Tank World Order V (Rise of the Phoenix)

[OakleyDokely]

My expectations are:

1) play the young guys, especially in high leverage situations
2) no short term moves/acquisitions
3) take offers for the vets and make a move if you can get a good deal
4) don't rush back players from injuries

As long as these 4 things happen, I'm okay with letting the chips fall where they may.

[PushDaRock]

And your post doesn’t even mention IQ has played like 60 minutes, and Brown/Olynyk have played 0.

I said before the year we were too good to tank if healthy and got absolutely flamed by the regulars in this thread.

Well, it says 2nd most injuries. I don't know that this team is too good to tank since it can and will play rookies/young guys and lose.

I don't know that it can tank to the bottom with Barnes. 1) because he's good 2) because you can't be obvious and undercut winning with him around, like some suggestions here.

Agreed.

We are a team currently down 4 players, and our bench is still holding their own and even outperforming other benches some nights. Depth was supposed to be bad this year, and now it looks like a strength thats only going to get stronger once our bench is healthy. ASsuming we start IQ/Agbaji/RJ/Barnes/Poeltl, bringing Davion/Walter/Dick/Brown/Mogbo/Olynyk off the bench is also going to win us games. In the regular season, depth simply wins a lot of matchups.

That is why I think we are to good to truly tank. And then when you add in the Barnes leap, and RJ averaging 24.6/6.3/5.4 on 61TS% when he plays with Barnes, and then add in IQ/Dick to bring the shooting I just cant see us finishing in the bottom 5.

I for one would love a top 5 draft pick and if we get "unlucky" with some injuries then sure, I am all for it, but if the team is healthy they are simply going to win games, and IDK how you can gut the team without giving them a chance. Doing that is just a gut shot to guys like Scottie who likely want to prove right now they can lead a team, and if we take that away before he can even show us? That could have negative long term repercussions3

Edit: More thoughts. I am interested to see what happens if/when we ever have all our guys available. How do you choose who to play? We literally have about 14 guys who you can convince yourself deserve minutes now

IQ / Davion / Shead
Agbaji / Dick / Walter
RJ / Brown / Battle
Barnes / Mogbo / Boucher
Poeltl / Olynyk

Even Fernando lately has looked okay.

The obvious moves are a Boucher trade, and Shead IMO has not been good enough and he can go to the G-League. But that is still 12 guys.

This has been my stance all along as well. I thought the talent was likely going to be too much to truly tank but the chemistry part you never are sure about but this team plays hard and unselfish, that alone is going to win some games. I think people are just delusional thinking we can "rest" guys here and there into a bottom 5 record. I think people are also fooling themselves to think Masai is overly focused on what pick we get, we have a roster full of young and promising players. The priority is the roster and development of their skill and winning habits, not just on picking the highest possible. I think you owe it to the players to show you what they can do at full strength before you just start pulling the rug under them as well.

[dohboy_24]

Going 8-17 would give us a record of 14-32 just before the trade deadline (Feb 6th).

If we're able to pick up a couple of extra wins to go 12-13 over this stretch of games, our record after playing more than 60% of our schedule would still be just 18 wins with 28 losses.

Even at that win rate (39%) we'd probably be out of contention for the play-in tournament and would still likely be positioned as "sellers" at the trade deadline with Bruce Brown and Jakob Poeltl the most likely candidates to be dealt.

I'm willing to bet we win AT LEAST 11 of those games....and I actually counted probably closer to 12-13 especially as we continue to add guys back into the lineup so I think we're gonna be close to 19-20 Ws and 26-27Ls. I wouldn't be surprised if they got kinda hot and took another game or so and catch a couple teams sleeping.

[Scase]

“Oh no, the guy we are pining our hopes on is, um, leading us to wins, paired with a 24-year old sidekick. All the young newcomers are contributing. This sucks!”

I’m all in on the tank (if it happens) but if these guys make it to play-in territory due to some extended, unexpected run that is led by Scottie, how can anyone be mad at that?

The issue I have, is that there is nothing impressive, or even promising about making the play in with the current state of the east. A .409 record gets you in the playoffs right now, that is not something promising for the future, that is fools gold.

