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What defines a first option?

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Re: What defines a first option? 

Post#61 » by Ell Curry » Tue Dec 3, 2024 8:04 pm

I'd say there are these kinds of genuine first options, in this sort of order of preference:

Legit Championship #1:
1) Elite offensive player - Can get 40, also creating 3s for others is now a must, either because the threat of you getting one requires off-ball help (Curry,), you create doubles for others by forcing help with the ball due to the driving threat (Giannis, SGA) or you take them and create them for others with your passing (Jokic, Luka, Tatum).

Decent bet to win a Championship as #1 option with a similar level co-star or perfect team around him:
2) Guy who can get a tough bucket in the playoffs but maybe doesn't create a ton of open 3s for teammates and is elite defensively.- current KD, Kawhi or a DPOY who can get 30 without creating much for teammates, this is only AD at the 5, used to be a more common archetype (Ewing, Robinson. Hakeem is in the first group and not this one, because he played at a time where offensive efficiency was lower - he wasn't super efficient but did so on high volume and created 3s via doubles better than Ewing or Robinson did and had better coaching around him than they did in their primes. Current Hakeem I think would be in this group, along with Embiid. The game has really gone away from centers as first options, except for Jokic who is truly insane and also somehow a point guard).

Raptors example - Kawhi Leonard

Maybe can sneak a single Championship but unlikely, definitely needs a great supporting cast that perfectly compliments him:

3) prime CP3, prime Lillard, Anthony Edwards, Donovan Mitchell and Jimmy Butler. You probably need a truly elite defensive team to win with this kind of guy, which is obviously easier to do with AD at the 5, plausible with Edwards and Butler and very tough with guys like Lillard and Mitchell.

CP3 and Lillard a good example of this type of player, as either the Clippers or Portland hitting on like a Josh Howard/OG Anunoby type SF would have maybe seen them sneak a championship with their otherwise solid teams that were missing one top 50 or top 60 kind of small forward. Same for Nash if Phoenix had ever found a better stretch 5 or retained Joe Johnson, maybe they do sneak one title. Banchero probably here for the next few years, then maybe he moves up.

Raptors example - Vince Carter at his peak.

Solid regular season #1, 2nd round ceiling, probably loses in first round:
Tier 5) Either a small or flawed guard like Trae Young or Prime Westbrook or ideally an elite stretch 5 - Just Towns and current Wemby - who can go 2-3 rounds deep on a team where a guard goes nuclear for a couple rounds like Mitchell and Murray have done in the playoffs recently.

The very good passing 5s who aren't Jokic (Sengun and Sabonis), go in this group, they're not gonna deliver in multiple playoff series, but 5 out is a great setup to make flawed perimeter players look better, and if you look at Minnesota for instance, their most recent genuinely good offensive season was with Towns as a stretch 5 even though Edwards is supposedly their "best" offensive player because you'd obviously want him with the ball with 2 minutes to go and not Towns.

Raptors example - Kyle Lowry, underrated regular season player, incredibly smart 2-way player, but couldn't be the man in the playoffs due to his his size, which would have necessitated him being Isaiah Thomas (and I don't think he would get to tier 2 these days due to the math/game changing) or a true offensive genius like Nash or CP3.

Tier 5)
For current Raptors purposes, Barnes is right now sort of a lesser version of a Jimmy Butler/Sabonis hybrid so I'd put him in this tier. If he could play the 5, I think he'd be close to be in that 4th group, but obviously you would need a ton of size and defensive ability around him to make that work and we don't have say Boston's guards and Markkanen's . As a 4, he's sort of similar to a Sabonis, but that's less valuable as a #5.

Raptors example - Prime Demar, Prime Bosh.
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Re: What defines a first option? 

Post#62 » by Pointgod » Tue Dec 3, 2024 8:07 pm

Player that can consistently put up big scoring nights and draw multiple defenders to open up the game for their teammates. Consistency is key. A lot of players can put up big games a couple times a season but doing it night in and night out is key. I’d say 25 ppg is the minimum requirement to be in the conversation
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Re: What defines a first option? 

Post#63 » by Roco14 » Tue Dec 3, 2024 8:46 pm

First option simply refers to the best offensive player on the team who is statistically most likely to score compared to his teammates

I believe most people here are defining 'first option on a championship team'
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Re: What defines a first option? 

Post#64 » by Raptorfan2012 » Tue Dec 3, 2024 8:51 pm

Those that take the shot and MAKES it when needed = First Option
Those that take the shot and MISSES it when needed = Chucker
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Re: What defines a first option? 

