Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[OakleyDokely]

When Scottie plays this aggressive offensively, you see his true potential. You also see just how much more talented he is than anyone else on the team. He looks superstar level. I love what RJ is bringing to the team, but you can see that the gap between them as players is significant. That's no slight on RJ........just more of a testament to how good Scottie "could" become.

When he plays bully ball and he's aggressive, it's pretty much over for the defender. He's just so much longer, stronger than everyone defending him. Typical bigs aren't mobile enough to defend him and wings are too small. He's usually facing a mismatch.

He still has that passive playmaker/passer mentality when it comes to finding his offense, especially in the first Q or two, but when he turns it on, he can get to pretty much get to any spot he wants on the court.

[tsherkin]

I'm making fun of your criminally underrating of Scottie, but is in good nature.

I think you misunderstand my position on Scottie, in all honesty. I think well of him. I dont think he has "title/superstar-level" scoring in him, but his breadth of contribution I have always appreciated. I think he is a good player and I am happy to have him as a Raptor.

Scottie is the orchestra conductor. He's going to direct the pieces. Masai needs to build the orchestra, which likely includes a play finisher at the end of games.

I agree. I dont see Scottie as a 30 ppg guy, but that doesnt mean he isnt critical to our team.

[Shwaguy]

I think you misunderstand my position on Scottie, in all honesty. I think well of him. I dont think he has "title/superstar-level" scoring in him, but his breadth of contribution I have always appreciated. I think he is a good player and I am happy to have him as a Raptor.

Scottie is the orchestra conductor. He's going to direct the pieces. Masai needs to build the orchestra, which likely includes a play finisher at the end of games.

I agree. I dont see Scottie as a 30 ppg guy, but that doesnt mean he isnt critical to our team.

It doesn't mean he can't be the best player on a contender either. The notion that they need some 30ppg iso god to get there is an incorrect one. Especially with a player like Scottie in the fold.

Scottie has a SIGNIFICANTLY higher chance of being the player capable of leading a title contender than we are to draft one in this year's coming draft, even if we had the best lottery odds going into the lotto. We do need another high impact player. Our future contention is not contingent on that player being better than Scottie though, if he is, that'd be an amazingly fortunate turn of events, but if he isn't. The future is still very bright.

[tsherkin]

It doesn't mean he can't be the best player on a contender either. The notion that they need some 30ppg iso god to get there is an incorrect one. Especially with a player like Scottie in the fold.

I'm inclined to disagree with that. Obviously, 30 is a somewhat arbitrary threshold and isnt specifically necessary. But scoring ability at a given level is.

Scottie has a SIGNIFICANTLY higher chance of being the player capable of leading a title contender than we are to draft one in this year's coming draft, even if we had the best lottery odds going into the lotto. We do need another high impact player. Our future contention is not contingent on that player being better than Scottie though, if he is, that'd be an amazingly fortunate turn of events, but if he isn't. The future is still very bright.

We definitely need a player better than Scottie in his extant form as our best player to win a title. NBA history isnt terribly subtle about that. There are some exceptions, but in 4.5 decades, not even a handful.

But that is somewhat immaterial. That is a luck-based thing. I'm curious to see Barnes, RJ, Quick and Gradey, and to see how good they can be together. With a title already in the bag, Im fine with us seeing what we can build with them.

[Shwaguy]

It doesn't mean he can't be the best player on a contender either. The notion that they need some 30ppg iso god to get there is an incorrect one. Especially with a player like Scottie in the fold.

I'm inclined to disagree with that. Obviously, 30 is a somewhat arbitrary threshold and isnt specifically necessary. But scoring ability at a given level is.

You definitely need guys who can get buckets. I disagree that that player has to be the best player on the team. A guy like Tyler Herro is capable of putting up close to that 25-30ppg, and efficiently too. But he would never be the best player on a contender. We definitely need a flamethrower/play finisher who's at an all star level to pair with Scottie and reap the benefits of his court vision and bball IQ. I don't think that flamethrower necessarily needs to be an overall better player than Scottie.

