Wolves/Jazz/Pels

[winforlose]

I think it’s significant that while we debate on the internet how valuable Zion is, over in real life Shams is reporting that the Pelicans are making a public statement that they don’t want to waive the guy.

Best way to for any FO runner to nuke their career.

1. Waive a high potential player because they cannot stay healthy.

2. Continue to suck without said high potential player

3. High potential player goes somewhere else and gets healthy, then plays well for their second team.

We have seen this movie before. You don’t give Zion away unless you want to risk a career change. Maybe he could try taxidermy

[Daddy 801]

The only I thing I disagree with is your incentive post. If you truly believe that John Collins and Walker Kessler are the missing pieces that will save Minnesota, then you are 100% correct. That said, I don’t see how you get there. Kessler is a project, and Collins is not exactly world beating. I would be more inclined to get Randle off of Minnesota for fear he does start to play defense and figure out the offense and helps Minnesota do better in the next few years.

To everyone else, I agree. This is a very low sell on Zion, and the season is already pretty far off the rails. The only reason I suggested it is because whoever takes Zion is doing so with the hope they can fix him. A healthy Zion and Markkanen plus another high draft pick and some of the young guys they are developing is interesting. I don’t think the Pels just cut out the Wolves because Randle is better than the package coming to MN, it just happens to fit us better than Randle. Either way, I don’t see the Pels doing it. That is why the trade was more bare bones needing pieces to make it make sense. Thanks for the good feedback

Kessler really is not a project and Collins has played like the second coming of Christ this season (I pray we sell high on him - and by that I mean take literally any expiring contract and maybe even grab a 2nd rounder or two). Kessler is averaging 11p/10r/3b on 73% shooting, he's physically overwhelming for other teams, and this includes a game in the sample where his minutes were cut short by injury. I'm betting he finishes the season around 12/10/2.5b on 68%+ shooting. He's very, very good.

John Collins going for an expiring is a second comings worth of value? I am baffled by this. To assume that any team is going to give value for Collins or see him as anything more than salary matching is IMO wishful thinking. That said, my opinion could be wrong.

Kessler has had an up and down career, and having good numbers on a 4 and 17 team makes me wonder what his cleaning the glass numbers are. Are some of these stats coming when games are out of reach? I am honestly asking as I don’t follow the Jazz. To say he is playing well enough to go from project to valuable or even blue chip is an opinion, but a fair one. That said, if other teams don’t share the opinion then you guys will keep him, and maintain the tank. I just wonder at what point the tank ends and you actually try to win something. You traded your stars away in 22/23 and it is 24/25 and outside of Markkanen you don’t seem any closer. But again I don’t follow the Jazz so maybe I am missing things.

This was just posted about Collins this season. Just to give some context on his level of play this season.

John Collins:

— 17.8 PPG
— 8.7 RPG
— 1.2 SPG
— 53/40/91% (!!)
— Leading Jazz in points
— Leading Jazz in rebounds
— Leading Jazz in steals

The only player with 150+ points on 50/40/90% shooting this season.

Regarding Kessler. He is starting and primarily playing against other starters. As of now I would say last season was the fluke and this is who he is. He’s going to be a 10-14 ppg, 8-12 rpg, 2-3 assists, and give us above average to semi elite defense depending on his matchups. He easily could be on the Jazz when they actually start competing and for years to come barring injury.

As for the Jazz…they just screwed up not tanking enough the seasons after they traded Don and Rudy. Part of that is Hardy is a good coach at adapting. And the other part is Ainge thought he could go “big fish hunting” this offseason. The biggest mistake Ainge has made is not tanking fast enough. Most of us Jazz fans were saying it was an issue while it was happening. We know superstars aren’t coming here in general but it seems Ainge thought he could treat Utah like Boston. Ain’t gonna happen. So your assessment that we aren’t any closer than two years I would basically agree with. Of the 7 young guys we are developing the only one I feel confident will be on the team (unless a team “overpays”) when the Jazz are ready to compete is Kessler. Which is why I would want an overpay. Besides Kessler the only other two guys who have proven could be on a good team is Sexton and Collins. And I don’t think they will be on the team unless they tell Ainge they love Utah and want to stick around. Collins and Sexton are perfect 6th/7th men and would be amazing against second units on a winning squad. And they can fill in as a starter when injuries arise. So if we don’t get value I wouldn’t mind them sticking around. But we need to lose next season so trading them also makes a lot of sense.

