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Identity crisis?

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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#481 » by winforlose » Sat Nov 23, 2024 8:31 pm

younggunsmn wrote:
Loaf_of_bread wrote:
Klomp wrote:This probably fits better here:

It feels like we are stuck in the middle between two identities. We are trying to infuse more offense, while at the same time trying to hold onto that defensive identity that helped bring us to the Western Conference Finals. I'm honestly not sure we can do both, I think before long we will have to choose one or the other.

It's especially interesting because the two young cornerstones Edwards and McDaniels can lean either way.

But largely, the rest of the team is divided between the two identities.
Defense, Halfcourt: Gobert, Conley, Alexander-Walker, Ingles, Dozier
Offense, Tempo: Randle, Reid, Dillingham, DiVincenzo, Miller, Shannon, Garza

Honestly, I'm kind of at the point where I would not oppose dropping Gobert's minutes to only play with Conley. In the other minutes, just fly around and push tempo with the young guys! I doubt it happens, but I wouldn't mind. I think the problems really stand out the more we try to mix the two identities together.


Success last year surprised everyone. Our defensive prowess and length was the reason for it.

Suggesting limiting Rudy's time on the court just may be the worst take I can think one could make.

The problem with this team is freaking Julius randle thinking he has to get his buckets. Dude watches stat lines all game...if he is at 6 points midway into the 2nd quarter he knows he isn't on pace with his 20 whatever points, and will press the issue instead of letting the game come to him/playing smart bb. Lazy, lazy, lazy defender.

We would be playing better bb if the guy was injured.

Guy doesn't box out/horrible rebounder.

Plays as if he's 6'3"


Rudy Gobert has basically refused to come off of his man to play help defense in the paint all season long, and when he does he still does not effect the shot 8 times out of 10.
He spent the whole Toronto game not a single arm length away from Poeltl because for all his accolades he still can't figure out how to play both the ballhandler and the pass with like a 10 foot wingspan.
When your entire scheme is centered around one guy altering shots and protecting the rim, and that guy is not doing his job, you might as well call it a season.

Julius Randle sucks. I get it. But so does Rudy this year, and when he's on the court our two best offensive players, whose primary strengths are attacking the basket, are facing a clogged paint 100% of the time.

Your 30+ minute guys HAVE to be 2 way players to win in this league. That's just the way it is.
You can live with one guy who isnt super skilled offensively as long as he's efficient (and aware of his limitations).
Maybe one of those guys on the court at any time.
You CAN"T live with someone who is a sieve defensively.

We finally got KAT to the point where he was acceptable defensively, after years of trying.
First when we changed to a high wall scheme, and again when we put him at the 4 next to a rim protecting big.

All that work to make our plus plus offensive guy a neutral defender, and then TC just had to go blow it up and start over trying to pet project a VASTLY worse defender.


I once again refer you to the howls and growls video I posted above. Our defense is **** without Rudy. You can say that is just because he is a big body. But, I think the more plausible answer is that Rudy does in fact have an impact, and the scheme/team is failing him, rather than the other way around. Dane Moore talked about this in his pod, and was 100% correct when pointing out that Rudy was leaving the paint to do scheme work against Toronto, and nobody rotated to cover the paint. They make him look bad, which combined with all the hate he gets makes Rudy mad. Then they shut him out of the offense (for better or worse,) and his offensive numbers go down too. It doesn’t help that the 3 best guys at passing to Rudy last year were Karl, (traded) Kyle (sign and traded,) and Mike (37 years old and a shell of what he was last year.) Rudy is being made to look really bad and it is detrimental to his mental health and the teams chemistry/performance.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#482 » by Loaf_of_bread » Sat Nov 23, 2024 8:34 pm

younggunsmn wrote:
Loaf_of_bread wrote:
Klomp wrote:This probably fits better here:

It feels like we are stuck in the middle between two identities. We are trying to infuse more offense, while at the same time trying to hold onto that defensive identity that helped bring us to the Western Conference Finals. I'm honestly not sure we can do both, I think before long we will have to choose one or the other.

It's especially interesting because the two young cornerstones Edwards and McDaniels can lean either way.

But largely, the rest of the team is divided between the two identities.
Defense, Halfcourt: Gobert, Conley, Alexander-Walker, Ingles, Dozier
Offense, Tempo: Randle, Reid, Dillingham, DiVincenzo, Miller, Shannon, Garza

Honestly, I'm kind of at the point where I would not oppose dropping Gobert's minutes to only play with Conley. In the other minutes, just fly around and push tempo with the young guys! I doubt it happens, but I wouldn't mind. I think the problems really stand out the more we try to mix the two identities together.


