Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon

[AFM]

PIF is my favorite poster because he'll write a 4000 word essay on how you must have CTE brain damage for not knowing Brandon Clarke has a higher TS% than prime michael jordan and then the next day he'll have his memory erased in a bong cloud and will write something like above

[closg00]

PIF is right, chill guys

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Pif is my favorite because he's old enough to be my Dad, and I'm a couple years from being a senior citizen.

I treasure his wisdom. We're blessed.

[payitforward]

PIF is my favorite poster because he'll write a 4000 word essay on how you must have CTE brain damage for not knowing Brandon Clarke has a higher TS% than prime michael jordan and then the next day he'll have his memory erased in a bong cloud and will write something like above

"Above" -- that's the right word.

I appreciate your posts & cntousmart...'s posts as well. But I guarantee, 100%, that neither of you has had as many fist fights as I have had. & never will.

I grew up in a tough neighborhood of Chicago -- Uptown. Fights were common, & in my case I was also on the receiving end of some anti-Semitism I didn't like. Led to fights.

I found out early that nearly everyone will just bull rush you. Very very few will ball their fist & throw a hard punch at someone's face. I was one of those few. & the guy that's bull rushing you is walking straight into it.

My last fist fight occurred when I was about a month from turning 48. But, I'm sure no one wants to hear the story, right?

[closg00]

Pif is my favorite because he's old enough to be my Dad, and I'm a couple years from being a senior citizen.

I treasure his wisdom. We're blessed.

I thought PIF was joking about his age

[JAR69]

PIF is my favorite poster because he'll write a 4000 word essay on how you must have CTE brain damage for not knowing Brandon Clarke has a higher TS% than prime michael jordan and then the next day he'll have his memory erased in a bong cloud and will write something like above

"Above" -- that's the right word.

I appreciate your posts & cntousmart...'s posts as well. But I guarantee, 100%, that neither of you has had as many fist fights as I have had. & never will.

I grew up in a tough neighborhood of Chicago -- Uptown. Fights were common, & in my case I was also on the receiving end of some anti-Semitism I didn't like. Led to fights.

I found out early that nearly everyone will just bull rush you. Very very few will ball their fist & throw a hard punch at someone's face. I was one of those few. & the guy that's bull rushing you is walking straight into it.

My last fist fight occurred when I was about a month from turning 48. But, I'm sure no one wants to hear the story, right?

Yet another moment when I love this board.

Hell, yeah, I want to hear the story!

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Pif is my favorite because he's old enough to be my Dad, and I'm a couple years from being a senior citizen.

I treasure his wisdom. We're blessed.

I thought PIF was joking about his age

Nope.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

EDITED.

I punched a guy not long ago.. It was necessary. It was quite effective.

[doclinkin]

PIF is my favorite poster because he'll write a 4000 word essay on how you must have CTE brain damage for not knowing Brandon Clarke has a higher TS% than prime michael jordan and then the next day he'll have his memory erased in a bong cloud and will write something like above

"Above" -- that's the right word.

I appreciate your posts & cntousmart...'s posts as well. But I guarantee, 100%, that neither of you has had as many fist fights as I have had. & never will.

I grew up in a tough neighborhood of Chicago -- Uptown. Fights were common, & in my case I was also on the receiving end of some anti-Semitism I didn't like. Led to fights.

I found out early that nearly everyone will just bull rush you. Very very few will ball their fist & throw a hard punch at someone's face. I was one of those few. & the guy that's bull rushing you is walking straight into it.

My last fist fight occurred when I was about a month from turning 48. But, I'm sure no one wants to hear the story, right?

Bumped the 'True' Story thread for this...

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=859591&p=115824559#p115824559

[doclinkin]

Pif is my favorite because he's old enough to be my Dad, and I'm a couple years from being a senior citizen.

I treasure his wisdom. We're blessed.

I thought PIF was joking about his age

Nope.

LOL he was born the same year as my mom. And I'm over fitty. I love that we can grow older and never quite grow up or grow wise...

(... or at least wise enough to stop watching the Wizards).

[TGW]

Getting back to Deni, to answer you question AFM...it's not Deni's dreamy eyes and rugged beard that make people like him. It's the fact that he represents playing the right way. Ball movement, defense, rebounding, high effort, high activity...he's the type of player who reinforces good culture. On top of that, he was improving offensively, he was dirt cheap, and still very young. When you have your teams of newly drafted youngins getting their cues from the likes of Poole and Kuzma, who represent forced, selfish basketball, it's very difficult to unteach what they've seen. Now Poole and Kuzma might be great off the court...maybe...but on the court they are bad. And it seems that the front office seriously overvalues Poole/Kuzma for some reason, and that's where I'm cautious. They lost Tyus and Deni, and I'm betting Jonas and Brogdon are gone by years end, but I'm willing to bet that Kuzma and Poole will be here into next season.

[The Consiglieri]

I was definitely 100% against it, but I have to admit I've been really, really pleasantly surprised by Bub, and if he continues to develop, there's a quite reasonable chance it ends up being a push, more for scouting than good process (in my view, the trade, on its face, was weak, but landing Bub will probably make it a push or better pending how the other assets play out).