The Jazz basically suck because we don’t have a bonafide floor general. Although the last ten games Keyonte has played much, much better than the start of the season. If he can keep developing and get his turnovers under control and get away from the midrange, he will be good. As of now…not enough sample size of him doing the right things to think we have our starting PG for the future.

The Jazz need to tank this season and next season and then push their chips in for a superstar at the trade deadline next season or after the season. That would be the fastest realistic timeline to build a competitive team. And we have to hope of the 5-6 players we draft the next two years we can get two star-ish level players with one of them with the potential to being a top 15 player at some point in their career. If not…it’s gonna be a long time until the Jazz do much and we could be bottom five for 4-5 more years.

[dcstanley]

As a Jazz fan and if I was the GM I would pass. I’d give up draft capital for Zion, but I’d rather keep Kessler than get Zion who is always injured and is paid a ton.

Maybe include another team and Utah gets back draft capital?

Also, the Jazz have no incentive to help the wolves turn their season around. Anything short of Ant coming back to Utah is reason to avoid helping Minnesota. Only thing I can think that Minnesota could do to sweeten this deal if they really wanted was to take the protections off the future pick Utah owns from Minnesota. Maybe that would be enough to entice Danny. Probably not though.

Clearly a healthy Zion is worth more than I am giving him credit for. But I just don’t trust he will ever be healthy again. Which is why I wouldn’t trade Kessler for him. I’d trade a combination of Collins and Clarkson who aren’t in our long term plans and a small amount of draft capital to take the risk. But Kessler is too important to the Jazz. Not saying others should value Kessler the way I do, but a “proven” young player is what the Jazz need. If Zion didn’t get healthy this would set the Jazz back even farther.

The only I thing I disagree with is your incentive post. If you truly believe that John Collins and Walker Kessler are the missing pieces that will save Minnesota, then you are 100% correct. That said, I don’t see how you get there. Kessler is a project, and Collins is not exactly world beating. I would be more inclined to get Randle off of Minnesota for fear he does start to play defense and figure out the offense and helps Minnesota do better in the next few years.

To everyone else, I agree. This is a very low sell on Zion, and the season is already pretty far off the rails. The only reason I suggested it is because whoever takes Zion is doing so with the hope they can fix him. A healthy Zion and Markkanen plus another high draft pick and some of the young guys they are developing is interesting. I don’t think the Pels just cut out the Wolves because Randle is better than the package coming to MN, it just happens to fit us better than Randle. Either way, I don’t see the Pels doing it. That is why the trade was more bare bones needing pieces to make it make sense. Thanks for the good feedback

Kessler really is not a project and Collins has played like the second coming of Christ this season (I pray we sell high on him - and by that I mean take literally any expiring contract and maybe even grab a 2nd rounder or two). Kessler is averaging 11p/10r/3b on 73% shooting, he's physically overwhelming for other teams, and this includes a game in the sample where his minutes were cut short by injury. I'm betting he finishes the season around 12/10/2.5b on 68%+ shooting. He's very, very good.

LAL in: John Collins, Walker Kessler, Colin Sexton
UTA in: D'angelo Russell, Jalen Hood-Schifino, Rui Hachimura, Max Christie, Max Lewis, unprotect 2027 first, 2029 unprotected first

Does this interest you? Rui and Christie are only non-expiring but Christie is only 21, on a decent contract, and could become a decent starter by the end of the contract.

[babyjax13]

The only I thing I disagree with is your incentive post. If you truly believe that John Collins and Walker Kessler are the missing pieces that will save Minnesota, then you are 100% correct. That said, I don’t see how you get there. Kessler is a project, and Collins is not exactly world beating. I would be more inclined to get Randle off of Minnesota for fear he does start to play defense and figure out the offense and helps Minnesota do better in the next few years.

