Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition

[Norseman79]

So pretend you are sending out Miller and Randle and you are getting back JV from the Wizards to play backup C and some other player from a third team to play backup PF. Miller is the bait to get the Wizards to give up JV and maybe take Randle, but what do the Wizards give to get us a backup PF, and who is that PF? Any ideas?

The minimum they would give us back for that trade to work would include kuzma. Now if you're suggesting rerouting kuzma to another team for a different power forward, that's cool. But if the wizards take Randle, Poole, Kuzma, Brogdon are the only ones possible to make cap fit that they would give up. Plus, no incentive to give up Brogdon, he is expiring

[Norseman79]

Duran cannot play with Reed or Gobert. One injury to Naz and the season is basically over. Duran is also not that good. Cade is also not moving for that package. I would need to do a deep dive but basically you want to turn Randle into a backup PF and backup C. One of whom needs to be able to space the floor.

Jaden can't play the 4?

1. Not really no. He is just too small to defend anyone with a big body.

2. Jaden at the 4 only helps if Jaden can hit the deep ball more consistently. His offensive regression is forcing talk of starting NAW over him.

3. We saw how well non shooters playing together worked last year. When Karl went down we had Naz. You need floor spacing bigs to play with Rudy or you risk an offensive collapse.

He is referring to Duren at the four not McDaniels.

[Norseman79]

Wash in: Randle, Miller, Richardson
Out: JV, Kuzma

Miami in: Kuzma
Out: Robinson, Richardson, Jovic

Min out: Randle, Miller
In: JV, Robinson, Jovic

PG - Conley Jr, Dilly
SG - Ant, NAW, DD
SF - McDaniels, Robinson, Minott
PF - Naz, Jovic
C - Rudy, JV

How's that? I think point guard sucks, but is what it is

[BlacJacMac]

Jaden can't play the 4?

1. Not really no. He is just too small to defend anyone with a big body.

2. Jaden at the 4 only helps if Jaden can hit the deep ball more consistently. His offensive regression is forcing talk of starting NAW over him.

3. We saw how well non shooters playing together worked last year. When Karl went down we had Naz. You need floor spacing bigs to play with Rudy or you risk an offensive collapse.

He is referring to Duren at the four not McDaniels.

I don't think he is.

First, its Jalen Duren.

Second, Duren's range extends out to no more than 10'.

Duren is a really intriguing prospect, but he's 100% a center.

As far as McDaniels at the 4, a couple years ago he put together an incredible defensive stretch of games where he was, by a mile, our best defender against Luka, Kawhi and Zion over like a 7 day period. I especially remember Zion just ragdolling Vando up and down the court, and we put Jaden in for him and he frustrated the hell out of him. I wouldn't mind seeing that version of McDaniels again. Although his rebounding would absolutely toast us.

[Norseman79]

1. Not really no. He is just too small to defend anyone with a big body.

2. Jaden at the 4 only helps if Jaden can hit the deep ball more consistently. His offensive regression is forcing talk of starting NAW over him.

3. We saw how well non shooters playing together worked last year. When Karl went down we had Naz. You need floor spacing bigs to play with Rudy or you risk an offensive collapse.

He is referring to Duren at the four not McDaniels.

I don't think he is.

First, its Jalen Duren.

Second, Duren's range extends out to no more than 10'.

Duren is a really intriguing prospect, but he's 100% a center.

As far as McDaniels at the 4, a couple years ago he put together an incredible defensive stretch of games where he was, by a mile, our best defender against Luka, Kawhi and Zion over like a 7 day period. I especially remember Zion just ragdolling Vando up and down the court, and we put Jaden in for him and he frustrated the hell out of him. I wouldn't mind seeing that version of McDaniels again. Although his rebounding would absolutely toast us.

If you go back, he proposed a trade to land Duren from Detroit....he called him Duran, in the proposal he listed him as the backup four and five.

[Norseman79]

1. Not really no. He is just too small to defend anyone with a big body.

2. Jaden at the 4 only helps if Jaden can hit the deep ball more consistently. His offensive regression is forcing talk of starting NAW over him.

3. We saw how well non shooters playing together worked last year. When Karl went down we had Naz. You need floor spacing bigs to play with Rudy or you risk an offensive collapse.

He is referring to Duren at the four not McDaniels.

I don't think he is.

First, its Jalen Duren.

Second, Duren's range extends out to no more than 10'.

Duren is a really intriguing prospect, but he's 100% a center.