Success last year surprised everyone. Our defensive prowess and length was the reason for it.

Suggesting limiting Rudy's time on the court just may be the worst take I can think one could make.

The problem with this team is freaking Julius randle thinking he has to get his buckets. Dude watches stat lines all game...if he is at 6 points midway into the 2nd quarter he knows he isn't on pace with his 20 whatever points, and will press the issue instead of letting the game come to him/playing smart bb. Lazy, lazy, lazy defender.

We would be playing better bb if the guy was injured.

Guy doesn't box out/horrible rebounder.

Plays as if he's 6'3"


Rudy Gobert has basically refused to come off of his man to play help defense in the paint all season long, and when he does he still does not effect the shot 8 times out of 10.
He spent the whole Toronto game not a single arm length away from Poeltl because for all his accolades he still can't figure out how to play both the ballhandler and the pass with like a 10 foot wingspan.
When your entire scheme is centered around one guy altering shots and protecting the rim, and that guy is not doing his job, you might as well call it a season.

Julius Randle sucks. I get it. But so does Rudy this year, and when he's on the court our two best offensive players, whose primary strengths are attacking the basket, are facing a clogged paint 100% of the time.

Your 30+ minute guys HAVE to be 2 way players to win in this league. That's just the way it is.
You can live with one guy who isnt super skilled offensively as long as he's efficient (and aware of his limitations).
Maybe one of those guys on the court at any time.
You CAN"T live with someone who is a sieve defensively.

We finally got KAT to the point where he was acceptable defensively, after years of trying.
First when we changed to a high wall scheme, and again when we put him at the 4 next to a rim protecting big.

All that work to make our plus plus offensive guy a neutral defender, and then TC just had to go blow it up and start over trying to pet project a VASTLY worse defender.

Rudy has the best on court/off court numbers of all of our starters, again not quite sure how anyone suggesting him being the problem makes any sense.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#483 » by Guest84 » Sat Nov 23, 2024 10:06 pm

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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#484 » by Loaf_of_bread » Sat Nov 23, 2024 11:31 pm

Guest84 wrote:https://youtu.be/3ceU3Fl5nss?si=Mm9UIWbfY5Krh3gL


Meh... go get your 25 points, lose every other game.. and have these interviews... on a rebuilding team..
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#485 » by Loaf_of_bread » Sun Nov 24, 2024 3:15 am

younggunsmn wrote:Just a slightly outside the box thought, we could trade Randle or make him fake an injury, slide Jaden to PF, and start DDV at the 3.
It might not work against some teams, but Jaden is worlds better as a help defender in the paint than Julius, and the paint is where we have been getting killed all season.

I've been calling for this. Jaden is best as a pf imo.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#486 » by minimus » Sun Nov 24, 2024 7:18 am

Loaf_of_bread wrote:
younggunsmn wrote:Just a slightly outside the box thought, we could trade Randle or make him fake an injury, slide Jaden to PF, and start DDV at the 3.
It might not work against some teams, but Jaden is worlds better as a help defender in the paint than Julius, and the paint is where we have been getting killed all season.

I've been calling for this. Jaden is best as a pf imo.

In this case we need a full size 6'7-6'9, 200-230lbs SF, such as Minott, but who can actually hit open threes.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#487 » by FrenchMinnyFan » Sun Nov 24, 2024 7:48 am

Wondering if Mike slow down is due to father age or just the way we play?
On one hand, he is getting older but he is still leading in Assist and more important in steals. You don't steal ball if you are not able to make great defense and read well the game.

After looking a few replay, i went to the conclusion that his slump is due to the lack of time he get the ball in hands. As long as Randle, DDV don't share the ball well, it will be a problem. ANT is also keeping it too long sometimes but he is able to create his own offense. Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#488 » by Klomp » Mon Nov 25, 2024 3:53 pm

minimus wrote:
Klomp wrote:This probably fits better here:

It feels like we are stuck in the middle between two identities. We are trying to infuse more offense, while at the same time trying to hold onto that defensive identity that helped bring us to the Western Conference Finals. I'm honestly not sure we can do both, I think before long we will have to choose one or the other.

It's especially interesting because the two young cornerstones Edwards and McDaniels can lean either way.

