RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[bledredwine]

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[The4thHorseman]

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[MavsDirk41]

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Nba players today will be called plumbers and firefighters from fans young fans 20 years from now….just wait and see

[Spates]

Jordan was invincible. LeBron was inevitable.

[dautjazz]

LeBron is empty stats at this point of his career

Lebron is turning 40 in a month, and he's in his 22nd season, which is tied with Vince Carter for the most seasons. MJ retired at age 40, and mind you, he didn't look anywhere near as good as Lebron does now when he retired, and Lebron has already played 468 more regular season games. Even Kareem and Malone who used to be considered the players with the best longevity, fall way short of what Lebron is doing at this point of his career. The Lakers are 11-7 in an extremely tough western conference, and Lebron is putting up 23ppg 8rpg 9apg while shooting. 599TS%, while being one of two best players on the team. How are these empty stats?

[Rust_Cohle]

LeBron is empty stats at this point of his career

Lebron is turning 40 in a month, and he's in his 22nd season, which is tied with Vince Carter for the most seasons. MJ retired at age 40, and mind you, he didn't look anywhere near as good as Lebron does now when he retired, and Lebron has already played 468 more regular season games. Even Kareem and Malone who used to be considered the players with the best longevity, fall way short of what Lebron is doing at this point of his career. The Lakers are 11-7 in an extremely tough western conference, and Lebron is putting up 23ppg 8rpg 9apg while shooting. 599TS%, while being one of two best players on the team. How are these empty stats?

He has the second worst +\- on the team (which can be a flawed stat) however the lakers offense and defensive rating goes up when he sits. This is an incredibly overrated season of lebron. He doesn’t move the needle at all anymore. They go as far as AD takes them. And like you said, he’s 40, I’m not even trying to grill lebron for that, but people keep saying “when is he going to slow down” when he understandably has for years along with career worst defense. That’s why I emphasized at this stage of his career. He was obviously incredible back in the day but Father Time gets everyone.

[dautjazz]

LeBron is empty stats at this point of his career

Lebron is turning 40 in a month, and he's in his 22nd season, which is tied with Vince Carter for the most seasons. MJ retired at age 40, and mind you, he didn't look anywhere near as good as Lebron does now when he retired, and Lebron has already played 468 more regular season games. Even Kareem and Malone who used to be considered the players with the best longevity, fall way short of what Lebron is doing at this point of his career. The Lakers are 11-7 in an extremely tough western conference, and Lebron is putting up 23ppg 8rpg 9apg while shooting. 599TS%, while being one of two best players on the team. How are these empty stats?

He has the second worst +\- on the team (which can be a flawed stat) however the lakers offense and defensive rating goes up when he sits. This is an incredibly overrated season of lebron. He doesn’t move the needle at all anymore. They go as far as AD takes them. And like you said, he’s 40, I’m not even trying to grill lebron for that, but people keep saying “when is he going to slow down” when he understandably has for years along with career worst defense. That’s why I emphasized at this stage of his career. He was obviously incredible back in the day but Father Time gets everyone.

Clearly father time is undefeated, and Lebron a month before 40 is clearly not in his prime, but he's fallen off less than anyone at this stage of their career. He's still performing at a very high level, so unless someone is making a case for him for MVP, I think he's being properly rated. He's for sure top 20 still, and when it comes to the playoffs, I'd have a hard time not putting him on my team if I could choose any 12 players. That team would look like this for me:

Jokic/AD
Giannis/Lebron
Tatum/Durant
Doncic/Brown/Edwards
Curry/SGA/Brunson

[Rust_Cohle]

Lebron is turning 40 in a month, and he's in his 22nd season, which is tied with Vince Carter for the most seasons. MJ retired at age 40, and mind you, he didn't look anywhere near as good as Lebron does now when he retired, and Lebron has already played 468 more regular season games. Even Kareem and Malone who used to be considered the players with the best longevity, fall way short of what Lebron is doing at this point of his career. The Lakers are 11-7 in an extremely tough western conference, and Lebron is putting up 23ppg 8rpg 9apg while shooting. 599TS%, while being one of two best players on the team. How are these empty stats?