Scottie has a SIGNIFICANTLY higher chance of being the player capable of leading a title contender than we are to draft one in this year's coming draft, even if we had the best lottery odds going into the lotto. We do need another high impact player. Our future contention is not contingent on that player being better than Scottie though, if he is, that'd be an amazingly fortunate turn of events, but if he isn't. The future is still very bright.

We definitely need a player better than Scottie in his extant form as our best player to win a title. NBA history isnt terribly subtle about that. There are some exceptions, but in 4.5 decades, not even a handful.

But that is somewhat immaterial. That is a luck-based thing. I'm curious to see Barnes, RJ, Quick and Gradey, and to see how good they can be together. With a title already in the bag, Im fine with us seeing what we can build with them.

Someone better than current Scottie we certainly need.

But the path we have that is most likely to result in that happening, is Scottie becoming that player himself.

Finishing dead last in the league has a chance to produce that, for sure. I don't see how 1st in lotto odds (So a 52% at a top 4 pick) is more likely to produce that player than Scottie is likely to continue his ascension into becoming that player himself. Even if dead last was a guaranteed first overall pick I don't think that is more likely to produce that player than the odds of Scottie developing into that.


I would like another high pick though, because adding another Scottie level prospect and having two of them, would be insane, and we want to maximize our chances of getting that player. But I think our fanbase doesn't realize what our current, highest chance path to having a superstar on our team is.

[HiJiNX]

When Scottie plays this aggressive offensively, you see his true potential. You also see just how much more talented he is than anyone else on the team. He looks superstar level. I love what RJ is bringing to the team, but you can see that the gap between them as players is significant. That's no slight on RJ........just more of a testament to how good Scottie "could" become.

I think it comes back to who is defending him.

Scottie knew he could easily muscle Siakam over and over again. But when he loses that ability, he shrinks. He still largely relies on that.

For sure. But every star/superstar relies on something whether it be speed, or height, or size, or length, or a particular skill. Size/strength is Scottie’s thing and if he can make it work for him then great because how many wings are strong enough to stop him?

It’s dope to see Scottie growing in confidence and slowly expanding his game. His midrange jumper looks particularly promising.

[Badonkadonk]

Scottie is the orchestra conductor. He's going to direct the pieces. Masai needs to build the orchestra, which likely includes a play finisher at the end of games.

I agree. I dont see Scottie as a 30 ppg guy, but that doesnt mean he isnt critical to our team.

It doesn't mean he can't be the best player on a contender either. The notion that they need some 30ppg iso god to get there is an incorrect one. Especially with a player like Scottie in the fold.

Scottie has a SIGNIFICANTLY higher chance of being the player capable of leading a title contender than we are to draft one in this year's coming draft, even if we had the best lottery odds going into the lotto. We do need another high impact player. Our future contention is not contingent on that player being better than Scottie though, if he is, that'd be an amazingly fortunate turn of events, but if he isn't. The future is still very bright.

This is one of several reasons terms like "primary option" have really become outdated. The Nuggets won in '23 and Jokic averaged 24.5ppg but was by far their best player, the lowest he's put up in the last 5 years. His highest was ~27ppg prior to this year (currently just over 30 as he's completely carried that team as they've been hurt/bad).

Is Barnes as good as Joker? No, but the archtype is similar and your best player doesn't need to be the one who puts the ball in the hoop the most.

Tatum dipped down to 26.9ppg last year when the Celtics won their chip, as a more egalitarian offence was the smart way for the Celtics to go to put them over the top (he was 30.1ppg the year before).

[tdotrep2]

damn barnes with someone like anthony edwards... sheesh

[Vampirate]

Most of Barnes buckets weren't that impressive, but this one was.

0:53 seconds in.

Watch on YouTube

Superstar type move, goes into the FT area, fakes a pass to get the double off him then immediately hits the contested mid range jumpshot like it was nothing.

This is what actually makes him dangerous, the more he does moves like this, the more teams would then need to prepare for that type of shot, thus opening up easier 3 point shots for his teammates.

If teams overplay for the pass, he can sink that shot.

[Scase]

Saw a Grant Hill if he stayed healthy comp and wow yeah I see the vision completely.