[GoneShammGone]

Look, I love Deni's dreamy eyebrows as much as the next guy, but I really don't understand why its so hard for people to accept that this was a reasonably smart move---no matter how well Deni does in Portland.

I mean, seriously, it sucks. We had a nice, young, talented kid on the team with upside and a value contract. He was fun to root for because he worked hard. Losing him sucks from a fan's day to day perspective. But Dawkins's job is not to look at the day to day perspective! Its to try and rebuild this team. Its going to take years. How long was Philly in "the process"? Four full seasons. By the time we are good again, Deni will be a free agent (or at least expiring). So what good would his excellent play over that time period be for us? None. Actually, it would likely be a drag on our fortunes in so much as it would lead to more wins in the next couple years. Somebody was willing to give us a solid FRP for him. Where the Wizards sit, you had to make that deal. Its a calculated risk, but no matter how well Deni plays over the next four seasons, its still the right call.

[AFM]

Getting back to Deni, to answer you question AFM...it's not Deni's dreamy eyes and rugged beard that make people like him. It's the fact that he represents playing the right way. Ball movement, defense, rebounding, high effort, high activity...he's the type of player who reinforces good culture. On top of that, he was improving offensively, he was dirt cheap, and still very young. When you have your teams of newly drafted youngins getting their cues from the likes of Poole and Kuzma, who represent forced, selfish basketball, it's very difficult to unteach what they've seen. Now Poole and Kuzma might be great off the court...maybe...but on the court they are bad. And it seems that the front office seriously overvalues Poole/Kuzma for some reason, and that's where I'm cautious. They lost Tyus and Deni, and I'm betting Jonas and Brogdon are gone by years end, but I'm willing to bet that Kuzma and Poole will be here into next season.

Yeah but he played the right way right into a 15 win season. We're talking about an 11 & 6 player like he's some sort of franchise talent instead of the 5th best player on a good team.

[payitforward]

AFM nails it -- given where this franchise was when Will became GM, there was absolutely nothing & no one who had a necessary part in our future. We were taking it down to the studs, & any/all future assets were (still are) more valuable than existing assets.

If you add the obvious fact that Malcolm Brogdon is & always has been far superior to Deni as a player, the whole thing was & is a no-brainer.

Time to put a lid on it.

[dckingsfan]

They lost Tyus and Deni, and I'm betting Jonas and Brogdon are gone by years end, but I'm willing to bet that Kuzma and Poole will be here into next season.

Well, that is the rub to me. Keeping Kuzma and even getting Poole in the first place... sigh.

There will be a lot of silly (yeah, but how do you know they could even trade Kuzma). Or handwaving of Poole was worth the gamble.

Now, if they get another first for Brogdan & a couple of seconds for Jonas - well then - different story.

But maybe that was the plan all along. Keep Poole and Kuzma through the end of their contracts to get good picks in '25, '26 & '27. Maybe they value crappy players for their tank!

Either way, easy to not watch the games right now, so there is that - saves a bunch of time.

[DCZards]

I mean, seriously, it sucks. We had a nice, young, talented kid on the team with upside and a value contract. He was fun to root for because he worked hard. Losing him sucks from a fan's day to day perspective. But Dawkins's job is not to look at the day to day perspective! Its to try and rebuild this team.

GoneShammGone dropping dimes and crossing people over.

[doclinkin]

But maybe that was the plan all along. Keep Poole and Kuzma through the end of their contracts to get good picks in '25, '26 & '27. Maybe they value crappy players for their tank!

This is not to be overstated. Ultimately there is nothing more valuable to the team than landing a franchise player in either this year or next year's draft. Inefficient minutes from guys like Kuzma and Poole ultimately help the team, more than their bad example hurts it.

The 90% rule means you gotta pay somebody. We could divvy that up to a variety of solid role players and build a decent team with it. But decent teams just keep you on the treadmill. A guy like Deni Avdija is the best damned roleplayer any team could land for the price he is being paid. (A price this front office inked him to, a smart deal). We could build a team out of similar stellar role players. And we would never win a championship.

Yeah it sucks to lose by double digits every game. Okay you don't want the rooks to get disheartened or play lazy, learn bad habits or get used to losing. But without all-stars this team is not going to win much anyway. We need every chance to land star players. The only chances you get for 'free' are draft picks. This FO uses those assets to bolster their scouting. Both in extra picks and spending picks for movement on draft day. We traded up for Bilal, traded up for Kyshawn. Landed Bub while also landing a handful of other picks. That doesn't help us today, but long suffering fans do look at those picks as buried gold. Especially if our scouting and development process looks good.

I think that is where we get dissonance between the fans who are now okay with the trade and those still in mourning for the loss. The question of whether Deni was a replaceable asset or not. Or if we did in fact replace him. Us cockeyed optimists will point to the stats and achievements of rookie Bub, and compare with the stats of rookie Deni, and say hey I think we might have done it. IF Bub grows over his rookie contract and breaks out the way Deni did last year, then we straight up stole Bub in this draft. A one-for-one swap plus additional assets. Yeah TODAY he won't be as good as Deni. But we are looking for the long term.