He has the second worst +\- on the team (which can be a flawed stat) however the lakers offense and defensive rating goes up when he sits. This is an incredibly overrated season of lebron. He doesn’t move the needle at all anymore. They go as far as AD takes them. And like you said, he’s 40, I’m not even trying to grill lebron for that, but people keep saying “when is he going to slow down” when he understandably has for years along with career worst defense. That’s why I emphasized at this stage of his career. He was obviously incredible back in the day but Father Time gets everyone.

Clearly father time is undefeated, and Lebron a month before 40 is clearly not in his prime, but he's fallen off less than anyone at this stage of their career. He's still performing at a very high level, so unless someone is making a case for him for MVP, I think he's being properly rated. He's for sure top 20 still, and when it comes to the playoffs, I'd have a hard time not putting him on my team if I could choose any 12 players. That team would look like this for me:

Jokic/AD
Giannis/Lebron
Tatum/Durant
Doncic/Brown/Edwards
Curry/SGA/Brunson

Replace LeBron with wemby. He struggles mightily against +.500 teams, he doesn’t move the needle as much anymore

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=nba+player+efficiency+rating+leaders+2024-25

[Rust_Cohle]

double

[xchange55]

2. Jordan wasn't asked to stop scoring and focus on defense, shot blocking, passing the entire second half of his career. Wilt was, and, did. And, despite that, Jordan is still only 5 one hundreths of a point ahead of Wilt in all time PPG.

Wasn't asked to focus on defense - lol. He won DPOY. What other superstar high scoring guard has every won that or even come close to it?

[ty 4191]

2. Jordan wasn't asked to stop scoring and focus on defense, shot blocking, passing the entire second half of his career. Wilt was, and, did. And, despite that, Jordan is still only 5 one hundreths of a point ahead of Wilt in all time PPG.

Wasn't asked to focus on defense - lol. He won DPOY. What other superstar high scoring guard has every won that or even come close to it?

Considering it didn't even exist before 1983? DUH, dude. How many would Jerry West have won, as just one example? Cmon, bro. We're not all as historically illiterate as you- apparently- are.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10I5yzjC-m9ibgJZFhAZ5tFNIPNjTgkGTLHwumgZzctU/edit?gid=0#gid=0

[ty 4191]

2. Jordan wasn't asked to stop scoring and focus on defense, shot blocking, passing the entire second half of his career. Wilt was, and, did. And, despite that, Jordan is still only 5 one hundreths of a point ahead of Wilt in all time PPG.

Wasn't asked to focus on defense - lol. He won DPOY. What other superstar high scoring guard has every won that or even come close to it?

You're also missing the point. Wilt's defense was outstanding even while he was scoring 40 ppg for 7 years.

The question was, what if Wilt hadn't been asked (forced) to stop shooting/scoring? What if Jordan had been forced to stop shooting halfway through his career? How many ppg would HE have averaged? Wilt averaged 33 FGA/G his first 7 years and 12 per game his second 7 years, dude.

[bledredwine]

2. Jordan wasn't asked to stop scoring and focus on defense, shot blocking, passing the entire second half of his career. Wilt was, and, did. And, despite that, Jordan is still only 5 one hundreths of a point ahead of Wilt in all time PPG.

Wasn't asked to focus on defense - lol. He won DPOY. What other superstar high scoring guard has every won that or even come close to it?

You're also missing the point. Wilt's defense was outstanding even while he was scoring 40 ppg for 7 years.

The question was, what if Wilt hadn't been asked (forced) to stop shooting/scoring? What if Jordan had been forced to stop shooting halfway through his career? How many ppg would HE have averaged? Wilt averaged 33 FGA/G his first 7 years and 12 per game his second 7 years, dude.