To everyone else, I agree. This is a very low sell on Zion, and the season is already pretty far off the rails. The only reason I suggested it is because whoever takes Zion is doing so with the hope they can fix him. A healthy Zion and Markkanen plus another high draft pick and some of the young guys they are developing is interesting. I don’t think the Pels just cut out the Wolves because Randle is better than the package coming to MN, it just happens to fit us better than Randle. Either way, I don’t see the Pels doing it. That is why the trade was more bare bones needing pieces to make it make sense. Thanks for the good feedback

Kessler really is not a project and Collins has played like the second coming of Christ this season (I pray we sell high on him - and by that I mean take literally any expiring contract and maybe even grab a 2nd rounder or two). Kessler is averaging 11p/10r/3b on 73% shooting, he's physically overwhelming for other teams, and this includes a game in the sample where his minutes were cut short by injury. I'm betting he finishes the season around 12/10/2.5b on 68%+ shooting. He's very, very good.

LAL in: John Collins, Walker Kessler, Colin Sexton
UTA in: D'angelo Russell, Jalen Hood-Schifino, Rui Hachimura, Max Christie, Max Lewis, unprotect 2027 first, 2029 unprotected first

Does this interest you? Rui and Christie are only non-expiring but Christie is only 21, on a decent contract, and could become a decent starter by the end of the contract.

No, not really, but I don't think it is some terrible offer considering the upside of the picks.

[Daddy 801]

The only I thing I disagree with is your incentive post. If you truly believe that John Collins and Walker Kessler are the missing pieces that will save Minnesota, then you are 100% correct. That said, I don’t see how you get there. Kessler is a project, and Collins is not exactly world beating. I would be more inclined to get Randle off of Minnesota for fear he does start to play defense and figure out the offense and helps Minnesota do better in the next few years.

To everyone else, I agree. This is a very low sell on Zion, and the season is already pretty far off the rails. The only reason I suggested it is because whoever takes Zion is doing so with the hope they can fix him. A healthy Zion and Markkanen plus another high draft pick and some of the young guys they are developing is interesting. I don’t think the Pels just cut out the Wolves because Randle is better than the package coming to MN, it just happens to fit us better than Randle. Either way, I don’t see the Pels doing it. That is why the trade was more bare bones needing pieces to make it make sense. Thanks for the good feedback

Kessler really is not a project and Collins has played like the second coming of Christ this season (I pray we sell high on him - and by that I mean take literally any expiring contract and maybe even grab a 2nd rounder or two). Kessler is averaging 11p/10r/3b on 73% shooting, he's physically overwhelming for other teams, and this includes a game in the sample where his minutes were cut short by injury. I'm betting he finishes the season around 12/10/2.5b on 68%+ shooting. He's very, very good.

LAL in: John Collins, Walker Kessler, Colin Sexton
UTA in: D'angelo Russell, Jalen Hood-Schifino, Rui Hachimura, Max Christie, Max Lewis, unprotect 2027 first, 2029 unprotected first

Does this interest you? Rui and Christie are only non-expiring but Christie is only 21, on a decent contract, and could become a decent starter by the end of the contract.

Think we can do better splitting up those three players and trading them individually. So not really interested. And of all teams not to be worried about protections it’s the Lakers. If that is the season LeBron comes off the books other free agents will want to go play in LA with AD. If it’s LeBrons last season they will be just good enough to avoid those protections. Obviously I could be wrong, that’s just like my opinion man.

[babyjax13]

Kessler really is not a project and Collins has played like the second coming of Christ this season (I pray we sell high on him - and by that I mean take literally any expiring contract and maybe even grab a 2nd rounder or two). Kessler is averaging 11p/10r/3b on 73% shooting, he's physically overwhelming for other teams, and this includes a game in the sample where his minutes were cut short by injury. I'm betting he finishes the season around 12/10/2.5b on 68%+ shooting. He's very, very good.

John Collins going for an expiring is a second comings worth of value? I am baffled by this. To assume that any team is going to give value for Collins or see him as anything more than salary matching is IMO wishful thinking. That said, my opinion could be wrong.