As far as McDaniels at the 4, a couple years ago he put together an incredible defensive stretch of games where he was, by a mile, our best defender against Luka, Kawhi and Zion over like a 7 day period. I especially remember Zion just ragdolling Vando up and down the court, and we put Jaden in for him and he frustrated the hell out of him. I wouldn't mind seeing that version of McDaniels again. Although his rebounding would absolutely toast us.

Also, I am aware who Jalen Duren is, I wanted to draft him.

[BlacJacMac]

He is referring to Duren at the four not McDaniels.

I don't think he is.

First, its Jalen Duren.

Second, Duren's range extends out to no more than 10'.

Duren is a really intriguing prospect, but he's 100% a center.

As far as McDaniels at the 4, a couple years ago he put together an incredible defensive stretch of games where he was, by a mile, our best defender against Luka, Kawhi and Zion over like a 7 day period. I especially remember Zion just ragdolling Vando up and down the court, and we put Jaden in for him and he frustrated the hell out of him. I wouldn't mind seeing that version of McDaniels again. Although his rebounding would absolutely toast us.

If you go back, he proposed a trade to land Duren from Detroit....he called him Duran, in the proposal he listed him as the backup four and five.

I did go back to the relevant posts. WfL says we don't have a backup 4 if Naz goes down and that Duren can't play with Rudy. Then cmoss says "Jaden can't play the 4?" and then W4L explains why McDaniels can't play the 4.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe cmoss was suggesting Duren can play PF. He never has in his career, while McDaniels certainly has.

[cmoss84]

Yeah was talking Jaden McDaniels at the 4...sorry for the confusion! Thought Duren would be perfect behind Rudy. Mentor and minutes wise. MAYBE he (Duren) could squeeze in a few minutes at the 4, but like everyone mentioned, gonna be a center.

[Norseman79]

I don't think he is.

First, its Jalen Duren.

Second, Duren's range extends out to no more than 10'.

Duren is a really intriguing prospect, but he's 100% a center.

As far as McDaniels at the 4, a couple years ago he put together an incredible defensive stretch of games where he was, by a mile, our best defender against Luka, Kawhi and Zion over like a 7 day period. I especially remember Zion just ragdolling Vando up and down the court, and we put Jaden in for him and he frustrated the hell out of him. I wouldn't mind seeing that version of McDaniels again. Although his rebounding would absolutely toast us.

If you go back, he proposed a trade to land Duren from Detroit....he called him Duran, in the proposal he listed him as the backup four and five.

I did go back to the relevant posts. WfL says we don't have a backup 4 if Naz goes down and that Duren can't play with Rudy. Then cmoss says "Jaden can't play the 4?" and then W4L explains why McDaniels can't play the 4.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe cmoss was suggesting Duren can play PF. He never has in his career, while McDaniels certainly has.

My apologies for misreading, I was wrong on that

[winforlose]

If you go back, he proposed a trade to land Duren from Detroit....he called him Duran, in the proposal he listed him as the backup four and five.

I did go back to the relevant posts. WfL says we don't have a backup 4 if Naz goes down and that Duren can't play with Rudy. Then cmoss says "Jaden can't play the 4?" and then W4L explains why McDaniels can't play the 4.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe cmoss was suggesting Duren can play PF. He never has in his career, while McDaniels certainly has.

My apologies for misreading, I was wrong on that

No worries, it happens. God knows I have made worse misreads

[Norseman79]

Who brings back the better trade.....NAW or DD?

[winforlose]

Who brings back the better trade.....NAW or DD?

NAW is the better player, DDV has a 3 year deal at one of of the best values in the league. DDV has more because he has more control and at a great price point.

[Norseman79]

Who brings back the better trade.....NAW or DD?

NAW is the better player, DDV has a 3 year deal at one of of the best values in the league. DDV has more because he has more control and at a great price point.

So, if DD can get more....how much more?

[winforlose]

Who brings back the better trade.....NAW or DD?

NAW is the better player, DDV has a 3 year deal at one of of the best values in the league. DDV has more because he has more control and at a great price point.

So, if DD can get more....how much more?

TC literally cannot trade DD. The issue I tried to point out above (but perhaps should have been more clear,) is that any trade this year involving Randle or DDV will get attributed to the KAT trade. For instance if you trade DDV for player X, now you traded KAT for Randle, a conditional first, and player X. Add in the 2nd apron restrictions, and any player TC brings back for DDV will make him look worse. The strong likelihood is TC is leaving at the end of this season. He will not be hirable if he breaks this team any further on the way out. Denver is breaking at the same time, which shows what TC builds will thrive in the short term and by will crumble by the time TC leaves. TC can trade Randle because Randle wasn’t the primary target of the KAT trade, DDV was. Any trade that moves DDV hurts TC’s career. Thus, we need to talk about Randle, NAW, and the young guys as trade pieces while ignoring DDV.