Wilt’s 40 ppg was during the time of 33% more possessions. No combination of offense and defense has been more impressive than playoff Jordan. Unlike lebron, whose opponents often went off (exception- when he guards smaller guys like rose and steph), Jordan was shutting down the important players in key situations.

And clearly leading the league in all time playoff ppg at an efficient clip at that.

9 time 1st team defense is the most in history, also achieved by Garnett (I believe). Lebron? 5 times and that’s despite playing far more years in the league.

[EmpireFalls]

Jordan didn’t really guard the opponents best player.

[Rust_Cohle]

Jordan didn’t really guard the opponents best player.

Wrong, and he did a hell of a lot more often than lebron ever did:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/g95j2f/did_scottie_pippen_always_guard_the_other_teams/

[The4thHorseman]

If it's on Reddit then it MUST be true.

[bledredwine]

Jordan didn’t really guard the opponents best player.

I'd recommend watching him shut down Payton to clinch an important game,
looking into peak Drexler's stats as MJ guarded him nearly the entire time and the stats with Jordan guarding him
looked far worse than "other"

Or you can watch him shut down Majic Johnson himself in 91 during OT. Not sure where you got this idea.

[bledredwine]

If it's on Reddit then it MUST be true.

Valid articles and stats to learn about Jordan and recollect history from here http://nobodytouchesjordan.blogspot.com/2015/08/section-21-case-for-jordan-as-best.html

I think Jordan is the greatest perimeter defender of all-time. Many other players are also in the discussion - the main ones being Scottie Pippen, Gary Payton, and Dennis Rodman, but I think Jordan was superior to all of them as a perimeter defender.

Before we begin, it should be understood that stats such as DBPM, Drtg, and Dwin shares are not accurate for measuring individual defense. There are far more accurate ways to measure individual defense, which will be explored in this article especially with regards to Jordan's Wizard years before his knee injury.

In the playoffs, Charlie Ward is top 15 in Drtg over Kevin Garnett, and Greg Ostertag and Anderson Varejao are top 25 ahead of Dwight Howard, Kahwi Leonard, Dennis Rodman, Hakeem, Tony Allen, Mutombo, and more. DPBM is another irrelevant stat. In the playoffs, according to DBPM, Marcus Camby and Greg Ostertag are top 3 defenders of all time over Hakeem, David Robinson, Mutombo, Dwight Howard, Garnett, Duncan and many more players that they are not close to defensively.

As more proof of how useless these stats are for evaluating defense, Ron Artest never was top 10 in DBPM or Drtg in any of his seasons in the league, and only once was he top 10 in Dwin shares at 7th in 2003/04 during his DPOY season. This is despite the fact that Ron Artest is considered arguably the best perimeter defender of his era. Clearly these stats are not to be trusted at all when it comes to evaluating defense, since apparently Ron Artest was never a top 10 defender in the league according to these stats, with the exception of Dwin shares in 2003/04.

Anyways, here are the reasons why Jordan has a rock solid case as the best perimeter defender of all-time

1. Playoff Defense and 1-1 Matchups

There probably is not another perimeter player who took on as many tough matchups in the playoffs as Jordan did. There is a misconception that Pippen was the guy who always guarded the other team's best player in the playoffs, because of the famous story when Pippen switched on Magic in Game 2 of the Finals and did a great job. But in the very next game, Game 3 of the 1991 Finals, Pippen fouled out at the end of the 4th quarter and after Magic had lit up Jordan + Pippen through 4 quarters, Jordan shut down Magic to 0-0-0 with 1 turnover in the OT.

In fact, Jordan had an elite defensive performance in every single one of his NBA Finals, including that Game 3 against Magic.

