Moderators: Clav, Domejandro, ken6199, bisme37, Dirk, KingDavid, cupcakesnake, bwgood77, zimpy27, infinite11285
doogie_hauser wrote:Mike Brown prolly be fired before (or around) Christmas
Would like to see how Keegan performances under a new coach/voice of the Kings before making judgement (MB has probably taken the Kings as far as he can take them)
UcanUwill wrote:Hitman88 wrote:ORLMagicGirl15 wrote:Y’all have me ready to fight for this player and he’s not on my team.
Give him a minute. It’s the same thing people said about Franz 3 point shooting even though their first 2 years showed you that they can shoot.
Funny that Keegan is older than Franz and Franz had better shooting stats than Keegan. Plus he is always consistent in his International Play so there is always potential in his game even before.
In today's league, you need to be a 3D to be a solid starter, Keegan is missing the 3.
Franz can do so much more with the ball, he needed shooting to open up his game to real star status, Keagan right now needs shooting just so he would be good role player. Talent difference is definitely not on Keagan's side here.
cupcakesnake wrote:dballislife wrote:lol ya thats right blame keegan failing on other players lol...he hasn't added any skills to his game since day 1...he started out pretty good year one, and year 2 was exact same and now year 3 hes the exact same player
he cant dribble, cannot pass, and has no moves lol
he has good size and shoots the 3, we knew that since year 1 and hes literally that same player today
I feel 2 ways about it, and think it's a little more complicated than the scouting report you're giving here.
On one hand you're right, there are limitations to Keegan's game and we haven't seen skill development in an obvious sense. His fall off as a 3-point shooter has been pretty damaging, and he hasn't been a positive efficiency scorer without it. That 3-point shot gave him a nice basement as an offensive player, but now the basement has collapsed without him meaningfully adding to the ceiling.
However, Keegan showed some really interesting stuff working hand off action with Sabonis last year. He's a very aggressive driver who's big enough to finish in traffic (fairly elite at this actually). He has fantastic elevation on his jumper and can reliably counter on drives into a very solid pull up game. He's also a very sneaky, high-motor cutter, so he's a nice guy to pair with Sabonis (and to a lesser degree, Fox) who is always ready to throw interior passes.
The other thing that Keegan is very good at is posting mismatches. Mike Brown talked a lot last offseason about putting in a post up package for Keegan, but then the Demar trade happened and that guaranteed the end of that dream. In general, accommodating Demar's game requires Keegan to do a lot less. Demar needs those spots, and while Demar can do some playmaking, he's not adept at finding cutters in the interior. He's much more of a drive and kick playmaker, so Keegan's shooting woes are making the Keegan/Demar fit even worse. Can't blame Demar for Keegan's shakey outside shooting, but it's pretty straightforward why the Keegan drives are less efficient next to Demar. There's just way less room in this offense for Keegan's game to grow, so until further notice, he'll have to live and die by his 3-point looks.
Defensively, Demar makes his life a bit harder as well. They give him the defensive dirty work, and now there's a lot mroe dirty to work covering for another wing liability. Harrison Barnes was actually trash on defense last year, but the Kings still made him do stuff. With Demar it's more undertood he has to be hidden, which means Keegan guarding more shooting guards so Demar can be stashed. I think the defense has been super solid, but I'd prefer him to be able to play closer to the rim, where he's a very solid extra rim defender who can make Sabonis less damaging.
There are things Keegan will probably never do. Play-make off the dribble or be a high volume pick & roll creator. He's not that find of player, he's an off-ball cutter, secondary driver, spot up guy who can be a big matchup problem with his power forward size and strong ability to score at the rim off drives and post ups. He also never turns the ball over.
Hitman88 wrote:kg01 wrote:I see him as a poor man's John Collins.
Collins is a better Off-Ball Player and Spot Up Shooter
ConSarnit wrote:cupcakesnake wrote:dballislife wrote:lol ya thats right blame keegan failing on other players lol...he hasn't added any skills to his game since day 1...he started out pretty good year one, and year 2 was exact same and now year 3 hes the exact same player
he cant dribble, cannot pass, and has no moves lol
he has good size and shoots the 3, we knew that since year 1 and hes literally that same player today
I feel 2 ways about it, and think it's a little more complicated than the scouting report you're giving here.
On one hand you're right, there are limitations to Keegan's game and we haven't seen skill development in an obvious sense. His fall off as a 3-point shooter has been pretty damaging, and he hasn't been a positive efficiency scorer without it. That 3-point shot gave him a nice basement as an offensive player, but now the basement has collapsed without him meaningfully adding to the ceiling.
However, Keegan showed some really interesting stuff working hand off action with Sabonis last year. He's a very aggressive driver who's big enough to finish in traffic (fairly elite at this actually). He has fantastic elevation on his jumper and can reliably counter on drives into a very solid pull up game. He's also a very sneaky, high-motor cutter, so he's a nice guy to pair with Sabonis (and to a lesser degree, Fox) who is always ready to throw interior passes.