[Klomp]

Who brings back the better trade.....NAW or DD?

NAW is the better player, DDV has a 3 year deal at one of of the best values in the league. DDV has more because he has more control and at a great price point.

I would also add that Donte has been a starter for multiple playoff teams. He as started 18 career playoff games, across three franchises. Good, stable franchises too. I'm not talking about Raul Neto starting playoff games for the Wizards here.

Nickeil has been a nice hidden treasure, but he's still our little secret in a lot of ways.

[Norseman79]

NAW is also expiring, that hurts his value.

What makes TC look worse the initial trade, or not pivoting to make a move more beneficial to the team than hurting his pride?

This is also the assumption that trading KAT was TC's idea and not ownership.

[winforlose]

NAW is also expiring, that hurts his value.

What makes TC look worse the initial trade, or not pivoting to make a move more beneficial to the team than hurting his pride?

This is also the assumption that trading KAT was TC's idea and not ownership.

I cannot remember where I heard this, I think it was pod, but I consume a lot of sports media and I just don’t know. But in any case I remember hearing that the Knicks tried to get a KAT trade done much earlier. The Wolves flat out refused to entertain any offer excluding DDV. This is why the trade happened so late in the calendar and so close to camp starting. When DDV was put on the table the deal was forged. This means that Randle was more or less filler. You can say that TC can improve it, but DDV makes around 12 mil. That means you need a player with similar year of control and similar talent for under 12 million. Worse, if a trade partner is over the 1st apron, they cannot take more money back, so the math is even more complicated. TC needed to resign if this trade wasn’t his. He endorsed it by not taking the contract out and going elsewhere. Any trade that involves any asset acquired for KAT is gonna be scrutinized within the KAT trade lense, and further damage an already banged up TC.

[Klomp]

I cannot remember where I heard this, I think it was pod, but I consume a lot of sports media and I just don’t know. But in any case I remember hearing that the Knicks tried to get a KAT trade done much earlier. The Wolves flat out refused to entertain any offer excluding DDV. This is why the trade happened so late in the calendar and so close to camp starting. When DDV was put on the table the deal was forged. This means that Randle was more or less filler.

Basically, yes. Knicks were trying hard to get Tim to accept Randle and Robinson for Towns. Obviously, that was declined on the spot.

When New York put DiVincenzo in the deal over Mitchell Robinson, the Wolves agreed to the deal.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5814638/2024/10/03/timberwolves-contenders-trading-karl-anthony-towns/

[winforlose]

I cannot remember where I heard this, I think it was pod, but I consume a lot of sports media and I just don’t know. But in any case I remember hearing that the Knicks tried to get a KAT trade done much earlier. The Wolves flat out refused to entertain any offer excluding DDV. This is why the trade happened so late in the calendar and so close to camp starting. When DDV was put on the table the deal was forged. This means that Randle was more or less filler.

Basically, yes. Knicks were trying hard to get Tim to accept Randle and Robinson for Towns. Obviously, that was declined on the spot.

When New York put DiVincenzo in the deal over Mitchell Robinson, the Wolves agreed to the deal.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5814638/2024/10/03/timberwolves-contenders-trading-karl-anthony-towns/

We should have asked for Robinson, plus McBride and more. KAT was far and away the best player in that trade, and the money saved was mostly next year and the year after. It was terribly done by TC.

[Klomp]

I brought up Jaden in another thread. First off, I absolutely concede that this trade does not help the longterm ceiling of the franchise, so I highly doubt it happens. But would it help the team's floor and bolster the team as a whole?

Jaden McDaniels ($23,017,242) for Terance Mann ($11,423,077) and Derrick Jones Jr. ($9,523,810)

Jones is shooting 18-35 (.514) from the corners in 2024-25 (which I'll admit is a big step forward for him after shooting 50-148 (.338) last season). And despite Mann shooting just 34.1% for the season on 3-pointers, he is 12-24 (.500) from the corners and was 43-110 (.391) last season in the corners.

Meanwhile, McDaniels is shooting 12-42 (.286) from the corners, in an offense that regularly creates these shot opportunities.