the arc. So when a defence sees him already as a bad shooter, taking the hardest possible 3, they are going to continue to not respect him. He needs to start sinking 3's regularly, and again, taking the hardest shots possible is not how you do that.

Tatum is also a really bad example, he came into the league shooting 40% from 3, he's not going to shoot 37-40% every game, but he does it often enough to have earned that respect since his first season. Scottie hasn't done that in a single season to date.

I'm glad you agree with the walk before run idea, but you seem to be misunderstanding that those ATB pull ups are the running, C&S and set 3's are the walking aspect. Again, the issue is not him taking 3's, it's him taking the worst possible ones.

There's no doubt he's not known as a shooter, but I hope he can replicate last year again, because he was actually very good above the break last year in threes. (outside center left where he shot 25%)

If he has another year like that, the narrative changes.

Also.

You're being fooled by a cold streak in a certain area..

Barnes has never shot under 15% from 3 in any of the ranges in a season....ever. This season at the top right, he's shooting 14.3% from that area, last season he shot 38% from that same range.

Even in his sophomore year he shot 25% in that rea, rookie season 30%.

For various reasons, he's in a slump in that area. (btw last year in the 3 point center range he shot 37.8%).

In the dead center 3 point range he's shooting 21% this year...

His assist rate on his 3s is still around 90%, the bigger issue here is not where he's taking them, but the new degree of difficulty that he's added by taking more off them off dribble.

Again, 38% from that area last year, 14.3% in that area, this year.

I think you're overacting to a 2/12 game a bit, which is skewing the numbers.

There's also possibly a factor of rust/eye that's impacting him.

As for Ochai, he's 'strictly' a corner shooter, but a really good one.

I have very specifically stated he is not as good as last year or as bad as this year. But to suggest a guy throwing up shots he was never good at (SHOT TYPE, NOT LOCATION), is ok cause he shot well from that location last year?

Like are you at all reading what I am saying? I feel like I've said it like 4 times, the issue I have is the PULL UP 3, not WHERE he is shooting from.

HULK SMASH...nah i'm joking

He should definitely take 'some' pull up threes, maybe 1-2 a game?

How many has he been taking them overall compared to his set shots?

I scoreboard watch then check full highlights, so you might have a better idea.

[SocialistHipHop]

I think this is a bit unfair to Scottie. OKC probably has the best roster to play small ball lineup in the because they arguably have the best peremiter defenders in the league outside of Boston.

We saw Scottie be the center of a top 10 defence in his rookie year, he can clearly do it but I just don’t think we have the defensive make up to do it at the moment.

It's pretty clear that the Raptors don't want him playing center at all. Hopefully he gets that stretch 5 to play next to him soon.

I think they mean when it comes to crunch time. Surely these people don’t want Scottie to play small ball 5 full time? That would be pretty stupid.

A starting 5 who stretches the floor would need to be supported by a backup 5 who can bang with the Embiid's of the league, doesn't leave much minutes for Scottie at the 5 on most nights.

[Scase]

It's pretty clear that the Raptors don't want him playing center at all. Hopefully he gets that stretch 5 to play next to him soon.

I think they mean when it comes to crunch time. Surely these people don’t want Scottie to play small ball 5 full time? That would be pretty stupid.

A starting 5 who stretches the floor would need to be supported by a backup 5 who can bang with the Embiid's of the league, doesn't leave much minutes for Scottie at the 5 on most nights.

I think we can find a centre to play 4 games a year

There's no doubt he's not known as a shooter, but I hope he can replicate last year again, because he was actually very good above the break last year in threes. (outside center left where he shot 25%)

If he has another year like that, the narrative changes.

Also.

You're being fooled by a cold streak in a certain area..

Barnes has never shot under 15% from 3 in any of the ranges in a season....ever. This season at the top right, he's shooting 14.3% from that area, last season he shot 38% from that same range.

Even in his sophomore year he shot 25% in that rea, rookie season 30%.

For various reasons, he's in a slump in that area. (btw last year in the 3 point center range he shot 37.8%).

In the dead center 3 point range he's shooting 21% this year...

His assist rate on his 3s is still around 90%, the bigger issue here is not where he's taking them, but the new degree of difficulty that he's added by taking more off them off dribble.

Again, 38% from that area last year, 14.3% in that area, this year.

I think you're overacting to a 2/12 game a bit, which is skewing the numbers.

There's also possibly a factor of rust/eye that's impacting him.

As for Ochai, he's 'strictly' a corner shooter, but a really good one.

I have very specifically stated he is not as good as last year or as bad as this year. But to suggest a guy throwing up shots he was never good at (SHOT TYPE, NOT LOCATION), is ok cause he shot well from that location last year?

Like are you at all reading what I am saying? I feel like I've said it like 4 times, the issue I have is the PULL UP 3, not WHERE he is shooting from.

HULK SMASH...nah i'm joking

He should definitely take 'some' pull up threes, maybe 1-2 a game?

How many has he been taking them overall compared to his set shots?

I scoreboard watch then check full highlights, so you might have a better idea.