Kessler has had an up and down career, and having good numbers on a 4 and 17 team makes me wonder what his cleaning the glass numbers are. Are some of these stats coming when games are out of reach? I am honestly asking as I don’t follow the Jazz. To say he is playing well enough to go from project to valuable or even blue chip is an opinion, but a fair one. That said, if other teams don’t share the opinion then you guys will keep him, and maintain the tank. I just wonder at what point the tank ends and you actually try to win something. You traded your stars away in 22/23 and it is 24/25 and outside of Markkanen you don’t seem any closer. But again I don’t follow the Jazz so maybe I am missing things.

This was just posted about Collins this season. Just to give some context on his level of play this season.

John Collins:

— 17.8 PPG
— 8.7 RPG
— 1.2 SPG
— 53/40/91% (!!)
— Leading Jazz in points
— Leading Jazz in rebounds
— Leading Jazz in steals

The only player with 150+ points on 50/40/90% shooting this season.

Regarding Kessler. He is starting and primarily playing against other starters. As of now I would say last season was the fluke and this is who he is. He’s going to be a 10-14 ppg, 8-12 rpg, 2-3 assists, and give us above average to semi elite defense depending on his matchups. He easily could be on the Jazz when they actually start competing and for years to come barring injury.

As for the Jazz…they just screwed up not tanking enough the seasons after they traded Don and Rudy. Part of that is Hardy is a good coach at adapting. And the other part is Ainge thought he could go “big fish hunting” this offseason. The biggest mistake Ainge has made is not tanking fast enough. Most of us Jazz fans were saying it was an issue while it was happening. We know superstars aren’t coming here in general but it seems Ainge thought he could treat Utah like Boston. Ain’t gonna happen. So your assessment that we aren’t any closer than two years I would basically agree with. Of the 7 young guys we are developing the only one I feel confident will be on the team (unless a team “overpays”) when the Jazz are ready to compete is Kessler. Which is why I would want an overpay. Besides Kessler the only other two guys who have proven could be on a good team is Sexton and Collins. And I don’t think they will be on the team unless they tell Ainge they love Utah and want to stick around. Collins and Sexton are perfect 6th/7th men and would be amazing against second units on a winning squad. And they can fill in as a starter when injuries arise. So if we don’t get value I wouldn’t mind them sticking around. But we need to lose next season so trading them also makes a lot of sense.

The Jazz basically suck because we don’t have a bonafide floor general. Although the last ten games Keyonte has played much, much better than the start of the season. If he can keep developing and get his turnovers under control and get away from the midrange, he will be good. As of now…not enough sample size of him doing the right things to think we have our starting PG for the future.

The Jazz need to tank this season and next season and then push their chips in for a superstar at the trade deadline next season or after the season. That would be the fastest realistic timeline to build a competitive team. And we have to hope of the 5-6 players we draft the next two years we can get two star-ish level players with one of them with the potential to being a top 15 player at some point in their career. If not…it’s gonna be a long time until the Jazz do much and we could be bottom five for 4-5 more years.

I think this is the best diagnosis of Ainge's tenure I have seen.

[schaffy]

I think it’s significant that while we debate on the internet how valuable Zion is, over in real life Shams is reporting that the Pelicans are making a public statement that they don’t want to waive the guy.

FWIW, if the wiretap article is summarizing what Shams said on McAfee's show, the context kinda matters as everyone was ranting about Zion never being healthy and that maybe NO just couldn't figure it out or needed to be done with this and someone asked specifically could the Pelicans get out of Zion's deal this summer and just be done with it. And Shams answered that while they could, they aren't looking to do that in any way and are trying to get him healthy and get things right around him. In the context it was presented, I'm not sure thats actually reporting anything vs just answering and then shutting down a short-sighted question.

[winforlose]

I think it’s significant that while we debate on the internet how valuable Zion is, over in real life Shams is reporting that the Pelicans are making a public statement that they don’t want to waive the guy.