It's like Scottie's BBIQ and body are just several steps ahead of his skillset right now. The vision is there, his handle and jumper are still so clunky

Yeah he just is not a smooth athlete yet. But that's also something to be excited about. Still has a bunch he can improve on yet is already so impactful.

What if his 3 gets better
What if his midrange gets better
What if he starts drawing more contact on drives
What if he gets a quicker 1st step
What if he gets more FTA
What if he plays with a stretch C to open the paint

Imagine if just some of these get better

I don't think he'll ever be a "smooth" athlete, he's got a very herky jerky kinda movement, but it doesn't seem to cause any issues. It doesn't have to look pretty as long as it goes in lol.

His FTr has been a really nice sign this year, his 3 is looking improved so far that 1/6 and 2/12 in back to back games really makes his % look worse I think than it is. Hopefully he's not just on a hot streak.

His midrange would be massive if he could improve it and I worry he's focusing a little too much on 3's, but he's still young.
I don't think his first step will ever get better, that's kinda one of those things you just have or don't for the most part.
And a stretch 3 would be one of the most impactful things to his game I think, having that as an option would REALLY open up the floor for him and RJ to operate.

It's also why I desperately want us to get a high pick, watching him with Bailey would be bonkers, league would be on notice with that duo.

Most of Barnes buckets weren't that impressive, but this one was.

0:53 seconds in.

Watch on YouTube

Superstar type move, goes into the FT area, fakes a pass to get the double off him then immediately hits the contested mid range jumpshot like it was nothing.

This is what actually makes him dangerous, the more he does moves like this, the more teams would then need to prepare for that type of shot, thus opening up easier 3 point shots for his teammates.

If teams overplay for the pass, he can sink that shot.

This is why I want him to work on his middy over his 3 for now, it would be unstoppable with his height and simple 1 leg fade. Not even wemby could contest that.

[Vampirate]

His midrange would be massive if he could improve it and I worry he's focusing a little too much on 3's, but he's still young.

Not arguing sustainability, how much is real, small sample size etc but that's quite the jump, even in a small sample size.

Imo I think he's working on his shooting overall both three point shooting and at that range.

I think you are so focused on the three point shots and the misses because they stick out like a sore thumb that you don't look at what he's currently doing inside the three point line.

[TheProfessor]

Barnes floor game looks amazing, but damn his offensive game is ugly. He cannot create easy looks for himself. I think Barnes can be the best player on a championship team, but he cannot and will not be your best offensive player on team with championship aspirations.

I would love to see Barnes paired with a young lillard/kyrie or brunson/garland to hopefully give barnes more space and easier looks.
Unfortunately that's not realistic and that's why the raptors should tank for egor/harper.

[Vampirate]

Barnes floor game looks amazing, but damn his offensive game is ugly. He cannot create easy looks for himself. I think Barnes can be the best player on a championship team, but he cannot and will not be your best offensive player on team with championship aspirations.

I would love to see Barnes paired with a young lillard/kyrie or brunson/garland to hopefully give barnes more space and easier looks.
Unfortunately that's not realistic and that's why the raptors should tank for egor/harper.

He has the strength, size and length to have an unstoppable spammable move, will he get that move is another question.

[TheProfessor]

Barnes floor game looks amazing, but damn his offensive game is ugly. He cannot create easy looks for himself. I think Barnes can be the best player on a championship team, but he cannot and will not be your best offensive player on team with championship aspirations.

I would love to see Barnes paired with a young lillard/kyrie or brunson/garland to hopefully give barnes more space and easier looks.
Unfortunately that's not realistic and that's why the raptors should tank for egor/harper.

He has the strength, size and length to have an unstoppable spammable move, will he get that move is another question.

Yeah but he may not have the coordination, the shots he creates for himself are poor. Only the likes of Jokic, Giannis, Embiid can really play that and be efficient, because they are all-time great talents and B they godly FTR which Barnes doesn't.

His scoring game reminds me more of a human version of Webby/Siakam or Anthony Edwards without the 3-point volume. I don't think that will change. The only way to make him a positive scorer is to make him a secondary option to a true scorer who spaces the floor, I.e., Garland/Kyrie/Lillard/Curry.