Post#65 » by Scase » Tue Dec 3, 2024 11:03 pm

Spida to me is the best example of a prototypical "first option". He's not a superstar, but he is definitely a guy who would be a first option on most teams.

He's not KD level first option, but he's also not Siakam level "first option".
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Re: What defines a first option? 

Post#66 » by disoblige » Tue Dec 3, 2024 11:55 pm

Whoever the coach designates as the first option is the 1st option. In most cases, the best offensive player in the lineup/team.

My ideal 1st option (relative to his peers):
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Re: What defines a first option? 

Post#67 » by tsherkin » Wed Dec 4, 2024 1:00 am

Indeed wrote:[
It is hard to compare the older generation to this date, as the requirement on efficiency has been changed.
So it possibly works back at their time, but hard to say in these days, particularly, having an efficient pull up 3 could become a very good scorer.


Specific efficiency, maybe. Not so much relative efficiency.

Harcore Fenton Mun wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
Harcore Fenton Mun wrote:It's the best player on your team. If that guy's a top five player in the league, even better.


Best player on your team isn't always your lead scorer.

If they can't score when the games on the line, are they your best scorer? Volumes one thing, timing's another.


This escapes the point. Not every team has someone who can score under those circumstances.
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Re: What defines a first option? 

Post#68 » by Indeed » Wed Dec 4, 2024 1:23 am

Ell Curry wrote:I'd say there are these kinds of genuine first options, in this sort of order of preference:

Legit Championship #1:
1) Elite offensive player - Can get 40, also creating 3s for others is now a must, either because the threat of you getting one requires off-ball help (Curry,), you create doubles for others by forcing help with the ball due to the driving threat (Giannis, SGA) or you take them and create them for others with your passing (Jokic, Luka, Tatum).

Decent bet to win a Championship as #1 option with a similar level co-star or perfect team around him:
2) Guy who can get a tough bucket in the playoffs but maybe doesn't create a ton of open 3s for teammates and is elite defensively.- current KD, Kawhi or a DPOY who can get 30 without creating much for teammates, this is only AD at the 5, used to be a more common archetype (Ewing, Robinson. Hakeem is in the first group and not this one, because he played at a time where offensive efficiency was lower - he wasn't super efficient but did so on high volume and created 3s via doubles better than Ewing or Robinson did and had better coaching around him than they did in their primes. Current Hakeem I think would be in this group, along with Embiid. The game has really gone away from centers as first options, except for Jokic who is truly insane and also somehow a point guard).

Raptors example - Kawhi Leonard

Maybe can sneak a single Championship but unlikely, definitely needs a great supporting cast that perfectly compliments him:

3) prime CP3, prime Lillard, Anthony Edwards, Donovan Mitchell and Jimmy Butler. You probably need a truly elite defensive team to win with this kind of guy, which is obviously easier to do with AD at the 5, plausible with Edwards and Butler and very tough with guys like Lillard and Mitchell.

CP3 and Lillard a good example of this type of player, as either the Clippers or Portland hitting on like a Josh Howard/OG Anunoby type SF would have maybe seen them sneak a championship with their otherwise solid teams that were missing one top 50 or top 60 kind of small forward. Same for Nash if Phoenix had ever found a better stretch 5 or retained Joe Johnson, maybe they do sneak one title. Banchero probably here for the next few years, then maybe he moves up.

Raptors example - Vince Carter at his peak.

Solid regular season #1, 2nd round ceiling, probably loses in first round:
Tier 5) Either a small or flawed guard like Trae Young or Prime Westbrook or ideally an elite stretch 5 - Just Towns and current Wemby - who can go 2-3 rounds deep on a team where a guard goes nuclear for a couple rounds like Mitchell and Murray have done in the playoffs recently.

The very good passing 5s who aren't Jokic (Sengun and Sabonis), go in this group, they're not gonna deliver in multiple playoff series, but 5 out is a great setup to make flawed perimeter players look better, and if you look at Minnesota for instance, their most recent genuinely good offensive season was with Towns as a stretch 5 even though Edwards is supposedly their "best" offensive player because you'd obviously want him with the ball with 2 minutes to go and not Towns.

Raptors example - Kyle Lowry, underrated regular season player, incredibly smart 2-way player, but couldn't be the man in the playoffs due to his his size, which would have necessitated him being Isaiah Thomas (and I don't think he would get to tier 2 these days due to the math/game changing) or a true offensive genius like Nash or CP3.