1992 Finals - Drexler, a top 5 SG of all-time, had 25 ppg on a poor 40.7% FG in the 1992 Finals after 25 ppg on 47% in the regular season, and most of his points came in transition or on other defenders when Jordan was not guarding him. Jordan completely locked him down. Jordan also shut down Terry Porter, who averaged 21.6 PPG with 52% FG and 47% 3PT in the 1992 Playoffs. He is the only player to average at least 15 PPG on 50% FG and 45% 3PT in an NBA Finals run (min. 1.5 3PA/game).

1993 Finals, Game 3 - Kevin Johnson scored 23 points before Jordan guarded him with 7 minutes left in the 4th quarter. KJ had 2 points the rest of the game including the 3 overtimes. Kevin Johnson is one of 3 players in history (Oscar + Isiah) to average 20-10 for 3 straight years, and before running into Gary Payton in the 1993 WCF, KJ averaged 19.6 ppg and 9.4 apg on 53% in the 1993 Playoffs which was just short of his 20-10 mark.



Contrary to popular belief, Jordan would
taken on the tougher playoff matchups
than Pippen and did a better job
the majority of the time
1996 Finals - With Ron Harper's knee injury limiting him to 1 minute in both Games 3 and 5, Jordan shut down Gary Payton in both Game 3 and Game 5. Payton had averaged 22-5-7-2 on 50% through 3 rounds in the 1996 Playoffs, while sweeping the 2x defending champion Rockets and beating Stockton/Malone's Jazz.

1997 and 1998 Finals - Jordan did not guard Stockton for long periods of time, as this was past his defensive peak. Jordan's off-ball was huge, however, including the Flu game in which all 3 of Jordan's steals came off of Stockton's passes.

His on-ball on Stockton was also good the few times when he did guard Stockton, and his off-ball and help defense on Karl Malone was also key, including the championship winning steal and shot in Game 6 of the 1998 Finals

And these are only the examples of Jordan's defensive performances in the NBA Finals. Before the Bulls title years, Jordan also repeatedly shut down Isiah Thomas who shot 39 - 41% in all 4 playoff series against the Bulls (1988, 1989, 1990, 1991). Jordan also played great defense on former 2x scoring champ Adrian Dantley in the 1988 ECSF, who averaged 20 ppg on 51% in 31 mpg for the 87/88 season.

In the 1996 ECF, Pippen spent more time guarding Penny than Jordan did, but when Jordan did guard Penny, he did a better job. Penny only scored 1 total point with Jordan guarding him in the entire 1996 ECF.

Jordan also locked down these guys when he guarded them
Tim Hardaway (1996 1st Rd) - averaged 17-10 on 43% in 28 games with the 1996 Heat, and 25-10 on 46% for his playoff career prior to that series.
Rod Strickland (1997 1st Rd) - Strickland was an underrated player who averaged 17-19 ppg and 8-10 apg at his best, and even led the league in assists in 97/98.
Steve Smith (1997 ECSF) - averaged 20 ppg on 43% in 96/97
And in 1998, with the season on the line against Indiana in Game 7 of the 98 ECF, Jordan was the one who had to guard Reggie Miller in the 4th quarter. Reggie had 22 points on 7/12 (58%) FG through 3 quarters, then Jordan switched on him in the 4th and Reggie had 0 points and was only able to attempt 1 shot.

Here is an incomplete list of notable offensive matchups Jordan guarded in the playoffs


Adrian Dantley - 1988
Isiah Thomas - 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991
Charles Barkley - 1990 (brief stretches)
Magic Johnson - 1991
James Worthy - 1991 (brief stretches)
Clyde Drexler - 1992
Terry Porter - 1992
Kevin Johnson - 1993
Tim Hardaway - 1996
Penny Hardaway - 1996
Gary Payton - 1996
Rod Strickland - 1997
Steve Smith - 1997
Reggie Miller - 1998
John Stockton - 1997, 1998 (brief stretches)

In every NBA Finals, Jordan guarded a top 5 or top 10 all-time PG or SG
- Magic Johnson
- Clyde Drexler
- Kevin Johnson
- Gary Payton
- John Stockton

Rodman is a superior defender than Jordan overall and took on even tougher overall matchups than Jordan in the playoffs
Bird 1987, 1988
Magic 1988, 1989
Jordan + Pippen 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991
Drexler (briefly) 1995 WCF
Shaq 1996
Malone 1997 + 1998
But if we're talking strictly perimeter defense, Jordan was better. Rodman was better than Jordan as an overall defender because of his rebounding and arguably the best post-defense of all time along with Russell + Hakeem, and doing all that while also being a top-5 all-time perimeter defender at his best in his Pistons days.