[Vampirate]

Barnes floor game looks amazing, but damn his offensive game is ugly. He cannot create easy looks for himself. I think Barnes can be the best player on a championship team, but he cannot and will not be your best offensive player on team with championship aspirations.

I would love to see Barnes paired with a young lillard/kyrie or brunson/garland to hopefully give barnes more space and easier looks.
Unfortunately that's not realistic and that's why the raptors should tank for egor/harper.

He has the strength, size and length to have an unstoppable spammable move, will he get that move is another question.

Yeah but he may not have the coordination, the shots he creates for himself are poor. Only the likes of Jokic, Giannis, Embiid can really play that and be efficient, because they are all-time great talents and B they godly FTR which Barnes doesn't.

His scoring game reminds me more of a human version of Webby/Siakam or Anthony Edwards without the 3-point volume. I don't think that will change. The only way to make him a positive scorer is to make him a secondary option to a true scorer who spaces the floor, I.e., Garland/Kyrie/Lillard/Curry.

Consistency is the key.

Also strange things happen, like Giannis turning himself into an elite midrange shooter thus far this year.

[Scase]

His midrange would be massive if he could improve it and I worry he's focusing a little too much on 3's, but he's still young.

Not arguing sustainability, how much is real, small sample size etc but that's quite the jump, even in a small sample size.

Imo I think he's working on his shooting overall both three point shooting and at that range.

I think you are so focused on the three point shots and the misses because they stick out like a sore thumb that you don't look at what he's currently doing inside the three point line.

That 11.6% sample size amounts to 22 FGA, for a total of 12 made FGs, he misses 2 of those and he's at 45%, still a bump but we've got numbers so small that a single game can shoot him up to 70% or down to 20%, it's meaningless to draw conclusions one way or the other. The difference with this being that you have other full seasons of sample size showing that he's not likely that good all of a sudden.

If I see this 50 games into his season, I will be more inclined to be excited.

What is more of a concern, is that he is taking much fewer at the basket shots, and supplanting them with 3's. He's taking his highest % shots, and replacing them with his worst possible shot. That's just in general a bad idea, be it a 3, or in the paint etc.

Bad shots are bad shots, doesn't matter where from. Him taking 33% of all shots from 3, and only 11% from midrange is my issue. His worst seasons from midrange are comparable to his best seasons from 3. It's just a bad idea.

[Vampirate]

His midrange would be massive if he could improve it and I worry he's focusing a little too much on 3's, but he's still young.

Not arguing sustainability, how much is real, small sample size etc but that's quite the jump, even in a small sample size.

Imo I think he's working on his shooting overall both three point shooting and at that range.

I think you are so focused on the three point shots and the misses because they stick out like a sore thumb that you don't look at what he's currently doing inside the three point line.

That 11.6% sample size amounts to 22 FGA, for a total of 12 made FGs, he misses 2 of those and he's at 45%, still a bump but we've got numbers so small that a single game can shoot him up to 70% or down to 20%, it's meaningless to draw conclusions one way or the other. The difference with this being that you have other full seasons of sample size showing that he's not likely that good all of a sudden.

If I see this 50 games into his season, I will be more inclined to be excited.

What is more of a concern, is that he is taking much fewer at the basket shots, and supplanting them with 3's. He's taking his highest % shots, and replacing them with his worst possible shot. That's just in general a bad idea, be it a 3, or in the paint etc.

Bad shots are bad shots, doesn't matter where from. Him taking 33% of all shots from 3, and only 11% from midrange is my issue. His worst seasons from midrange are comparable to his best seasons from 3. It's just a bad idea.

Read the chart a bit better.

Last year 31.4% of his total shots are 3s.

This year thus far 32.8% of his total shot are 3s

That isn't really a big jump.

What is actually happening 'is he's taking more mid range shots'

Last year between 10-3P his mid range overall was 14.8% total.

This year between 10-3P his mid range overall was 20.1% total.

His 2P shot diet has been decreasing every year.