But largely, the rest of the team is divided between the two identities.
Defense, Halfcourt: Gobert, Conley, Alexander-Walker, Ingles, Dozier
Offense, Tempo: Randle, Reid, Dillingham, DiVincenzo, Miller, Shannon, Garza

Honestly, I'm kind of at the point where I would not oppose dropping Gobert's minutes to only play with Conley. In the other minutes, just fly around and push tempo with the young guys! I doubt it happens, but I wouldn't mind. I think the problems really stand out the more we try to mix the two identities together.


It might sound strange, but I truly believe Gobert can benefit from playing up-tempo offense. He was part of such offense in UTA and he has showed signs of being capable to move the ball this year as passer. I also believe that part of our new offense is high 3PA rate, which is not sustainable without Gobert screens

I probably came on too strong with the "drop Gobert's minutes to only play with Conley" line. It was definitely a hot-headed, reactionary take, and I usually pride myself on being better than that.

Obviously, Gobert can play well in an uptempo scheme. Your last paragraph is 100% accurate. I think my post was a reaction to the split personality of the team as a whole struggling at times to switch back and forth between schemes, so my knee-jerk idea was to have two distinct groups play two distinct styles. That way, everyone would know their roles and no confusion about schemes would exist.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#489 » by minimus » Mon Nov 25, 2024 6:23 pm

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McDaniels should be more in involved in offense by moving without the ball, setting screens, passing the ball. Otherwise opponent will use this BOS tactic
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#490 » by minimus » Wed Nov 27, 2024 8:44 am

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Well, I believe it is not a solution of our problems both in offense and defense. Let me explain, first let just admit that our offense without a lead ballhandler will fall into ISO ball trap leaded by Edwards and Randle. As result, you can see ALL players who plays off-ball basketball struggling mightily: DDV, Gobert, McDaniels, NAW. Moving Reid to three wont change anything. He was playing good at SF, because our combination of size with Gobert, Towns and Anderson in MIN was too much for opponent, and it covered a lot of issues in offense and defense. They dont have this luxury now. Losing ALL ballhandlers at the same time put Finch in very difficult situation: no Conley (injury), no Anderson, no Towns, no McLaughlin, no Morris. Our best inbounder is Ingles, our best ballhandler is 19yo Rob Dillingham. So lack of ballhandlers is again a head of snake, aka major problem right now.

Another problem is backup С-PF position, where Randle and Reid give up a lot of rebounds and open rim opportunities. Should addressed via trade.

Finally, BOS game exposed McDaniels problems at hitting ATB threes (30% so far). BOS implemented whole defensive strategy based on this. And this has been an issue this season.

Read on Twitter


So far we saw Finch making following adjustments: NAW as starting PG, DDV as starting PG and more minutes to Rob. I think that there is nothing much left for our coaching staff, next move should be a Randle trade. I'd suggest trading Randle to make room for experiments. Otherwise MIN are stuck in the middle.

If we trade Randle I could see MIN going in this direction:

First, going small around Gobert. So instead of moving Reid at SF, either move McDaniels at PF (at least agains small ball opponents) or move Reid at starting PF. Also I think Finch should use McDaniels as NON shooting big (something that Dane Moore suggests in his podcast). It is something that we have seen a good offense do this season. I think that Jaden has length and mobility to be a passing hub.



Second, if MIN are going small (relative to Gobert/Towns/Reid/Anderson frontcourt) and move McDaniels to PF, they absolutely MUST add a wing who can shoot and switch in defense at least to defend PF-SF-SG. Cameron Johnson is a great example of such player. Unfortunately, Minott who can provide some defense and rebounding is a bad fit with McDaniels who struggles to hit open threes, but I can Minott+Johnson duo works in defense like DFS+Johnson duo works in Brooklyn.

Finally, if MIN trade Randle, Finch should absolutely give Julius possession as ballhandler to Dillingham. They simply dont have another guy who can break opponent defense. There will be some growing pain in defense, but Rob at least gives effort, so it makes sense. At this point I'd define this experiment this way: give time to guys, who give effort in defense and move the ball in offense. I'd even suggest bringing here Nix for a few games and give him clear assignments: like protect Rob in defense, rebound, fight for 50/50 balls, move the ball.