The other thing that Keegan is very good at is posting mismatches. Mike Brown talked a lot last offseason about putting in a post up package for Keegan, but then the Demar trade happened and that guaranteed the end of that dream. In general, accommodating Demar's game requires Keegan to do a lot less. Demar needs those spots, and while Demar can do some playmaking, he's not adept at finding cutters in the interior. He's much more of a drive and kick playmaker, so Keegan's shooting woes are making the Keegan/Demar fit even worse. Can't blame Demar for Keegan's shakey outside shooting, but it's pretty straightforward why the Keegan drives are less efficient next to Demar. There's just way less room in this offense for Keegan's game to grow, so until further notice, he'll have to live and die by his 3-point looks.
Defensively, Demar makes his life a bit harder as well. They give him the defensive dirty work, and now there's a lot mroe dirty to work covering for another wing liability. Harrison Barnes was actually trash on defense last year, but the Kings still made him do stuff. With Demar it's more undertood he has to be hidden, which means Keegan guarding more shooting guards so Demar can be stashed. I think the defense has been super solid, but I'd prefer him to be able to play closer to the rim, where he's a very solid extra rim defender who can make Sabonis less damaging.
There are things Keegan will probably never do. Play-make off the dribble or be a high volume pick & roll creator. He's not that find of player, he's an off-ball cutter, secondary driver, spot up guy who can be a big matchup problem with his power forward size and strong ability to score at the rim off drives and post ups. He also never turns the ball over.
The numbers do not bear this out at all. His drive volume is very low. Last year he shot well on drives but on really low volume. This year he’s upped his volume (still low) and he’s shooting 40% on drives. Murray drives at the same rate as other 3+D level players. Which is to say not very much at all.
ogmagicfan wrote:I never bought into the hype for him and thought he was overhyped
The improvement in defense last year was pleasant, but offensively I dont see the hype and his cold streaks from 3 while getting good looks is consistent
The Kings shouldve traded him for OG when they had the chance
Black Jack wrote:Is it me or does he always look a little overweight?
Feels like a guy who could be unlocked by committing to conditioning.
Edrees wrote:JRoy wrote:Monta Ellis have it all
I was hoping and expecting this to be one of the first replies. You did not disappoint. Jroy have it all.
cupcakesnake wrote:ConSarnit wrote:cupcakesnake wrote:
I feel 2 ways about it, and think it's a little more complicated than the scouting report you're giving here.
On one hand you're right, there are limitations to Keegan's game and we haven't seen skill development in an obvious sense. His fall off as a 3-point shooter has been pretty damaging, and he hasn't been a positive efficiency scorer without it. That 3-point shot gave him a nice basement as an offensive player, but now the basement has collapsed without him meaningfully adding to the ceiling.
However, Keegan showed some really interesting stuff working hand off action with Sabonis last year. He's a very aggressive driver who's big enough to finish in traffic (fairly elite at this actually). He has fantastic elevation on his jumper and can reliably counter on drives into a very solid pull up game. He's also a very sneaky, high-motor cutter, so he's a nice guy to pair with Sabonis (and to a lesser degree, Fox) who is always ready to throw interior passes.
The other thing that Keegan is very good at is posting mismatches. Mike Brown talked a lot last offseason about putting in a post up package for Keegan, but then the Demar trade happened and that guaranteed the end of that dream. In general, accommodating Demar's game requires Keegan to do a lot less. Demar needs those spots, and while Demar can do some playmaking, he's not adept at finding cutters in the interior. He's much more of a drive and kick playmaker, so Keegan's shooting woes are making the Keegan/Demar fit even worse. Can't blame Demar for Keegan's shakey outside shooting, but it's pretty straightforward why the Keegan drives are less efficient next to Demar. There's just way less room in this offense for Keegan's game to grow, so until further notice, he'll have to live and die by his 3-point looks.
Defensively, Demar makes his life a bit harder as well. They give him the defensive dirty work, and now there's a lot mroe dirty to work covering for another wing liability. Harrison Barnes was actually trash on defense last year, but the Kings still made him do stuff. With Demar it's more undertood he has to be hidden, which means Keegan guarding more shooting guards so Demar can be stashed. I think the defense has been super solid, but I'd prefer him to be able to play closer to the rim, where he's a very solid extra rim defender who can make Sabonis less damaging.
There are things Keegan will probably never do. Play-make off the dribble or be a high volume pick & roll creator. He's not that find of player, he's an off-ball cutter, secondary driver, spot up guy who can be a big matchup problem with his power forward size and strong ability to score at the rim off drives and post ups. He also never turns the ball over.
The numbers do not bear this out at all. His drive volume is very low. Last year he shot well on drives but on really low volume. This year he’s upped his volume (still low) and he’s shooting 40% on drives. Murray drives at the same rate as other 3+D level players. Which is to say not very much at all.
Not talking about his volume so much as his playstyle. When he comes off DHO action, he's very aggressive looking to get downhill and get into the paint. Obviously he's not a pick & roll ball handler, and I never said anything like: Keegan Murray drives more than other people do. I'm talking about what he looks like when he gets the opportunity to drive, which is not very often in Sacramento's offense. He's driving less this season, and less efficiently.
I think Murray fans were thinking that was one place his game was going to grow (along with the aforementioned post ups.)
dballislife wrote:i would trade murray, monk, and huerter for siakim in a heartbeat
sabonis, siakim, demar, ellis, fox with devin carter...its not an easy out in a playoff series
the exact same problem with jabari smith jr. with nice wing size and a 3 pointer, but cant really do much at all beyond
