Can we safely say Jokic is the best offensive player ever?

[slick_watts]

i think there's a strong objective case for jokic, but obviously, qualitative analysis will produce varying results across eras. jokic's peak offensively is getting gnarly though, five years now. he's been doing this awhile.

[GiannisAnte34]

Nah if you insert MJ into this era he would be an absolute terror

[falcolombardi]

I still don't get how you came to that conclusion. I do get the offense relative to the league. How would you come up with that? If you are talking about rOrtg, then I would think the only way it would apply for LeBron would be in 16 and 17, right? If that's the case, why not include Curry too? In 17, it was a +7.7 rOrtg above league average in the POs. Magic in 87 was a +7.8 rOrtg above league average in the POs. I wouldn't consider it to be that much better to not include in the conversation. Unless you may not count the 17 due to KD stacking the deck, but that would open up another can of worms with superteams. LeBron with the Cavs in 16 and 17 went crazy in the POs. +8.8 and +9 respectively.

Mostly the fact that curry + durant didnt lead to better playoffs offense (worse, in fact taking 2 healthy years for each pair) that lebron + kyrie is a point in lebron favor.

Is a small difference but noteworthy since the criticisms often in guys like lebron (or paul, or magic, or nash) in some comparisions with guys like curry (or jordan, or bird, or jokic, you get the idea) is the idea/theory that the latter give a higher ceiling to a offense due to being less ball dominant and/or better shooters (applies less so to nash*)

Which is why i kinda like to hold that reasoning of "ceiling" accountable when debating atg's

For my preference i think the quantity of elite offenses year in ans year out (sometimes in completely different rosters and even styles of play league wise) of guys like lebron are a stronger argument but people usually laser focus on "peaks" so i debate it on that ground

Lebron and Kyrie were also routinely playing against a weakass east. Who was the best team they played against during those championship years? The DeRozan Raptors.

Those thinghs are not mutually exclusive

15-17 was a weak east but it was fine defensively and relative offensive rating is adusted to how good the rival was in regular season anyway so beating on bad teams doesnt inflate results quite as much

If you wanted to see lebron great team results vs great defenses you have ,quite literally, almost the rest of his career too, from like 2008 to 2015 in particular it was a pretty historically tough defensive murderers row to deal with

[DCasey91]

Yep Pistons, Pacers and then Celtics (Peaked All Time High) were legit as can get on that end.

But we've seen what Jokc can do to a number 1# defensive team. Just needs more of it

Thing is people have short memories/recency bias or just plain bias and worst hate.

Jokic is on the level or above with any of the best offensive players of all time

[Tor_Raps]

Such a scrub... only had 27/20/11 today lol

[ScrantonBulls]

Nah if you insert MJ into this era he would be an absolute terror

Imagine thinking it was difficult to score in the NBA in the 80s. Defense was so bad that they nearly scored as many points as today without shooting 3s.

Average PPG by a team between 1984 and 1989 (Jordan 80s years): 109.7 PPG
Average PPG by a team in 2024-25: 112.8

A whopping 3 point difference. But somehow MJ terrorizes this league like never before Did you ever watch any 80s basketball bruh?

[AleksandarN]

Read on Twitter

[GiannisAnte34]

Nah if you insert MJ into this era he would be an absolute terror

Imagine thinking it was difficult to score in the NBA in the 80s. Defense was so bad that they nearly scored as many points as today without shooting 3s.

Average PPG by a team between 1984 and 1989 (Jordan 80s years): 109.7 PPG
Average PPG by a team in 2024-25: 112.8

A whopping 3 point difference. But somehow MJ terrorizes this league like never before Did you ever watch any 80s basketball bruh?

Imagine thinking a chubby white boy like Luka can score 32ppg in this era but someone with Jordan’s insane speed and athleticism wouldn’t be able to add a 3 pt shot

Jordan would average at least 37ppg

[Patsfan1081]

You could make an argument for “well rounded.” When I think of best offensive player of all time however the players that pop up are the greatest all time at creating their own shot/offense. Someone that dominates scoring wise, especially on the biggest stage.

[Patsfan1081]

Nah if you insert MJ into this era he would be an absolute terror

Imagine thinking it was difficult to score in the NBA in the 80s. Defense was so bad that they nearly scored as many points as today without shooting 3s.

Average PPG by a team between 1984 and 1989 (Jordan 80s years): 109.7 PPG
Average PPG by a team in 2024-25: 112.8

A whopping 3 point difference. But somehow MJ terrorizes this league like never before Did you ever watch any 80s basketball bruh?

Imagine thinking a chubby white boy like Luka can score 32ppg in this era but someone with Jordan’s insane speed and athleticism wouldn’t be able to add a 3 pt shot

Jordan would average at least 37ppg

“Defense was so bad” yet players were actually allowed to play it. Not only does Jordan average 37, he would be drawing fouls at a record pace. Why pretend the greatest athletes/players wouldn’t be able to adapt to today’s game?

[tmorgan]

Jordan was nowhere near as good an offensive player as the masses seem to think. And likely a better defender than even his stellar rep.