Tier 5)
For current Raptors purposes, Barnes is right now sort of a lesser version of a Jimmy Butler/Sabonis hybrid so I'd put him in this tier. If he could play the 5, I think he'd be close to be in that 4th group, but obviously you would need a ton of size and defensive ability around him to make that work and we don't have say Boston's guards and Markkanen's . As a 4, he's sort of similar to a Sabonis, but that's less valuable as a #5.

Raptors example - Prime Demar, Prime Bosh.


Not sure I agree with Tier 4 "who aren't Jokic".
Sengun and Sabonis (current non postup) are not first options, worst, they have no defensive position. Even someone like Poeltl being in this category who doesn't have shot creation skill but passing, wouldn't be a first option. This category should be a big who can create for themselves, such as Sabonis (postup), Siakam, Love (prime), Bosh (prime), Dirk, etc. Passing isn't really the reason when you look at these first options.
Note: Jokic can create for himself, which is the reason he is the first option, his passing is a bonus in that regards.

I don't think you need tier 5. Those examples seems to be 6th man (scorer without a defensive position) in a winning team.
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Re: What defines a first option? 

Post#69 » by OhCanada » Wed Dec 4, 2024 1:59 am

I've been having this conversation with a friend recently. In today's NBA you cant really be the first option without being the primary playmaker. Thats why a player like Micheal Porter Jr. can never take his game to the next level. You have to have that court vision to be trusted as a 1st option.
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Re: What defines a first option? 

Post#70 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Wed Dec 4, 2024 2:36 am

tsherkin wrote:This escapes the point. Not every team has someone who can score under those circumstances.

Every team's got a first option, there's 30 of them. A lot of them are just second options pretending, however. Even if they just default to being the first. Somebody's got to take those shots.
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Re: What defines a first option? 

Post#71 » by Rawahl » Wed Dec 4, 2024 9:45 am

Indeed wrote:
Rawahl wrote:Thank you all for your replies.
As far as I have read (and understood, hopefully) I can pin down some thoughts:
We have to split this thread in 2 parts: What defines a first option on a team? Its the player the team relies on to get the offense going when there is the need for offense (plays have broken down, everyone else is cold, crunchtime with full attention on defense and so on) and, as someone has suggested, its usually the player with the highest usage in terms of offense. For example, for the raptors RJ is the first option right now.

What defines an ideal first option (contender level)?
Here the opinions are very wide, but I will try to sort out some of the suggestions that seem to be shared by most.
1) A player that is seen by the opponent as the most dangerous, that with his presence influences the way the other team plays. A player with gravity.
--> I thought about all the points brought for players that set up plays and give their teammates good looks, but in the end, this players, in a vacuum, are only good if they have finishers around them. This means, that if you have a good distributor with very weak shooters, he will have a problem. So he will need another skill: attract attention, and the only real mean to attract attention is to be a skilled scorer, so the danger has to be initially the scoring ability, that enables the ability to set up team mates.
2) A player that can take over games on his own.
--> Again, this means being able to score, otherwise a player can set up his teammates as much as he wants, if they are not able to hit the basket he has to act on his own.
3) A player to give the ball when it matters the most to have a result.
--> This concern clutch plays as plays where you need to regain momentum or come out of a negative moment. Here again for the majority of time it means a player that gives you a bucket. This can be by being able to get a difficult shot of with a good chance to make it, by blowing by a defender, exploiting a mismatch or simply by being able to cut at the right time or attack with the right angle.


I think this is a good summary.
There maybe a few controversial items
1) Does the first option requires passing (vision) skill?
2) A lob threat is seen as the most dangerous player on offense, do you believe he is the first option without self creation skill?
3) Is defense part of this? Can you win games with your first option being below average defender?
4) Do you believe volume is still important?


1) This is part of the gravity. Or the player is able to get his buckets despite the other teams defense (Lebron, Kawhi, KD) or the player comes to a point where the defense will suffocate him. In this case it would be necessary that this player has some passing skills so the team can take advantage from the additional space. Otherwise its just a ram that will create turnovers trying to go 1v5. So, yes, some sort of passing has to be there, so in the gravity part has to be integrated the ability to find the open player and to pass it to him. This means also, that a first option needs vision and a good BBIQ.
2) Since the lob threat is a one pony trick it would be too easy to negate it in clutch situations, so the "ideal" player has to be more than just a lob threat. Clearly, if there should ever be a player that has such a vertical or has such a standing reach that he is impossible to stop from consistently being a lob threat, that would be a first option, but that's theoretical at this point.
3) Every player that is a weak link as a defender has to been hidden. If you are a first option you need to give quite more than you cost, so all depend from a team construction viewpoint. I can imagine a player with outstanding offense tools and decent passing but the weakest defender in a setup of 3 3+d guys and a defensive floor general doing well, so yes, being below average could be acceptable.
4) That again is situational. If the team overall is good offensively perhaps the players duty is to take care of the offense when it becomes stagnant or to reverse momentum or in clutch situations. If there is a shared offense, the player can simply be a facilitator and try to engage the others (what jokic often does), but for me at this point it becomes more clear that first option has to be able to take on volume and carry the offense on a given night (when everyone is cold).
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Re: What defines a first option? 