FWIW, if the wiretap article is summarizing what Shams said on McAfee's show, the context kinda matters as everyone was ranting about Zion never being healthy and that maybe NO just couldn't figure it out or needed to be done with this and someone asked specifically could the Pelicans get out of Zion's deal this summer and just be done with it. And Shams answered that while they could, they aren't looking to do that in any way and are trying to get him healthy and get things right around him. In the context it was presented, I'm not sure thats actually reporting anything vs just answering and then shutting down a short-sighted question.

This, plus dropping a number 1 overall pick to save salary is an incredible blow to the franchise. At least one or two teams would give something in trade for the hopes of getting him healthy and productive.

[Cappy_Smurf]

Lmao at Kessler being called a project. I mean, I can't really blame anyone for not watching the Jazz this year, so I guess you can't really expect anyone to know what's going on with their players.

Having said that, Utah doesn't want any part of a long term rebuild. Lauri and Kessler are players they want to keep so they have something to build on if they strike gold in the lottery. Zion is a walking injury, and that's on a good day because he doesn't need the wheelchair.

[winforlose]

Lmao at Kessler being called a project. I mean, I can't really blame anyone for not watching the Jazz this year, so I guess you can't really expect anyone to know what's going on with their players.

Having said that, Utah doesn't want any part of a long term rebuild. Lauri and Kessler are players they want to keep so they have something to build on if they strike gold in the lottery. Zion is a walking injury, and that's on a good day because he doesn't need the wheelchair.

Good year, plus bad year, plus injury concerns early in his career and limitations to his game (lack of deep ball, lack of positional versatility, ect…,) equals project. Now maybe he has a solid year and changes that description. But I don’t think my comment is that outrageous after only 20% of the season. Get to 50-60% with similar numbers and I will eat all the crow you want.

[JJ_PR]

I think the Pels would prefer Kessler. They've had a hole at Center for many years now.

[Daddy 801]

Lmao at Kessler being called a project. I mean, I can't really blame anyone for not watching the Jazz this year, so I guess you can't really expect anyone to know what's going on with their players.

Having said that, Utah doesn't want any part of a long term rebuild. Lauri and Kessler are players they want to keep so they have something to build on if they strike gold in the lottery. Zion is a walking injury, and that's on a good day because he doesn't need the wheelchair.

Good year, plus bad year, plus injury concerns early in his career and limitations to his game (lack of deep ball, lack of positional versatility, ect…,) equals project. Now maybe he has a solid year and changes that description. But I don’t think my comment is that outrageous after only 20% of the season. Get to 50-60% with similar numbers and I will eat all the crow you want.

That’s the beauty of being a “Jazz GM” on this forum. We get to value our guys how we value them and our situation, and you get to value your guys and your situation.

And I can tell you as a Jazz fan and knowing how we value Kessler we don’t value him like you value him.

Value is subjective. We aren’t selling low on him and have zero reason to do so. We actually have a negative incentive to do so considering our situation. If you think our ask is an overpay, don’t make a trade.

I think Ainge feels the same way. Everyone thinks taking teams should just offload prospects to continue tanking. But that’s not how a tanking team thinks. Every team has 1-3 decent players and they have no incentive to trade those players (especially young rookie scale contract players) without that team getting what they want for said player. No team can just keep giving away players for more picks. There is a point a team values a player more than other teams value that player. And Kessler is that for the Jazz. We think he is proven. And we have no incentive to trade him. And every game he keeps proving our instincts right. We could be wrong…but I don’t think we are. We have a large enough sample size to evaluate him. We’re good keeping him unless a team trades what we want.

And every other GM on here can have the same opinion of a player on their team. Doesn’t mean I am right, or someone else “overvaluing” their player is right. It just means giving the current situation of the team that the value the GM gives a certain player is the value that is needed to get that player. Again….value is subjective and also value is not without considering the new CBA, cap space, knowing how desperate a team is to compete, knowing that a team has to get a player because they lack asserts, etc.

Kessler isn’t being traded until the Jazz get what they want. Ainge made that clear in the offseason and he was right to hold the line. Until the Jazz get more value relative to losing Kessler…no trade will happen.