If you want to assume he’s adapt his game and become a great distance shooter today, feel free, but remember, at the end off the day, you’re just guessing.

He might indeed average 37 ppg. On 55-58% TS. Which, while impressive, isn’t exactly winning basketball today. He’d still be one of, if not THE, best players in basketball, but this constant exaggeration of what he actually did gets tiresome.

[DCasey91]

Jordan is the best scorer of all time objectively and what's more important he's the best weighted scorer and its not even close

Weighted meaning the first bucket of the game is the least valuable and the winning shot, winning baskets or offense during the closest stages to the end and closest gaps in the game

Both him and Bron have a lot of evidence in crunch time or close gaps the closer the game finishes being incredible its not just about "shot creation" steals/rebounds/blocks/deflections/playmaking all play a part in it.

Couple of posters above, Jokic has no troubles with shot creation. He just needs someone with a consistent pulse on offense that isn't totality dependent on him which hasn't happened for the majority.

[Champ1on]

Such a scrub... only had 27/20/11 today lol

I know right, he did not get 15 assist the whole game. Weak, trade him.

[DCasey91]

Jordan was nowhere near as good an offensive player as the masses seem to think. And likely a better defender than even his stellar rep.

If you want to assume he’s adapt his game and become a great distance shooter today, feel free, but remember, at the end off the day, you’re just guessing.

He might indeed average 37 ppg. On 55-58% TS. Which, while impressive, isn’t exactly winning basketball today. He’d still be one of, if not THE, best players in basketball, but this constant exaggeration of what he actually did gets tiresome.

The first part you're wrong. 88-93 Jordan is that especially in the first 3 peat. Outside of the Knicks series just pick any of them to watch. Flat out amazing

I do agree with the range shooting somewhat but not even with modern training, the training he had was fine, could have made it better, which dumbfounds me as he mastered the midrange. Must be the stubborness, still hit em when it mattered though most of the time

Like personally it would take Reggie or Glen Rice, Peja I would have close to GOATED offense with Jordan.

... Or just Pax and MJ lol.

[FarBeyondDriven]

where did this MJ couldn't shoot threes thus would struggle in today's NBA come from? He barely shot threes for the majority of his career but when he did, on somewhat volume (3 attempts per game) he was a well above average (for his time) shooter.

1989 - 38%
1992 - 35%
1995 - 43%
1996 - 37%

It's ludicrous to suggest a good FT shooter who also has shown to be an above average 3pt shooter anytime he put up 3 attempts per game, would struggle to adjust to today's game.

[DCasey91]

He shot 29% overall (take away the shortened line years) it doubled the 35% guys literally overnight .... doubled lmao. Shot better in the playoffs where I just said it matters more.

I mean seriously are we going to do this

Now with numbers there's context 88-98 Jordan was actually bang on average (34% vs 34.1% in the reg) that includes the shorter line. Could he shoot 3's yes later on exactly like Lebron (36% over the past 11 seasons and change)

Would he be great? Nope. Never showed a change in his mechanics out there which was in fact easily fixable.

It's simple dude had huge inversion on the knees consistently which is not a consistent method for consistently great shooting from out there.

[dhsilv2]

where did this MJ couldn't shoot threes thus would struggle in today's NBA come from? He barely shot threes for the majority of his career but when he did, on somewhat volume (3 attempts per game) he was a well above average (for his time) shooter.

1989 - 38%
1992 - 35%
1995 - 43%
1996 - 37%

It's ludicrous to suggest a good FT shooter who also has shown to be an above average 3pt shooter anytime he put up 3 attempts per game, would struggle to adjust to today's game.

Please don't use stats from the years with a shorter line...

But yes, MJ has a single season where he'd be above league average 3 point shooting. It was 1990 (not 1989) and it was on 3 attempts.

MJ doesn't need a 3 point shot to be great today so it's a silly argument to start with, but using this as a counter is just wild. And using 95 and 96 where we all know the line was shorter is down right dishonest.

[pwayknicks]

Brook Lopez learned to be a very good shooter .. to think others are wouldn’t is ridiculous


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[nikster]

Nah if you insert MJ into this era he would be an absolute terror

Imagine thinking it was difficult to score in the NBA in the 80s. Defense was so bad that they nearly scored as many points as today without shooting 3s.

Average PPG by a team between 1984 and 1989 (Jordan 80s years): 109.7 PPG
Average PPG by a team in 2024-25: 112.8

A whopping 3 point difference. But somehow MJ terrorizes this league like never before Did you ever watch any 80s basketball bruh?

Imagine thinking a chubby white boy like Luka can score 32ppg in this era but someone with Jordan’s insane speed and athleticism wouldn’t be able to add a 3 pt shot

Jordan would average at least 37ppg

That kind of ignorant statement is exactly why Luka fell in the draft, here you're repeating it again years later

[nikster]

Brook Lopez learned to be a very good shooter .. to think others are wouldn’t is ridiculous


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Yeah, and how many players from his era tried to develop a 3 but didn't? I'm sure many players from the 90s would develop a good 3 point shot, but many wouldn't. You can't just assume the players from the past would pick up a 3 point shot and not change anything else about their game