Wolves/Jazz/Pels

[winforlose]

This trade has not been trade machined yet. It is a rough framework that requires more parts to be figured out.

Wolves out: Julius Randle
Wolves in: John Collins, Walker Kessler

Pels out: Zion Williamson
Pels in: Julius Randle

Jazz out: John Collins, Walker Kessler
Jazz in: Zion Williamson

Why for the Wolves. You turn Randle into two bigs. You use Kessler as the young C to join the Edwards timeline while giving him plenty of time to be mentored by Rudy and hopefully develop his offensive bag while he is at it. Collins can play backup PF and let’s Naz start. Naz will do better with more minutes and can also play the 3 with Collins and Rudy or Collins and Walker.

Why for the Pels. Julius Randle is a weak return for Zion, but Zion’s injury issues and weight issues hurt his return a lot. Zion is the next Ben Simmons type risk and we saw how well that turned out. I doubt any team is rushing to give what Pels fans expect is fair value for a healthy Zion. At the end of the day the best ability is availability, and Zion cannot even pretend to guarantee availability in the regular season or playoffs. Zion is not a franchise cornerstone and will not get value like one. Meanwhile Randle is much less injury prone, a solid offensive contributor, and can fill the PF role vacated by Zion.

Why for the Jazz. This move is high risk. Put simply Zion could suck, or be hurt, or not make his weight, or all of the above. That said, John Collins isn’t a world beater, and Walker Kessler is a backup C in the modern NBA at this point. If the Jazz are going to take a high risk player they would ideally do it for low cost and high potential for reward. Markkanen and Zion are a great fit for inside outside, and when paired with a 3rd star could put the Jazz back on track to compete instead of compete for better picks. Zion is only 24, and fits well with the young core that Utah is building. Also, if Zion does get back on track, and doesn’t fit into Utah’s long term plans, he can be flipped in a year or two for a lot more value in than went out to acquire him.

This is a sell low on Zion for the Pels. That said, the Pels are almost at the point (if not there already,) where selling for anything is better than having Zion around. Maybe Pels fans say **** no, we would sooner keep Zion and roll the dice. If so, fair enough. But for a guy who has 3 seasons of less than 30 games played in his first 6 years, who just started this season hurt, and has yet to play in a single playoff game, I think the ship has sailed on salvaging him in NO.

[Domejandro]

Giving how deep of a hole the New Orleans Pelicans are in, they are better off just tanking this season and continuing to gamble on Zion Williamson's upside (or trading him in the off-season).

[Texas Chuck]

I can't see the Pels doing this, but obviously they just cut out the Wolves, right? Take players they control for 2 years versus one. And Kessler potentially gives them a long-term piece.

[psman2]

I think NO just sticks it out with Zion, the upside is just still too high. Randle is just not a needle mover. Zion's contract has outs so not a lot of risk to continue to gamble on him.

[Daddy 801]

As a Jazz fan and if I was the GM I would pass. I’d give up draft capital for Zion, but I’d rather keep Kessler than get Zion who is always injured and is paid a ton.

Maybe include another team and Utah gets back draft capital?

Also, the Jazz have no incentive to help the wolves turn their season around. Anything short of Ant coming back to Utah is reason to avoid helping Minnesota. Only thing I can think that Minnesota could do to sweeten this deal if they really wanted was to take the protections off the future pick Utah owns from Minnesota. Maybe that would be enough to entice Danny. Probably not though.

Clearly a healthy Zion is worth more than I am giving him credit for. But I just don’t trust he will ever be healthy again. Which is why I wouldn’t trade Kessler for him. I’d trade a combination of Collins and Clarkson who aren’t in our long term plans and a small amount of draft capital to take the risk. But Kessler is too important to the Jazz. Not saying others should value Kessler the way I do, but a “proven” young player is what the Jazz need. If Zion didn’t get healthy this would set the Jazz back even farther.

[Daddy 801]

Giving how deep of a hole the New Orleans Pelicans are in, they are better off just tanking this season and continuing to gamble on Zion Williamson's upside (or trading him in the off-season).

