Houston-Miami

[ThaFranchize84]

Throwing out another Butler scenario in the event Miami decides to go full in on the Bam/Herro timeline

Houston gets Butler and Rozier/Duncan. Pick which one provides more value to Houston roster.

Miami gets FVV, Jabari Smith, Adams, 2025 FRP

Why?

Houston gets Butler to lead their young core and make a serious run in the loaded west. They form what I would argue would be the best defensive wing rotation of Butler, Thompson, Brooks, etc. Houston moves Smith to open up more time for Eason, etc. They get either Rozier to replace FVV or Duncan to provide spacing for the rest of the team. They also give up one pick which the year can be changed given Houston’s preference.

Miami moves Butler to near his hometown with a better chance to compete for a title. Heat get Smith to pair next to Bam and lean into the younger timeline. This frees up time for JJJ and other young guys on the roster. They swap Rozier for FVV to help run the team and fit with Herro in the backcourt. Adams is a valuable expiring they can look to flip with either Rozier or Duncan whoever is left to add to the young core.

Thoughts?


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[LarsV8]

Not interested.

Expiring's and our 25 first is the best id offer.

[BBallFreak]

Not interested.

Expiring's and our 25 first is the best id offer.

No interest in that. I agree that you shouldn't accept the OP, either. But expiring contracts and a first doesn't get it done for us. We'd likely want another first, pitch in our own, and flip that package for a new franchise type of player...

[jbk1234]

I think expiring contracts and a first, maybe two firsts depending on protections, is about the top of Butler's market given his age and contract expectations.

[LarsV8]

No interest in that. I agree that you shouldn't accept the OP, either. But expiring contracts and a first doesn't get it done for us. We'd likely want another first, pitch in our own, and flip that package for a new franchise type of player...

Heat are in an all too familiar bind of what to do with an aging star. Sometimes you gamble and they walk for nothing, ala Clippers with Paul George. Sometimes another team gambles and they end up paying the price, ala Phoenix with Beal.

At the end of the day, its a gamble. But what is fairly obvious to me is there are few instances where the team that ended up with the aging star, ended up not regretting it.

The best example I can think of was Phoenix acquisition of Chris Paul. He was similar in caliber and contract status to Butler now.

November 16, 2020: Traded by the Oklahoma City Thunder with Abdel Nader to the Phoenix Suns for Ty Jerome, Jalen Lecque, Kelly Oubre Jr., Ricky Rubio and a 2022 1st round draft pick (Peyton Watson was later selected). 2022 1st-rd pick is PHO own. (Pick #30)

The price paid? Filler and a first.

If you are expecting to leverage a Butler return into a new star player...well...good luck.

[BBallFreak]

No interest in that. I agree that you shouldn't accept the OP, either. But expiring contracts and a first doesn't get it done for us. We'd likely want another first, pitch in our own, and flip that package for a new franchise type of player...

Heat are in an all too familiar bind of what to do with an aging star. Sometimes you gamble and they walk for nothing, ala Clippers with Paul George. Sometimes another team gambles and they end up paying the price, ala Phoenix with Beal.

At the end of the day, its a gamble. But what is fairly obvious to me is there are few instances where the team that ended up with the aging star, ended up not regretting it.

The best example I can think of was Phoenix acquisition of Chris Paul. He was similar in caliber and contract status to Butler now.

November 16, 2020: Traded by the Oklahoma City Thunder with Abdel Nader to the Phoenix Suns for Ty Jerome, Jalen Lecque, Kelly Oubre Jr., Ricky Rubio and a 2022 1st round draft pick (Peyton Watson was later selected). 2022 1st-rd pick is PHO own. (Pick #30)

The price paid? Filler and a first.

If you are expecting to leverage a Butler return into a new star player...well...good luck.

Maybe you missed the part where we pitch in our own? We have assets to add, including Jamie Jaquez, Ke'lel Ware, and Pelle Larsson, all of whom hold value.

[psman2]

If Houston is shortening their window with the 35 year old Butler, then I don't see them including FVV here. Something around Brooks/Adams/jeff Green with a couple assets is the likely deal. Cam and a 1st, or 2 1sts is likely the ballpark here. Maybe Jabari is included instead of the 1sts if they expect Butler to play PF. But shooting/spacing is going to be an issue in Houston, Butler and Sengun are low volume/bad 3pt shooters, and Amen and Eason are going to eat up more minutes and are not the greatest shooters either. Just don't know if you can make the spacing work.

Miami is in a tough spot, I see Miami fans pushing forward the idea of using Butler as the bulk of the value for their next franchise star, I just don't think that is a real path they have open to them. I think they either ride it out with Butler or just take the best deal they can with future assets and wait for the next opportunity that they can afford. Too many teams are going to outbid them on any real stars that hit the market, they are going to have to go discount shopping like the Mavs did with Irving. Ingram is the only name that really comes to mind, maybe LaVine...they will get outbid on any names bigger than this.