It's definitely not all of his 3's but it is probably half or more based on memory. I wouldn't mind him taking a couple a game for like a heat check or whatever. But it's like the first thing he does in the game, and then the second, and then the third lol.

He needs to establish his game and get into a groove before he starts jacking up low % shots. I don't mind the shots when they make sense, but they are the types of shot a guy takes when he's hit like 3 or more in a row.

[SocialistHipHop]

I think they mean when it comes to crunch time. Surely these people don’t want Scottie to play small ball 5 full time? That would be pretty stupid.

A starting 5 who stretches the floor would need to be supported by a backup 5 who can bang with the Embiid's of the league, doesn't leave much minutes for Scottie at the 5 on most nights.

I think we can find a centre to play 4 games a year

I have very specifically stated he is not as good as last year or as bad as this year. But to suggest a guy throwing up shots he was never good at (SHOT TYPE, NOT LOCATION), is ok cause he shot well from that location last year?

Like are you at all reading what I am saying? I feel like I've said it like 4 times, the issue I have is the PULL UP 3, not WHERE he is shooting from.

HULK SMASH...nah i'm joking

He should definitely take 'some' pull up threes, maybe 1-2 a game?

How many has he been taking them overall compared to his set shots?

I scoreboard watch then check full highlights, so you might have a better idea.

It's definitely not all of his 3's but it is probably half or more based on memory. I wouldn't mind him taking a couple a game for like a heat check or whatever. But it's like the first thing he does in the game, and then the second, and then the third lol.

He needs to establish his game and get into a groove before he starts jacking up low % shots. I don't mind the shots when they make sense, but they are the types of shot a guy takes when he's hit like 3 or more in a row.

I think my point is not what I would do with the roster, but rather that the FO is committed to having a traditional 5 and a stretch 5 on this roster. So with that being their strategy, I don't really see Scottie getting many minutes at the 5 over the long term.

[Scase]

A starting 5 who stretches the floor would need to be supported by a backup 5 who can bang with the Embiid's of the league, doesn't leave much minutes for Scottie at the 5 on most nights.

I think we can find a centre to play 4 games a year

HULK SMASH...nah i'm joking

He should definitely take 'some' pull up threes, maybe 1-2 a game?

How many has he been taking them overall compared to his set shots?

I scoreboard watch then check full highlights, so you might have a better idea.

It's definitely not all of his 3's but it is probably half or more based on memory. I wouldn't mind him taking a couple a game for like a heat check or whatever. But it's like the first thing he does in the game, and then the second, and then the third lol.

He needs to establish his game and get into a groove before he starts jacking up low % shots. I don't mind the shots when they make sense, but they are the types of shot a guy takes when he's hit like 3 or more in a row.

I think my point is not what I would do with the roster, but rather that the FO is committed to having a traditional 5 and a stretch 5 on this roster. So with that being their strategy, I don't really see Scottie getting many minutes at the 5 over the long term.

I agree on Scottie not being played at the 5, but I dont think the FO is trying that hard for a traditional/stretch five combo. KO isn't what I'd call a changing of the times

[SocialistHipHop]

I think we can find a centre to play 4 games a year


It's definitely not all of his 3's but it is probably half or more based on memory. I wouldn't mind him taking a couple a game for like a heat check or whatever. But it's like the first thing he does in the game, and then the second, and then the third lol.

He needs to establish his game and get into a groove before he starts jacking up low % shots. I don't mind the shots when they make sense, but they are the types of shot a guy takes when he's hit like 3 or more in a row.

I think my point is not what I would do with the roster, but rather that the FO is committed to having a traditional 5 and a stretch 5 on this roster. So with that being their strategy, I don't really see Scottie getting many minutes at the 5 over the long term.

I agree on Scottie not being played at the 5, but I dont think the FO is trying that hard for a traditional/stretch five combo. KO isn't what I'd call a changing of the times

I expect the plan is have KO stretch the floor, but we gotta wait to see it. Darko values a traditional big like Jak, and his offensive system would clearly need a stretch 5. So that's what I'm seeing, in terms of the long term strategy that the team has adopted. But no one can say for sure until we see how Darko runs the team with a healthy roster.

But Darko rarely plays Scottie at the 5, so I don't think folks should expect that to change.

[sidsid]

Honestly, looking at his shooting splits i'm just in the mindset of in terms of Barnes scoring.

"Dude.......please, throw us a bone here. We're grasping at straws for optimism right now." XD

I hear you, I'm just default to skepticism. And he hasn't really shown anything interesting as far as shooting development apart from 2 months of 3pt shooting last year, so I don't have a lot to work with. I would, however, absolutely love it if this is the season.

This is weird, he actually has a hotspot, it's just not the spot people think of (near the basket).

This is Barnes shooting for all seasons combined.



Why his shooting goes from 44.3% from mid range there to 28.1% further back is beyond me.

If you want to know where he's shooting in that 44.3% area this year it's 50%, just really odd.

That hotspot is his KG spot to setup. Once we have him screening/handing off/playmaking there and move Jak out of the way, everything below that spot will tick up in efficiency.

The 3 pt shooting right now is only relevant for his C&S spots. He's taking a bunch of pull-ups now but he's clearly not a pull-up shooter from range yet.