If they own their own picks this is what I would do. Trade Ingram to the Spurs and Zion to
Houston. They seem like the two best spots for each of those players IMO.

As a Jazz fan I clearly don’t want them to, but it’s the smart move at this point of the season. If they can make a move to get as much draft capital this season and next they would be sitting in a good spot which Houston and the Spurs can facilitate.

[babyjax13]

I'd be down to make an offer for Zion, but I don't think it would be in New Orleans' best interests to take what I think would be the right value - which is several picks, but none high upside.

[jazzfan1971]

I can't imaging NO being willing to sell this low.

Then again I couldn't imaging the Clippers letting PG go for nothing.

[wemby]

Yeah, no matter how underwhelming Zion has been, there's no way they ship him for an expiring Randle who has almost as many (different) questions. But I'd definitely look to part ways with Zion though, just not with this deal in mind.

[Jon1798]

Why for Pels: Randle is a weak return for Zion

Gotta love the trade board

[winforlose]

As a Jazz fan and if I was the GM I would pass. I’d give up draft capital for Zion, but I’d rather keep Kessler than get Zion who is always injured and is paid a ton.

Maybe include another team and Utah gets back draft capital?

Also, the Jazz have no incentive to help the wolves turn their season around. Anything short of Ant coming back to Utah is reason to avoid helping Minnesota. Only thing I can think that Minnesota could do to sweeten this deal if they really wanted was to take the protections off the future pick Utah owns from Minnesota. Maybe that would be enough to entice Danny. Probably not though.

Clearly a healthy Zion is worth more than I am giving him credit for. But I just don’t trust he will ever be healthy again. Which is why I wouldn’t trade Kessler for him. I’d trade a combination of Collins and Clarkson who aren’t in our long term plans and a small amount of draft capital to take the risk. But Kessler is too important to the Jazz. Not saying others should value Kessler the way I do, but a “proven” young player is what the Jazz need. If Zion didn’t get healthy this would set the Jazz back even farther.

The only I thing I disagree with is your incentive post. If you truly believe that John Collins and Walker Kessler are the missing pieces that will save Minnesota, then you are 100% correct. That said, I don’t see how you get there. Kessler is a project, and Collins is not exactly world beating. I would be more inclined to get Randle off of Minnesota for fear he does start to play defense and figure out the offense and helps Minnesota do better in the next few years.

To everyone else, I agree. This is a very low sell on Zion, and the season is already pretty far off the rails. The only reason I suggested it is because whoever takes Zion is doing so with the hope they can fix him. A healthy Zion and Markkanen plus another high draft pick and some of the young guys they are developing is interesting. I don’t think the Pels just cut out the Wolves because Randle is better than the package coming to MN, it just happens to fit us better than Randle. Either way, I don’t see the Pels doing it. That is why the trade was more bare bones needing pieces to make it make sense. Thanks for the good feedback

[drchaos]

If Zion's value is this low the Nets have some assets the Pels would want.

An injured Zion wouldn't hurt us in our race for the Flagg.

[winforlose]

Why for Pels: Randle is a weak return for Zion

Gotta love the trade board

Harden for Simmons was a cautionary tale for the NBA. Zion feels like the next Ben Simmons. It is so HIGH RISK that only a team like Utah would do it. A team that is looking to add talent for low cost and risk paying a high salary to player who cannot remain available. Most teams won’t give a good or even decent return for Zion. Zion has played less than 30 games in 3 of his 6 seasons (1 of which he didn’t play any.) Last season was his healthiest and he still missed the playoffs. This year he is out for I don’t know how long, and I have no idea how he looks when he gets back. If you think Randle is too little I respect that, (I honestly do,) I just wonder what you think is both better and realistic?

Edit to add: Forgot to post this in the original post will do it here since it compliments my point. It is an article that says Zion is not close to coming back and has chronic hamstring issues.