But after leaving the Spurs in 1995, Rodman became exclusively a post-defender, and therefore putting him behind Jordan as a perimeter defender, because he didn't have to defend the perimeter for as long as Jordan did.


Rodman was a superior defender than
Jordan overall because of his post-defense
and rebounding, but if we are looking purely
at perimeter defense, Jordan has the edge.
After leaving San Antonio, Rodman had
no defensive responsibility on the perimeter.
Pippen is a top-5 perimeter defender, but contrary to popular belief (mostly based on Game 2 of the 1991 Finals) Jordan took on more difficult matchups at a higher rate than Pippen in the playoffs, and most of the time did a better job. Even though Pippen did a better job on Magic Johnson in Game 2 of the 1991 Finals, Jordan came right back the next game and shut down Magic across the board in OT (0-0-0 with 1 TO) after Pippen fouled out in the 4th quarter. And as mentioned in the Penny Hardaway example, Pippen guarded him more often, but Jordan did better in the stretches he switched on Penny.

Pippen was more versatile since he could guard 1-4, but versatility doesn't necessarily mean better defense. Anthony Mason was more versatile than Jordan and Payton since he could guard 2-5, but that doesn't automatically make him a superior defender. Versatility is only one aspect of defense, not the deciding factor.

Jordan finished ahead of Pippen in DPOY voting in
- 1988, 1989, 1990, 1993, 1998

Jordan tied with Pippen in DPOY voting in
- 1991 and 1992

Pippen finished ahead of Jordan in DPOY voting in
- 1996 and 1997

In their 9 seasons together
- MJ finished ahead of Pippen 5 times in DPOY voting
- Pippen and MJ tied 2 times in DPOY voting
- Pippen finished ahead of MJ 2 times in DPOY voting

Despite Jordan missing most of his 2nd year due to injury and taking 2 prime years off afterwards.

Jordan has more
- DPOY (1 to 0)
- Top 5 finishes in DPOY (7 to 5)
- Top 8 finishes in DPOY (10 to 8)
- Steals titles (3 to 1)
- All Defense 1st Team (9 to 8)

Jordan and Pippen tied for
- Top 2 finishes in DPOY (2)
- Top 3 finishes in DPOY (3)

Jordan has always been regarded as the better defender than Pippen for their overall careers. Only after their careers ended did revisionism start the myth that Pippen was the better defender and guarded top threats more often.

[DCasey91]

I have no dog in the fight. After watching the playoffs in particular

These are the things I'll say:

There's 3 distinct periods with Jordan

Pre 1990
91-93
96-98

Along with vastly different game styles.

His jumper got better as time went on. To the point of being a cerebral assassin in the midrange but he had so many ways to get it done.

Peerless to me between 88-93. Yes the Knicks caused trouble but every GOAT candidate has underperformed in one way or another

He took an improving undercurrent to the point of elite standard support (thinking basketball has the analysis which I wholeheartedly agree with) and made it an all time great one year after year. The most impressive thing to me is he backed it up year after year in the regular and went up in the playoffs to boot.

Some myths I would like to dispel

1. No Jordan isn't the greatest perimeter defender of all time. To me Pippen or Kawhi has a much better argument for that.