Post#72 » by Rawahl » Wed Dec 4, 2024 1:45 pm

Ell Curry wrote:I'd say there are these kinds of genuine first options, in this sort of order of preference:

Legit Championship #1:
1) Elite offensive player - Can get 40, also creating 3s for others is now a must, either because the threat of you getting one requires off-ball help (Curry,), you create doubles for others by forcing help with the ball due to the driving threat (Giannis, SGA) or you take them and create them for others with your passing (Jokic, Luka, Tatum).

Decent bet to win a Championship as #1 option with a similar level co-star or perfect team around him:
2) Guy who can get a tough bucket in the playoffs but maybe doesn't create a ton of open 3s for teammates and is elite defensively.- current KD, Kawhi or a DPOY who can get 30 without creating much for teammates, this is only AD at the 5, used to be a more common archetype (Ewing, Robinson. Hakeem is in the first group and not this one, because he played at a time where offensive efficiency was lower - he wasn't super efficient but did so on high volume and created 3s via doubles better than Ewing or Robinson did and had better coaching around him than they did in their primes. Current Hakeem I think would be in this group, along with Embiid. The game has really gone away from centers as first options, except for Jokic who is truly insane and also somehow a point guard).

Raptors example - Kawhi Leonard

Maybe can sneak a single Championship but unlikely, definitely needs a great supporting cast that perfectly compliments him:

3) prime CP3, prime Lillard, Anthony Edwards, Donovan Mitchell and Jimmy Butler. You probably need a truly elite defensive team to win with this kind of guy, which is obviously easier to do with AD at the 5, plausible with Edwards and Butler and very tough with guys like Lillard and Mitchell.

CP3 and Lillard a good example of this type of player, as either the Clippers or Portland hitting on like a Josh Howard/OG Anunoby type SF would have maybe seen them sneak a championship with their otherwise solid teams that were missing one top 50 or top 60 kind of small forward. Same for Nash if Phoenix had ever found a better stretch 5 or retained Joe Johnson, maybe they do sneak one title. Banchero probably here for the next few years, then maybe he moves up.

Raptors example - Vince Carter at his peak.

Solid regular season #1, 2nd round ceiling, probably loses in first round:
Tier 5) Either a small or flawed guard like Trae Young or Prime Westbrook or ideally an elite stretch 5 - Just Towns and current Wemby - who can go 2-3 rounds deep on a team where a guard goes nuclear for a couple rounds like Mitchell and Murray have done in the playoffs recently.

The very good passing 5s who aren't Jokic (Sengun and Sabonis), go in this group, they're not gonna deliver in multiple playoff series, but 5 out is a great setup to make flawed perimeter players look better, and if you look at Minnesota for instance, their most recent genuinely good offensive season was with Towns as a stretch 5 even though Edwards is supposedly their "best" offensive player because you'd obviously want him with the ball with 2 minutes to go and not Towns.

Raptors example - Kyle Lowry, underrated regular season player, incredibly smart 2-way player, but couldn't be the man in the playoffs due to his his size, which would have necessitated him being Isaiah Thomas (and I don't think he would get to tier 2 these days due to the math/game changing) or a true offensive genius like Nash or CP3.

Tier 5)
For current Raptors purposes, Barnes is right now sort of a lesser version of a Jimmy Butler/Sabonis hybrid so I'd put him in this tier. If he could play the 5, I think he'd be close to be in that 4th group, but obviously you would need a ton of size and defensive ability around him to make that work and we don't have say Boston's guards and Markkanen's . As a 4, he's sort of similar to a Sabonis, but that's less valuable as a #5.

Raptors example - Prime Demar, Prime Bosh.


Thank you for your work trying to squeeze out the skills of a first option through the analysis of actual players and their role for their team, but I was really looking for a "general" blueprint of a first option. You made it clear that a player needs different skills to be a first option depending on their role in the team, and I agree with this, but if we look at every possible combination for a role (i.e. center) to serve as first option and look also at a team construction point of view it would probably go too far.
I was really looking at the traits most people have in mind when they think about a first option. So I can understand better when we talk about looking for a first option for our team or if player x or y is a first option or not.

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