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/10145711-zion-williamson-rumors-injury-return-not-close-amid-extended-pelicans-absence.amp.html

[shrink]

Why for Pels: Randle is a weak return for Zion

Gotta love the trade board

I agree, but c’mon - if you have to remove half a sentence apart to try to make your case, that’s sketchy.

Why for the Pels. Julius Randle is a weak return for Zion, but Zion’s injury issues and weight issues hurt his return a lot.

[Daddy 801]

As a Jazz fan and if I was the GM I would pass. I’d give up draft capital for Zion, but I’d rather keep Kessler than get Zion who is always injured and is paid a ton.

Maybe include another team and Utah gets back draft capital?

Also, the Jazz have no incentive to help the wolves turn their season around. Anything short of Ant coming back to Utah is reason to avoid helping Minnesota. Only thing I can think that Minnesota could do to sweeten this deal if they really wanted was to take the protections off the future pick Utah owns from Minnesota. Maybe that would be enough to entice Danny. Probably not though.

Clearly a healthy Zion is worth more than I am giving him credit for. But I just don’t trust he will ever be healthy again. Which is why I wouldn’t trade Kessler for him. I’d trade a combination of Collins and Clarkson who aren’t in our long term plans and a small amount of draft capital to take the risk. But Kessler is too important to the Jazz. Not saying others should value Kessler the way I do, but a “proven” young player is what the Jazz need. If Zion didn’t get healthy this would set the Jazz back even farther.

The only I thing I disagree with is your incentive post. If you truly believe that John Collins and Walker Kessler are the missing pieces that will save Minnesota, then you are 100% correct. That said, I don’t see how you get there. Kessler is a project, and Collins is not exactly world beating. I would be more inclined to get Randle off of Minnesota for fear he does start to play defense and figure out the offense and helps Minnesota do better in the next few years.

To everyone else, I agree. This is a very low sell on Zion, and the season is already pretty far off the rails. The only reason I suggested it is because whoever takes Zion is doing so with the hope they can fix him. A healthy Zion and Markkanen plus another high draft pick and some of the young guys they are developing is interesting. I don’t think the Pels just cut out the Wolves because Randle is better than the package coming to MN, it just happens to fit us better than Randle. Either way, I don’t see the Pels doing it. That is why the trade was more bare bones needing pieces to make it make sense. Thanks for the good feedback

I don’t see Kessler as a project. He is more valuable to the Jazz than what people are offering. He’s playing good this season and clearly could be on the team for years to come. Lauri and Kessler are the only two pieces I don’t have any desire to trade. And it’s going to take a lot more than people have suggested to get Kessler (assuming I am the GM).

I don’t care if Collins, Clarkson, Sexton, or Kessler for that matter will help Minnesota. My point is Utah has no incentive to help Minnesota if they aren’t giving Utah value. The easiest value they can give is taking the restrictions off the future pick we own. It’s up to Minnesota to gauge if they think the players coming in will help. But they are making this trade to hopefully be better so if I am Ainge I demand value or no trade. Hopefully if a trade happens it makes them worse as far as I am concerned. But it’s not up to the Jazz GM to decide for Minnesota if it will be a success or not. It’s up the Jazz GM to get value and protect their assets. And Minnesota wanting Jazz players would prove they think it’s of value to get them. So it’s up to Ainge to get something for them if a trade happens.

I’m just not trading away Kessler for Zion, potentially making the Wolves better (makes our pick this year worse), all for the hope Zion can stop being constantly injured. Way too risky for the potential reward. Rather stay the course, trade Collins, Clarkson, and maybe Sexton for picks that can be consolidated for a star later down the road without the injury history Zion has. I could be wrong. Maybe Zion comes back full health and has a hall of fame career. I just don’t think that’s gonna happen and it would set back the Jazz even farther if he doesn’t return to form.

Just my opinion. But it’s a pass. Willing to trade for Zion if Kessler doesn’t go. Even willing to give up a little draft capital. Just not parting with Kessler. And if a deal has the potential to help Minnesota I want those protections removed.