[psman2]

No interest in that. I agree that you shouldn't accept the OP, either. But expiring contracts and a first doesn't get it done for us. We'd likely want another first, pitch in our own, and flip that package for a new franchise type of player...

Heat are in an all too familiar bind of what to do with an aging star. Sometimes you gamble and they walk for nothing, ala Clippers with Paul George. Sometimes another team gambles and they end up paying the price, ala Phoenix with Beal.

At the end of the day, its a gamble. But what is fairly obvious to me is there are few instances where the team that ended up with the aging star, ended up not regretting it.

The best example I can think of was Phoenix acquisition of Chris Paul. He was similar in caliber and contract status to Butler now.

November 16, 2020: Traded by the Oklahoma City Thunder with Abdel Nader to the Phoenix Suns for Ty Jerome, Jalen Lecque, Kelly Oubre Jr., Ricky Rubio and a 2022 1st round draft pick (Peyton Watson was later selected). 2022 1st-rd pick is PHO own. (Pick #30)

The price paid? Filler and a first.

If you are expecting to leverage a Butler return into a new star player...well...good luck.

Maybe you missed the part where we pitch in our own? We have assets to add, including Jamie Jaquez, Ke'lel Ware, and Pelle Larsson, all of whom hold value.

Even with those guys, Miami is likely at the back of the line behind a big handful of teams when a real star hits the trade market. It would have to be a sitation that gets really ugly with a guy trying to force his way to Miami, that is likely not happening anytime soon.

[LarsV8]

Maybe you missed the part where we pitch in our own? We have assets to add, including Jamie Jaquez, Ke'lel Ware, and Pelle Larsson, all of whom hold value.

"leverage into" implies being a part of, so no, did not miss that.

However I would argue that is not a star package.

[BBallFreak]

Heat are in an all too familiar bind of what to do with an aging star. Sometimes you gamble and they walk for nothing, ala Clippers with Paul George. Sometimes another team gambles and they end up paying the price, ala Phoenix with Beal.

At the end of the day, its a gamble. But what is fairly obvious to me is there are few instances where the team that ended up with the aging star, ended up not regretting it.

The best example I can think of was Phoenix acquisition of Chris Paul. He was similar in caliber and contract status to Butler now.

November 16, 2020: Traded by the Oklahoma City Thunder with Abdel Nader to the Phoenix Suns for Ty Jerome, Jalen Lecque, Kelly Oubre Jr., Ricky Rubio and a 2022 1st round draft pick (Peyton Watson was later selected). 2022 1st-rd pick is PHO own. (Pick #30)

The price paid? Filler and a first.

If you are expecting to leverage a Butler return into a new star player...well...good luck.

Maybe you missed the part where we pitch in our own? We have assets to add, including Jamie Jaquez, Ke'lel Ware, and Pelle Larsson, all of whom hold value.

Even with those guys, Miami is likely at the back of the line behind a big handful of teams when a real star hits the trade market. It would have to be a sitation that gets really ugly with a guy trying to force his way to Miami, that is likely not happening anytime soon.

Yes, we've all heard this before.

Blah blah blah Miami has no assets and no hope. We get it.

Still don't care. Never have.

[BBallFreak]

Maybe you missed the part where we pitch in our own? We have assets to add, including Jamie Jaquez, Ke'lel Ware, and Pelle Larsson, all of whom hold value.

"leverage into" implies being a part of, so no, did not miss that.

However I would argue that is not a star package.

I don't care what you would argue. We traded Hassan Whiteside, Josh Richardson, a first and filler for Jimmy. Deals pop up. We can wait.

[LarsV8]

I don't care what you would argue.

Seems like a discussion board is probably not the right place for you then.

[psman2]

Maybe you missed the part where we pitch in our own? We have assets to add, including Jamie Jaquez, Ke'lel Ware, and Pelle Larsson, all of whom hold value.

"leverage into" implies being a part of, so no, did not miss that.

However I would argue that is not a star package.

I don't care what you would argue. We traded Hassan Whiteside, Josh Richardson, a first and filler for Jimmy. Deals pop up. We can wait.

And that type of SNT deal is a lot harder for Miami now. It is harder than ever to just make the money work in star trades even before you getting into an asset war. You have to naive to think Miami is in the driving seat for the next big star trade. Deals pop up and the teams willing to pay the most in assets usually win. There just are not likely stars hitting the market before the deadline this year when Miami has to make a decision on Butler outside of the Ingrams of the world.

[hugepatsfan]

Not interested.

Expiring's and our 25 first is the best id offer.

No interest in that. I agree that you shouldn't accept the OP, either. But expiring contracts and a first doesn't get it done for us. We'd likely want another first, pitch in our own, and flip that package for a new franchise type of player...