Year 1: .793
Year 2: .780
Year 3: .686
Year 4: .672

Remember year 3 was his real break out year.

Simply put he's taking fewer shots at the rim because he's become less and less reliant, but his efficiency overall is benefitting.

He's shooting .551 atm on 2 point shots.

Look, if you want him to take more mid range shots, it's going to come at the cost of other areas, notably at 0-3 feet.

[sidsid]

Barnes floor game looks amazing, but damn his offensive game is ugly. He cannot create easy looks for himself. I think Barnes can be the best player on a championship team, but he cannot and will not be your best offensive player on team with championship aspirations.

I would love to see Barnes paired with a young lillard/kyrie or brunson/garland to hopefully give barnes more space and easier looks.
Unfortunately that's not realistic and that's why the raptors should tank for egor/harper.

He has the strength, size and length to have an unstoppable spammable move, will he get that move is another question.

Yeah but he may not have the coordination, the shots he creates for himself are poor. Only the likes of Jokic, Giannis, Embiid can really play that and be efficient, because they are all-time great talents and B they godly FTR which Barnes doesn't.

His scoring game reminds me more of a human version of Webby/Siakam or Anthony Edwards without the 3-point volume. I don't think that will change. The only way to make him a positive scorer is to make him a secondary option to a true scorer who spaces the floor, I.e., Garland/Kyrie/Lillard/Curry.

Curry aside, you're mostly naming over-dribbling hoopers (including Brunson from earlier). What you want is shooting scorers who are savvy and relocate well in a motion offense like Curry, or Gradey types (I would focus on turning IQ into this too). Think McCain over Maxey.

Those types of players cause confusion in defenses which allows a playmaking-bias guy like Barnes to leverage that into his own offense while maximizing theirs.

Hoopers work well with Giannis because he doesn't see the floor at an elite level like Barnes does, but he's a monster roller in a 2 man game.

[Tripod]

Remember IQ had his hands on the ball a bunch last year working on his creation.

Then this year with Barnes and IQ out, RJ was doing it.

It's like we are creating a 3 headed monster where all can create off the dribble but all also scores in ways the other doesn't. Could set up for a really nice balance to keep teams guessing.

[TheProfessor]

He has the strength, size and length to have an unstoppable spammable move, will he get that move is another question.

Yeah but he may not have the coordination, the shots he creates for himself are poor. Only the likes of Jokic, Giannis, Embiid can really play that and be efficient, because they are all-time great talents and B they godly FTR which Barnes doesn't.

His scoring game reminds me more of a human version of Webby/Siakam or Anthony Edwards without the 3-point volume. I don't think that will change. The only way to make him a positive scorer is to make him a secondary option to a true scorer who spaces the floor, I.e., Garland/Kyrie/Lillard/Curry.

Curry aside, you're mostly naming over-dribbling hoopers (including Brunson from earlier). What you want is shooting scorers who are savvy and relocate well in a motion offense like Curry, or Gradey types (I would focus on turning IQ into this too). Think McCain over Maxey.

Those types of players cause confusion in defenses which allows a playmaking-bias guy like Barnes to leverage that into his own offense while maximizing theirs.

Hoopers work well with Giannis because he doesn't see the floor at an elite level like Barnes does, but he's a monster roller in a 2 man game.

No I know what I said, I don't want Scottie initiating the offense all time. You want a guard that can force a switch then give scottie the ball, that can run an offense and use scottie as a secondary play maker or scorer in motion. More importantly you want a player that starts passes the ball to scottie and relocates as 3 point threat.

Scottie will never be an efficient give him the ball and let him score type player like an SGA/Luka/Embiid/Tatum/Jokic nor should we expect him to. Scottie is a guy that you let drive the ball and then kick out for the pass or you create a motion/mismatch for scottie and let him score. You would use scottie the same way you just RJ, that's why they don't fit long term.

Tyrese doesn't work because he isn't a strong enough shooter off the bounce, and I see Barnes similar to Giannis, a less athletic, less dominant version of Giannis with better passing. Scottie is only playing this because of the lack of spacing/talent on the raptors, you arent winning a ring like this.