What is impressive is how competitive we've been against good teams considering how injured we've been. It's not all seen through a single lens of wins in the east.

I'm pretty sure we all stated prior to the start of the season that we expected to pull off wins against better teams early on as that isn't anything new early in the season. Moral victories don't give me hope that the roster will be good, cause we also lost to the hornets and twice to the pistons.

If Scottie and RJ are dragging this team to an above .500 winning record while putting up all NBA level numbers, I will share the optimism, but as of now we lose to bad teams still and all our wins have been against bad or mediocre teams.

And realistically, making the play in a bad east is significantly worse than a high pick for the long term success of the team. If the team is good enough to be play in material, there is still no instance where eating dirt for one year and getting a high pick then being a play in team next year, is a worse outcome than making the play in this year with a mid pick.

I'm here for the long term, not instant gratification wins.

[Shwaguy]

How's next year's draft class looking? This Pacer's Pick looking pretty interesting.

Wouldn't hate having a young high upside core team that's making the playoffs and having another team get a lotto pick for us, or if we're not there yet next year, two lotto picks. Win-Win either way.

[MiamiSPX]

Yeah again, it feels like they're just sort of 'playing' and letting the chips fall as they do.

They aren't going for it, nor are they outright Wizard esque tanking.

“Oh no, the guy we are pining our hopes on is, um, leading us to wins, paired with a 24-year old sidekick. All the young newcomers are contributing. This sucks!”

I’m all in on the tank (if it happens) but if these guys make it to play-in territory due to some extended, unexpected run that is led by Scottie, how can anyone be mad at that?

The issue I have, is that there is nothing impressive, or even promising about making the play in with the current state of the east. A .409 record gets you in the playoffs right now, that is not something promising for the future, that is fools gold.

I don't think they are actively trying to make the play-in as an organizational goal. And I certainly don't want them to start making moves to achieve that. All I'm saying is that we are playing pretty good lately and all if it is fueled by the guys we want to see improvement from. If this organically, and unexpectedly, leads to a lot more wins...that is not a bad thing.

Barnes was pretty pissed at coming out of a close game yesterday, even though it was only going to be for 2 minutes. You start shutting him down later in the season, or asking him to, and he'll be knocking on Riley's door once Jimmy is off the books, IMO. He wants to win.

[ItsDanger]

Attendance at home games has started to finally crack, only 17,741. Still good for most teams but that's lowest in last 2 seasons if I'm not mistaken. Loss of potential business always promotes change.

Anti-tankers lack the patience required to secure a top pick. They want instant gratification which means they want wins right now.

Masai needs to rebuild properly. The headwinds he faces is that some of these other teams aren't very good. The team's W/L is relative to the current competition.

[Duffman100]

The issue I have, is that there is nothing impressive, or even promising about making the play in with the current state of the east. A .409 record gets you in the playoffs right now, that is not something promising for the future, that is fools gold.

What is impressive is how competitive we've been against good teams considering how injured we've been. It's not all seen through a single lens of wins in the east.

I'm pretty sure we all stated prior to the start of the season that we expected to pull off wins against better teams early on as that isn't anything new early in the season. Moral victories don't give me hope that the roster will be good, cause we also lost to the hornets and twice to the pistons.

If Scottie and RJ are dragging this team to an above .500 winning record while putting up all NBA level numbers, I will share the optimism, but as of now we lose to bad teams still and all our wins have been against bad or mediocre teams.

And realistically, making the play in a bad east is significantly worse than a high pick for the long term success of the team. If the team is good enough to be play in material, there is still no instance where eating dirt for one year and getting a high pick then being a play in team next year, is a worse outcome than making the play in this year with a mid pick.

I'm here for the long term, not instant gratification wins.

Except, again, we're competitive and pushing the good teams in games that we should be losing by a wide margin.

So we aren't just beating bad teams, we are also challenging good teams and putting up an admirable fight.

[Shwaguy]

The issue I have, is that there is nothing impressive, or even promising about making the play in with the current state of the east. A .409 record gets you in the playoffs right now, that is not something promising for the future, that is fools gold.

What is impressive is how competitive we've been against good teams considering how injured we've been. It's not all seen through a single lens of wins in the east.