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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#491 » by Guest84 » Wed Nov 27, 2024 6:23 pm

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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#492 » by RazorC » Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:44 pm

For the first time in a while, I don’t even care if I catch the game and have zero interest in attending any in person this year now. Before the KAT trade, we planned to attend at least 6 games this year. Actually one of the hardest Wolves teams to even root for. Feels like we went from building and building and finally got into contention to instantly facing another tear down and rebuild. Had we gotten something to be excited about back for KAT, I would’ve been alright with it but injecting Randle into that mix has gone just as I expected…or even worse because Divencenzo isn’t as good as I thought he was.pairing a second main scorer with Ant who doesn’t like to pass or play defense or rebound made zero sense. Sure hope they trade Randle and get sometime that fits better but not many great options. This team as is is going nowhere good.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#493 » by minimus » Fri Nov 29, 2024 9:02 am

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So these two things are related:

First, we have the most explosive trio in NBA. Second, we have TWO players from top-11 lowest scoring players in STARTING lineup. It explains our situation: we have the most unbalanced roster in NBA.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#494 » by minimus » Mon Dec 2, 2024 7:26 pm



It looks like CLE example is the best case scenario for MIN development path: they have two bigs who dont stretch the floor but our mobile enough to play in modern NBA and they have two elite ballhandlers who can create their own shot. I think MIN can follow same path:

Allen - Gobert
Mobley - McDaniels
Mitchell - Edwards
Garland - Dillingham
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#495 » by Guest84 » Mon Dec 2, 2024 8:30 pm

minimus wrote:

It looks like CLE example is the best case scenario for MIN development path: they have two bigs who dont stretch the floor but our mobile enough to play in modern NBA and they have two elite ballhandlers who can create their own shot. I think MIN can follow same path:

Allen - Gobert
Mobley - McDaniels
Mitchell - Edwards
Garland - Dillingham


This would be a stretch to me. Rudy isn't mobile and Jaden def isn't a big...not even a little bit. Can he switch onto some, sure but he's not a 4 full time. This team needs an overhaul...or a retooling I guess you could say.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#496 » by TimberKat » Mon Dec 2, 2024 8:37 pm

minimus wrote:

It looks like CLE example is the best case scenario for MIN development path: they have two bigs who dont stretch the floor but our mobile enough to play in modern NBA and they have two elite ballhandlers who can create their own shot. I think MIN can follow same path:

Allen - Gobert
Mobley - McDaniels
Mitchell - Edwards
Garland - Dillingham

Agree, I follow Cavs a lot too. Last year their offense was not working well under Brickerstaff but turned it around under new coach this year. Right now, they have more talent than Wolves, a star that plays very similar to Ant but is a more willing passer, and better team defense. So, if players and coaches are willing, Wolves can still work.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#497 » by minimus » Mon Dec 2, 2024 9:14 pm

Guest84 wrote:
minimus wrote:

It looks like CLE example is the best case scenario for MIN development path: they have two bigs who dont stretch the floor but our mobile enough to play in modern NBA and they have two elite ballhandlers who can create their own shot. I think MIN can follow same path:

Allen - Gobert
Mobley - McDaniels
Mitchell - Edwards
Garland - Dillingham


This would be a stretch to me. Rudy isn't mobile and Jaden def isn't a big...not even a little bit. Can he switch onto some, sure but he's not a 4 full time. This team needs an overhaul...or a retooling I guess you could say.


Sure, it is a bit stretch. Although Rudy is quite mobile for 7'1" guy, same for 6'9" McDaniels. But the biggest difference is 20lbs between current Garland and current Dillingham.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#498 » by Klomp » Mon Dec 2, 2024 9:21 pm

minimus wrote:But the biggest difference is 20lbs between current Garland and current Dillingham.

The difference is also 5 years. We talk about some of these guys as finished products, when in fact they are really not close to that. Ant gets compared to Michael Jordan, but the MJ that on 6 titles in 8 years.....not the one who didn't win a playoff series until his fourth season and didn't win his first championship until his seventh season.
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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#499 » by Klomp » Tue Dec 3, 2024 4:41 am

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Re: Identity crisis? 

Post#500 » by minimus » Tue Dec 3, 2024 8:49 am

Klomp wrote:
minimus wrote:But the biggest difference is 20lbs between current Garland and current Dillingham.

The difference is also 5 years. We talk about some of these guys as finished products, when in fact they are really not close to that. Ant gets compared to Michael Jordan, but the MJ that on 6 titles in 8 years.....not the one who didn't win a playoff series until his fourth season and didn't win his first championship until his seventh season.


Yes, agree. I also think that success is not always linear. DM had success in UTA at around same age as Edwards, but after that he had first two mediocre seasons in CLE. Garland spent first four season battling through injuries and improving his defense and his skills. This year CLE have a new coach, but also they finally can "run free".

P.S. It looks like Gobert-Reid-NAW-DDV-Conley is our best lineup so far. It drives me crazy, that MIN have so much talent, yet fail play consistently

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