Are you looking to make that follow-up trade instantly? Because if so, that seems really unlikely. If a "new franchise type of player" is available then teams aren't going to trade for Butler instead so MIA can top off that package and get the more desirable star. They're going to just top the package off themselves and get that player for themselves.

Now maybe there a few teams out there who don't have enough to do that themselves. Those teams would "settle" for trading for Butler. But the problem comes back up if MIA is looking to do the other swap instantly, because teams like HOU still can outbid them for that replacement star.

I think trading Butler and using the return plus existing assets for a replacement star in one swoop is unlikely. But if MIA is willing to take longer term returns (like future picks) then I think it's something they could do in time. But the dynamics of doing it right now are tough because even flipping Butler for a couple of firsts I think other teams still have more to offer for a franchise type of player like you describe.

[jbk1234]

No interest in that. I agree that you shouldn't accept the OP, either. But expiring contracts and a first doesn't get it done for us. We'd likely want another first, pitch in our own, and flip that package for a new franchise type of player...

Heat are in an all too familiar bind of what to do with an aging star. Sometimes you gamble and they walk for nothing, ala Clippers with Paul George. Sometimes another team gambles and they end up paying the price, ala Phoenix with Beal.

At the end of the day, its a gamble. But what is fairly obvious to me is there are few instances where the team that ended up with the aging star, ended up not regretting it.

The best example I can think of was Phoenix acquisition of Chris Paul. He was similar in caliber and contract status to Butler now.

November 16, 2020: Traded by the Oklahoma City Thunder with Abdel Nader to the Phoenix Suns for Ty Jerome, Jalen Lecque, Kelly Oubre Jr., Ricky Rubio and a 2022 1st round draft pick (Peyton Watson was later selected). 2022 1st-rd pick is PHO own. (Pick #30)

The price paid? Filler and a first.

If you are expecting to leverage a Butler return into a new star player...well...good luck.

Maybe you missed the part where we pitch in our own? We have assets to add, including Jamie Jaquez, Ke'lel Ware, and Pelle Larsson, all of whom hold value.

I see two rotation players coming off the bench and a rookie project who has quite a ways to go.

[ThatBoyNick]

If Houston is shortening their window with the 35 year old Butler, then I don't see them including FVV here. Something around Brooks/Adams/jeff Green with a couple assets is the likely deal. Cam and a 1st, or 2 1sts is likely the ballpark here. Maybe Jabari is included instead of the 1sts if they expect Butler to play PF. But shooting/spacing is going to be an issue in Houston, Butler and Sengun are low volume/bad 3pt shooters, and Amen and Eason are going to eat up more minutes and are not the greatest shooters either. Just don't know if you can make the spacing work.

Swapping Brooks for Butler with our spacing is crazy. Brooks is our best 3PT shooter. Throwing in Jabari? Our 2nd best 3PT shooter lol

Butler to Houston just doesn’t make sense.

I don't care what you would argue.

Seems like a discussion board is probably not the right place for you then.

Damn lol

[ThaFranchize84]

I included FVV to try to make the money work but totally get Houston being hesitant to do that deal. I would have to think Miami might consider expirings along with Jabari and a 1st depending on what they can then flip those expiring contracts for in a subsequent deal. To me Jabari and the FRP is the key part of this deal if they were to move Butler to Houston.


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[BBallFreak]

I don't care what you would argue.

Seems like a discussion board is probably not the right place for you then.

Did I say I didn't care to discuss it with anyone? Or perhaps the word "you" implied "you", personally?

[BBallFreak]

I included FVV to try to make the money work but totally get Houston being hesitant to do that deal. I would have to think Miami might consider expirings along with Jabari and a 1st depending on what they can then flip those expiring contracts for in a subsequent deal. To me Jabari and the FRP is the key part of this deal if they were to move Butler to Houston.


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I don't think we're going to get a premium prospect like Jabari in trade for Jimmy.

[ThatBoyNick]

I don't think we're going to get a premium prospect like Jabari in trade for Jimmy.

It's not that it wouldn't be worth it if the fit were right for Houston, Smith is an alright prospect and It wouldn't be crazy to move him for a Butler level talent. I just don't see how we can, as one of the worst shooting teams in the NBA, trade any of: Smith, Fred or Brooks in exchange for a bad shooter. It's unfathomable to me.

Those 3 guys are the backbone of what pathetic spacing we try to string together, since Jalen goes on month long shooting slumps and Sengun isn't a shooter. Without them, trying to make a deal work salary wise for Jimmy would be ridiculous to pull off mid-season as a minimum 5 for 1 deal. Next off-season Adams expires which would make it impossible, short of a S&T or basing the deal around Jalen.

Houston should really be targeting to upgrade the shooting/spacing in any deals being made.