[winforlose]

As a Jazz fan and if I was the GM I would pass. I’d give up draft capital for Zion, but I’d rather keep Kessler than get Zion who is always injured and is paid a ton.

Maybe include another team and Utah gets back draft capital?

Also, the Jazz have no incentive to help the wolves turn their season around. Anything short of Ant coming back to Utah is reason to avoid helping Minnesota. Only thing I can think that Minnesota could do to sweeten this deal if they really wanted was to take the protections off the future pick Utah owns from Minnesota. Maybe that would be enough to entice Danny. Probably not though.

Clearly a healthy Zion is worth more than I am giving him credit for. But I just don’t trust he will ever be healthy again. Which is why I wouldn’t trade Kessler for him. I’d trade a combination of Collins and Clarkson who aren’t in our long term plans and a small amount of draft capital to take the risk. But Kessler is too important to the Jazz. Not saying others should value Kessler the way I do, but a “proven” young player is what the Jazz need. If Zion didn’t get healthy this would set the Jazz back even farther.

The only I thing I disagree with is your incentive post. If you truly believe that John Collins and Walker Kessler are the missing pieces that will save Minnesota, then you are 100% correct. That said, I don’t see how you get there. Kessler is a project, and Collins is not exactly world beating. I would be more inclined to get Randle off of Minnesota for fear he does start to play defense and figure out the offense and helps Minnesota do better in the next few years.

To everyone else, I agree. This is a very low sell on Zion, and the season is already pretty far off the rails. The only reason I suggested it is because whoever takes Zion is doing so with the hope they can fix him. A healthy Zion and Markkanen plus another high draft pick and some of the young guys they are developing is interesting. I don’t think the Pels just cut out the Wolves because Randle is better than the package coming to MN, it just happens to fit us better than Randle. Either way, I don’t see the Pels doing it. That is why the trade was more bare bones needing pieces to make it make sense. Thanks for the good feedback

I don’t see Kessler as a project. He is more valuable to the Jazz than what people are offering. He’s playing good this season and clearly could be on the team for years to come. Lauri and Kessler are the only two pieces I don’t have any desire to trade. And it’s going to take a lot more than people have suggested to get Kessler (assuming I am the GM).

I don’t care if Collins, Clarkson, Sexton, or Kessler for that matter will help Minnesota. My point is Utah has no incentive to help Minnesota if they aren’t giving Utah value. The easiest value they can give is taking the restrictions off the future pick we own. It’s up to Minnesota to gauge if they think the players coming in will help. But they are making this trade to hopefully be better so if I am Ainge I demand value or no trade. Hopefully if a trade happens it makes them worse as far as I am concerned. But it’s not up to the Jazz GM to decide for Minnesota if it will be a success or not. It’s up the Jazz GM to get value and protect their assets. And Minnesota wanting Jazz players would prove they think it’s of value to get them. So it’s up to Ainge to get something for them if a trade happens.

I’m just not trading away Kessler for Zion, potentially making the Wolves better (makes our pick this year worse), all for the hope Zion can stop being constantly injured. Way too risky for the potential reward. Rather stay the course, trade Collins, Clarkson, and maybe Sexton for picks that can be consolidated for a star later down the road without the injury history Zion has. I could be wrong. Maybe Zion comes back full health and has a hall of fame career. I just don’t think that’s gonna happen and it would set back the Jazz even farther if he doesn’t return to form.

Just my opinion. But it’s a pass. Willing to trade for Zion if Kessler doesn’t go. Even willing to give up a little draft capital. Just not parting with Kessler. And if a deal has the potential to help Minnesota I want those protections removed.

I hear you and this take is valid. I said from the jump that for Utah it is a low risk high reward because Markkanen and a healthy Zion would pair great together. The counter argument (which you made well above) is that Kessler and Collins (in this case Kessler, but in reality it is the pair,) is more valuable than Zion. I think this is a FAIR argument and I won’t fight you on the point. I do disagree with this notion that if the Wolves do any further business with Utah (even as a third team,) that the Wolves must contribute extra value to Utah. Utah can make us worse by doing a deal they think is bad for us, (which this one might be.) Plus, relationships in the NBA matter. Ainge might improve your pick by on or two spots by not dealing with us, but he might make it worse by those same spots by us getting a better deal somewhere else. Imposing this kind of tax on teams who owe you picks is not as black and white as you think.