2. I see no evidence that he was a great 3 ball exponent. He was good when it mattered (mainly in rythm/C&S off ball) and that is all that is needed but from mechanics, sometimes huge inversion/collapsing of the kness inward, non stop motor, sometimes off shooting follow throughs (as he says himself with his hands), wayward kicking off the legs. I'm not surprised at all he averaged 29% in the regular if you take away the shortened line years (which basically doubled the 35% guys overnight)
Kawhi is always the perfect blueprint for this positional type of player imo. Way stronger base, better range mechanics, and better stability all around. Could Jordan improve it to the point where it it could have been? Absolutely. Did it happen? No.

3. Smaller things but to be discussed he did have a habit of jumping in close on a drive on passes which caused unnecessary difficulty when it didn't have to be.

4. He did gamble more early in his career defensively and toned it down later on. I will say simple stuff like an in and out 3 he did for some reason get lost on on more than one occasion.

5. Also some of his 30 or near 30 point games I was'nt overly impressed by offensively still had a large impact because of his all round ability all game.

I know 96 gets touted as the best ever but I actually think 91 Bulls to me is the outright best. Jordan at his peak and felt like the zenith of mastery in his own game and more potency via two way with the Grant/Pippen at their best or close to it. 91 Jordan is the damn GOAT if you want to pick a season.

I get the Bron following. And I understand when his jumper his hot you can be seduced as saying he's the GOAT because he's the only that can hold a candle to Jordan and yes when his jumper is hot my word does he have a case, I get his GOAT level floor raising.

I know my feelings prefer Bron today (perfected the shot diet and 36% from 3 going on 12 seasons now vs back then and with less spacing)

I get how crappy his first seven years were (people have left for a lot less, I don't agree with how it went down but that's history). But the simple matter is

His jumper wasn't always on. It's quite simple. It leads to some dud games and series. Though if you want something polarising I do find some of his his sub 30/30 point games sometimes to be more impressive than the one above.

I'm not surprised either he found his best success with 3 very distinct scorers. That's his outright best utilisation when he doesn't have to do friggin everything under the sun

Aside from the streaky jumper, Jordan had a better mentality, from the outside looking in I dunno James just "gave up" sometimes in a game or a series. Even when Jordan lost he always looked like he wanted to kill multiple people. His compeitiveness never dipped below 98 out of 100. He's the type of guy that would bury his own mother just to take an inch I'm not kidding on that. That's something innate, can also be a habitual behavioural change within harsh or extreme circumstance, But Jordan had that from day dot.

Also someone should have told James to stop jumping before going into your defensive stance it literally takes away all of his god given athleticism, why he did that? Zero idea.

Neither are perfect and deserve criticism imo when it fits the bill.

Finally food for thought. This is reality or our reality we share. In anther universe Lebron gets Paul George and Horford in the same timeline as Jordan got Grant and Pippen.

Then to me the answer isn't so simple.

[DCasey91]

Im of the opinion MJ shouldn't have been on Magic for the majority in the first place later on in the series. He was way more effective defensively when off him hunting on the outside/passing lanes and coming in quick with his blinding speed

Shutdown by himself in OT is a myth it was a tandem effort, Lakers point blank misses from great passes and a couple of egregious plays by him

Jordan literally pushed Magic in the back with both hands on the transition break.... No foul I kid you not

In actuality Jordan should not have been in the game because he picked up his 5th shortly there after

I know the statless count in OT

Jordan didn't actually neutralise Magic at all by himself he was fantastic for the most part. This was still the time Jordan had a bad habit of reaching causing defensive structural breakdowns

That is rose coloured glasses talking

Magic was just too big, and too GOATED of a passer to be effected that way (defensively I wish he was a more of a factor in his career but that's a different discussion altogether)

Stop BS, I'll call it out because its bullsh*t

This is the Jordan Mythos that needs to die. Because unless it does reasonable discussion can't hope to even be fair.

Watch on YouTube

From 1980 onwards all playoff games and series are out there for the world to see. The religious cult like behaviour is frankly embarrassing it actually greatly detracts from any point you're trying to make.