Deni broke out under this front office's developmental plan. How often have we had good talents here that didn't improve? Sure Deni might be our only developmental success story up to now, so naturally many fans wanted to hold on to that. But will he be our last success story? Will other players improve and break out? Or was Deni's sudden improvement fostered by this organization? Do they get any credit for his leap.

The signs are hopeful that this franchise can become one that does nurture growth. Bilal has shown signs of significant improvement. Players like George and Sarr are looking better than they did in summer league. They have a plan and it does seem smart.

This front office will be judged long term on if they recruit good talents and if those talents reach their best potential. Really though it all hinges on whether we can land the absolute best talents in the draft. Especially in the next 2 years. Kuzma and Poole are irrelevant. They are placeholders. They fill up the top end of the salary list while we continue to suck. Yes they are untradeable for that reason. They are expensive and don't help the team win. But that IS the plan. Because ultimately this front office only 'wins' if they get a franchise player in this draft and/or the next. Judge them on if we draft top 5 both years. Because if they do, and if scouts are right, there's a chance we aren't drafting that high for years after that.

We are riding out the last of the LeBJ/Stef dynasties. We have not yet seen the Wemby ascendence. We are in a no man's land between eras. And adjusting to a radically new CBA that punishes dynasty teams. Gathering draft picks and losing for a bit seems like the smartest move for a team that wants to win and refresh their roster every year with cheap incoming talent.

Picture the young talents we have on the team right now. Then picture them next to the top 1-3 talents in this next draft. Watch those highlights and daydream. And look at highlights of the kids in the draft following that. Recall that Deni was one of those 16 year old professional players that teams were tracking, that scouts knew would break out. Now picture who Bub and George and Sarr could be at the end of their rookie deals. If they develop like Deni did. IF their highlight reels can string together to consistent performances every night. If they each were giving they same production in their roles as Deni did for us last year. AND now envision that, even at that level of production, they were still the 3rd-5th best players on the team.

Is that a team that would be fun cheering for? Two all stars and three Avdijas in the starting line-up. No guarantee, but that is the team we are trying to grow from scratch. Losing Deni is the scratch.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

Getting back to Deni, to answer you question AFM...it's not Deni's dreamy eyes and rugged beard that make people like him. It's the fact that he represents playing the right way. Ball movement, defense, rebounding, high effort, high activity...he's the type of player who reinforces good culture. On top of that, he was improving offensively, he was dirt cheap, and still very young. When you have your teams of newly drafted youngins getting their cues from the likes of Poole and Kuzma, who represent forced, selfish basketball, it's very difficult to unteach what they've seen. Now Poole and Kuzma might be great off the court...maybe...but on the court they are bad. And it seems that the front office seriously overvalues Poole/Kuzma for some reason, and that's where I'm cautious. They lost Tyus and Deni, and I'm betting Jonas and Brogdon are gone by years end, but I'm willing to bet that Kuzma and Poole will be here into next season.

Yeah but he played the right way right into a 15 win season. We're talking about an 11 & 6 player like he's some sort of franchise talent instead of the 5th best player on a good team.

Yeah his fault...

On-off numbers for players playing significant minutes on WAS last year as follows:

-Avdija: +6.9
-Kispert: -3.4
-Coulibaly: -4.4
-Kuzma: -4.7
-Poole: -5.4
-Jones: -6.1

So yeah, +10.3 over the next nearest guy.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

Look, I love Deni's dreamy eyebrows as much as the next guy, but I really don't understand why its so hard for people to accept that this was a reasonably smart move---no matter how well Deni does in Portland.

I mean, seriously, it sucks. We had a nice, young, talented kid on the team with upside and a value contract. He was fun to root for because he worked hard. Losing him sucks from a fan's day to day perspective. But Dawkins's job is not to look at the day to day perspective! Its to try and rebuild this team. Its going to take years. How long was Philly in "the process"? Four full seasons. By the time we are good again, Deni will be a free agent (or at least expiring). So what good would his excellent play over that time period be for us? None. Actually, it would likely be a drag on our fortunes in so much as it would lead to more wins in the next couple years. Somebody was willing to give us a solid FRP for him. Where the Wizards sit, you had to make that deal. Its a calculated risk, but no matter how well Deni plays over the next four seasons, its still the right call.

Ha. So both now (1) it doesn't matter how well Deni ever plays because it was a swing and that's all that matter and (2) the only plausible outcome is that he'd be a free agent/expiring at the end of his new contract at age 27? Whatever I get it, just turning into scenario after scenario where Dawkins could have not have done wrong according to the acolytes.

Also, maybe when advocating for a long-term tear down you use a better example than "The Process" because that one has been an complete disaster given the time horizon. Fultz, Simmons, and always injured Embiid whose disappearing act has led to a grand total of mediocre playoff success culminating to what, 2 second round playoff runs? Oh yeah letting Jimmy Butler walk... shrewd...