[Skybox]

Love it for MIN but the other two should either cut them out or just walk away. Randle’s something of a hot potato at this point. MIN really screwed the pooch on that one…get ready for Gobert’s rapid decline and Ant’s trade request in February. You really notice the Minnesota winter when your team is contending team is crumbling.

[winforlose]

Love it for MIN but the other two should either cut them out or just walk away. Randle’s something of a hot potato at this point. MIN really screwed the pooch on that one…get ready for Gobert’s rapid decline and Ant’s trade request in February. You really notice the Minnesota winter when your team is contending team is crumbling.

Okay. Or Rudy doesn’t decline rapidly as his game doesn’t require that extra quickness that is usually needed for guards. Also, maybe Randle does improve, or simply leaves and one of our young guys (we have 5 in Minott, Dillingham, Shannon, Clark, and Miller,) turns into a rotation worthy player and fills in those minutes. We have Naz who can easily replace Randle at the PF and are deeper than you think. This post is a possible outcome, but not necessarily the most likely. Also Ant asking out this year is highly unlikely.

[Skybox]

Love it for MIN but the other two should either cut them out or just walk away. Randle’s something of a hot potato at this point. MIN really screwed the pooch on that one…get ready for Gobert’s rapid decline and Ant’s trade request in February. You really notice the Minnesota winter when your team is contending team is crumbling.

Okay. Or Rudy doesn’t decline rapidly as his game doesn’t require that extra quickness that is usually needed for guards. Also, maybe Randle does improve, or simply leaves and one of our young guys (we have 5 in Minott, Dillingham, Shannon, Clark, and Miller,) turns into a rotation worthy player and fills in those minutes. We have Naz who can easily replace Randle at the PF and are deeper than you think. This post is a possible outcome, but not necessarily the most likely. Also Ant asking out this year is highly unlikely.

I didn’t say it was most likely…but it’s a real possibility. Rudy can’t do this forever and defense is what made them so good…it’s a shame. Last year was so good.

[winforlose]

Love it for MIN but the other two should either cut them out or just walk away. Randle’s something of a hot potato at this point. MIN really screwed the pooch on that one…get ready for Gobert’s rapid decline and Ant’s trade request in February. You really notice the Minnesota winter when your team is contending team is crumbling.

Okay. Or Rudy doesn’t decline rapidly as his game doesn’t require that extra quickness that is usually needed for guards. Also, maybe Randle does improve, or simply leaves and one of our young guys (we have 5 in Minott, Dillingham, Shannon, Clark, and Miller,) turns into a rotation worthy player and fills in those minutes. We have Naz who can easily replace Randle at the PF and are deeper than you think. This post is a possible outcome, but not necessarily the most likely. Also Ant asking out this year is highly unlikely.

I didn’t say it was most likely…but it’s a real possibility. Rudy can’t do this forever and defense is what made them so good…it’s a shame. Last year was so good.

Look at the on off numbers for Rudy this season, he still is. Plus your posts timeline confuses me. Is Rudy declining this year, next year, or some later year in your hypothetical? If it is this year, shouldn’t it show through 20 games? If not then why is Ant asking out by February? Especially when he is saying publicly that our struggles are on him and the numbers reflect it? This post genuinely reads more like fan fiction than a cohesive argument.

P.S, most of the Wolves players are under 27. Ant, MCD, Naz, NAW, DDV, Dilly, Shannon, Miller, Minott, and Clark. This notion that the Wolves getting older with Mike (who is probably one more season and then retirement,) and Rudy who is turning 33 in June,) as dooming us is a little bizarre. The cap will explode with the tv money and people will want to play with Ant. A talented center coming as a free agent is not that crazy, and Rudy is not making so much as to doom anyone.