I'm pretty sure we all stated prior to the start of the season that we expected to pull off wins against better teams early on as that isn't anything new early in the season. Moral victories don't give me hope that the roster will be good, cause we also lost to the hornets and twice to the pistons.

If Scottie and RJ are dragging this team to an above .500 winning record while putting up all NBA level numbers, I will share the optimism, but as of now we lose to bad teams still and all our wins have been against bad or mediocre teams.

And realistically, making the play in a bad east is significantly worse than a high pick for the long term success of the team. If the team is good enough to be play in material, there is still no instance where eating dirt for one year and getting a high pick then being a play in team next year, is a worse outcome than making the play in this year with a mid pick.

I'm here for the long term, not instant gratification wins.

East Play-in teams this season will still be in the top 10 in lotto odds. It's really not such a travesty this season due to conference imbalance, winning the play-in would hurt though.



Would take a higher pick for sure, but they are essentially 6-5 with Scottie playing a full game, he's too high impact for them to tank when he plays. Unless there's an injury I don't think getting our hopes up for a top 5 pick is likely. Maybe a Poeltl trade gets us there? But I'd be pretty surprised if that happens before the trade deadline, and even then seems more likely to be an offseason move.

All for selling off guys though. Problem is none of the vets worth selling off are playing right now so it's not exactly gonna make the team worse, more likely to make the team better if anything.

[Duffman100]

Anti-tankers lack the patience required to secure a top pick.

And pro-tankers lack the patience to watch prospects grow, ironically.

See, we can both make ridiculous low value comments, isn't it fun.

Man you have to start offering actual value to this forum.

[Shwaguy]

Attendance at home games has started to finally crack, only 17,741. Still good for most teams but that's lowest in last 2 seasons if I'm not mistaken. Loss of potential business always promotes change.

Anti-tankers lack the patience required to secure a top pick. They want instant gratification which means they want wins right now.

Masai needs to rebuild properly. The headwinds he faces is that some of these other teams aren't very good. The team's W/L is relative to the current competition.

What do you expect Masai to do for them to tank? Trade Scottie? Because he's not injured, and they aren't going to be bottom 5 while he's healthy and playing. They're an above .500 team with him in the lineup.

Saying "Make up an injury" and force him not to play is not an appropriate answer, btw.

[ItsDanger]

Anti-tankers lack the patience required to secure a top pick.

And pro-tankers lack the patience to watch prospects grow, ironically.

See, we can both make ridiculous low value comments, isn't it fun.

Man you have to start offering actual value to this forum.

One side can criticize lack of patience, but the other side cannot?

[Duffman100]

Anti-tankers lack the patience required to secure a top pick.

And pro-tankers lack the patience to watch prospects grow, ironically.

See, we can both make ridiculous low value comments, isn't it fun.

Man you have to start offering actual value to this forum.

One side can criticize lack of patience, but the other side cannot?

Did the point fly over your head? Not shocking.

[ItsDanger]

Attendance at home games has started to finally crack, only 17,741. Still good for most teams but that's lowest in last 2 seasons if I'm not mistaken. Loss of potential business always promotes change.

Anti-tankers lack the patience required to secure a top pick. They want instant gratification which means they want wins right now.

Masai needs to rebuild properly. The headwinds he faces is that some of these other teams aren't very good. The team's W/L is relative to the current competition.

What do you expect Masai to do for them to tank? Trade Scottie? Because he's not injured, and they aren't going to be bottom 5 while he's healthy and playing. They're an above .500 team with him in the lineup.

Saying "Make up an injury" and force him not to play is not an appropriate answer, btw.

Trade Poeltl, extend injuries, play rookies more. Options are definitely limited at this point.

[Shwaguy]

Attendance at home games has started to finally crack, only 17,741. Still good for most teams but that's lowest in last 2 seasons if I'm not mistaken. Loss of potential business always promotes change.

Anti-tankers lack the patience required to secure a top pick. They want instant gratification which means they want wins right now.

Masai needs to rebuild properly. The headwinds he faces is that some of these other teams aren't very good. The team's W/L is relative to the current competition.

What do you expect Masai to do for them to tank? Trade Scottie? Because he's not injured, and they aren't going to be bottom 5 while he's healthy and playing. They're an above .500 team with him in the lineup.

Saying "Make up an injury" and force him not to play is not an appropriate answer, btw.

Trade Poeltl, extend injuries, play rookies more. Options are definitely limited at this point.

I would like to see a Poeltl trade too, don't think you'd be maximizing his trade value by trading him now though, Trade Deadline or Offseason you'd probably get more for him. Not complaining if it happens sooner.

I'd argue that currently our rookies are making us more likely to win though. This draft class was very impactful. Playing Shead instead of Davion would hurt us a little bit? But I'm expecting Shead to be better than Davion before the end of this season even. Jakobe and Mogbo I think are contributing to wins more than losses, and are already playing.

[Tripod]

"We need to tank for a top pick"

"Well we just traded for one who is only 24 years old and putting up 23 ppg"

"No not that kind of top pick"

[Duffman100]

What do you expect Masai to do for them to tank? Trade Scottie? Because he's not injured, and they aren't going to be bottom 5 while he's healthy and playing. They're an above .500 team with him in the lineup.

Saying "Make up an injury" and force him not to play is not an appropriate answer, btw.

Trade Poeltl, extend injuries, play rookies more. Options are definitely limited at this point.

I would like to see a Poeltl trade too, don't think you'd be maximizing his trade value by trading him now though, Trade Deadline or Offseason you'd probably get more for him. Not complaining if it happens sooner.

I'd argue that currently our rookies are making us more likely to win though. This draft class was very impactful. Playing Shead instead of Davion would hurt us a little bit? But I'm expecting Shead to be better than Davion before the end of this season even. Jakobe and Mogbo I think are contributing to wins more than losses, and are already playing.

Who is out there to actually buy Poeltl?

Magic, Grizzlies, Lakers, Warriors?

To me that seems to be it.

[Shwaguy]

"We need to tank for a top pick"

"Well we just traded for one who is only 24 years old and putting up 23 ppg"

"No not that kind of top pick"

I wish he could play defence man.

Things would look soooo much cleaner if RJ could play defence.

I think even Gradey has a significantly higher ceiling than him on that end.

[Shwaguy]

Trade Poeltl, extend injuries, play rookies more. Options are definitely limited at this point.

I would like to see a Poeltl trade too, don't think you'd be maximizing his trade value by trading him now though, Trade Deadline or Offseason you'd probably get more for him. Not complaining if it happens sooner.

I'd argue that currently our rookies are making us more likely to win though. This draft class was very impactful. Playing Shead instead of Davion would hurt us a little bit? But I'm expecting Shead to be better than Davion before the end of this season even. Jakobe and Mogbo I think are contributing to wins more than losses, and are already playing.

Who is out there to actually buy Poeltl?

Magic, Grizzlies, Lakers, Warriors?

To me that seems to be it.

Those come to mind. Don't even think the Magic would do it.

More might open up in the offseason as well. Grizzlies unlikely to give up a lot I think they value Edey long term beyond the next couple of seasons.

[Duffman100]

I would like to see a Poeltl trade too, don't think you'd be maximizing his trade value by trading him now though, Trade Deadline or Offseason you'd probably get more for him. Not complaining if it happens sooner.

I'd argue that currently our rookies are making us more likely to win though. This draft class was very impactful. Playing Shead instead of Davion would hurt us a little bit? But I'm expecting Shead to be better than Davion before the end of this season even. Jakobe and Mogbo I think are contributing to wins more than losses, and are already playing.

Who is out there to actually buy Poeltl?

Magic, Grizzlies, Lakers, Warriors?

To me that seems to be it.

Those come to mind. Don't even think the Magic would do it.

More might open up in the offseason as well. Grizzlies unlikely to give up a lot I think they value Edey long term beyond the next couple of seasons.

Yeah I proposed Magic on the T&T board and they brought up if Poeltl moves the needle for them vs Goga/Mo. I think he does but they disagree. At least not to the point where they attach something of value.

Warriors have been notoriously stingy and not willing to match value and do the Lakers have anything to offer?

To me you don't deal Poeltl for pennies JUST to tank. That doesn't make sense to me.