Retro Player of the Year 1993-94 UPDATE — Hakeem Olajuwon

[homecourtloss]

RPoY votes

1. Hakeem—pretty easy here. Great regular season who provided all the impact for the Rockets and then played a great playoffs. Hakeem is at a level here that with a better roster it might be a team that’s looked upon in a better light than this one even though they did have that 15-0 start.

2. DRob—absurd RS impact, but the playoff series vs. the Jazz was just plain bad, so I’m not so certain here but the regular season was basically all about him in every aspect. Spurs even played really slowly ensuring DRob was part of a high% of plays on both offense and defense and so it was up to him for that series and he didn’t deliver.

3. Pippen—took over the lead for the Bulls and led them to 55 wins. The Bulls outplayed the Knicks in my opinion and were likely a bad call away from going to the ECF for a 50-50 series with the Pacers. The Bulls from 1988-1998 played 36 playoff series and the rORtg vs. the 1994 Cavs was top 4 during this run and the +8.5 was a 50th percentile result. Pippen’s playmaking and defense were highly impressive.

Spoiler:

1988 vs. Cavs, +3.9
1988 vs. Pistons, -9.5
1989 vs. Cavs, +3.9
1989 vs. Knicks, +8.3
1989 vs. Pistons, -1.6
1990 vs. Bucks, +10.0
1990 vs. Sixers, +8.3
1990 vs. Pistons, -2.1
1991 vs. Knicks, +8.8
1991 vs. Sixers, +10.8
1991 vs. Pistons, +17.0
1991 vs. Lakers, +10.7
1992 vs. Heat, +15.8
1992 vs. Knicks, +7.0
1992 vs. Cavs, +1.2
1992 vs. Blazers, +6.6
1993 vs. Hawks, +10.8
1993 vs. Cavs, +10.4
1993 vs. Knicks, +12.7
1993 vs. Suns, +6.3
1994 vs. Cavs, +13.6
1994 vs. Knicks, +8.5
1995 vs. Hornets, +6.1
1995 vs. Magic , +4.7
1996 vs. Heat, +15.2
1996 vs. Knicks, +1.7
1996 vs. Magic, +11.9
1996 vs. Sonics, +9.2
1997 vs. Bullets, +10.8
1997 vs. Hawks, +12.6
1997 vs. Heat, +3.4
1997 vs. Jazz, +.6
1998 vs. Nets, +10.8
1998 vs. Hornets, +3.6
1998 vs. Pacers, +12.6
1998 vs. Jazz, +.1

4. Ewing—led the Knicks to another ATG type defense, and he was the focal point on offense. A better series vs. the Rockets and they win the title though they might have anyway if a few bounces go their way.

5.Karl Malone—good regular season and post seeaons.

[lessthanjake]

You never had any interest in a meaningful discussion, hence why you immediately sought to derail it.


If you think looking at half a season against playoff teams is cherry-picking, no wonder you consistently show so much antipathy to the playoffs themselves.


^ Someone definitely not trying to drown out a point with banal gestures to a different conversation topic.

This is basically all just very rude (and non-substantive) and is behavior that really should be beneath someone trying to run a serious project.

Ever since you started posting again you have treated it unseriously at every turn. And unfortunately there is no substantive way to respond to a non-substantive derail someone at best made because they did not care to read one post above their own.

Yep, championship versus wholly uncompetitive first round exit.

This is not a valid response in a discussion that is explicitly only about the regular season. I very explicitly said Hakeem “clearly should be POY over Robinson” because of the playoffs, and you surely know that. I don’t know why you’d respond with this, except perhaps that you have no valid response.

I very explicitly said Robinson had an all-time regular season, yet here you are acting as if it were in question and something you really needed to clarify, because you now admit to not even bothering to read the preceding discussion (or indeed merely one post up).

^ Someone who definitely read what I wrote throughout this thread.

You are right that I have not read every word of every post you’ve made in this thread. I did not know that that was a prerequisite in order to discuss things in this thread or to respond to the substance of posts you later made that clearly relate to posts I’ve made. So I find this an odd response.

I find it odd you think — or claim to think — that it is okay to waste time because reading one post before your own was too much work.

In any event, I see that you somewhat equivocally referred to Robinson as “potentially the most valuable regular season player,” and you also extolled the “lift” he provided (while not specifically comparing to Hakeem). It’s definitely not clear from that whether or not you think Robinson had the better regular season than Hakeem in 1993-1994. If you do, then I’d have expected you to make that clear at some point in this exchange, since the exchange started with you responding to push back on a post that suggested Robinson definitely had the better regular season than Hakeem. So, for sake of clarity, do you agree with me that Robinson had the better regular season than Hakeem? If yes, then I don’t really think there’s much more for us to discuss on this, since we agree. If no, then this line you say above is just a non-serious deflection.

I think it was more impressive lift season long, and you had everything available to you to determine that much if it were of actual interest to you.

I have never seen anyone ballpark that specific 1994 roster as higher than 20 wins without Robinson. It is generally recognised as an outstanding instance of regular season lift. I personally have it in my top three to five, although I think the cast of the 2003 Timberwolves was more than four wins worse and that the cast of the 2009 Cavaliers was fewer than 11 wins better.

I also said as much here, and while I do not expect you to have read that comment made in a different thread, I would expect you to give a little more critical thought to the implication of my comparing Robinson’s regular season lift to two completely different players and years rather than to anyone else in this season.

1993 Hakeem I think is an interesting question, although Robinson still deserves the benefit of doubt in that comparison because as I said, wins over bad teams count too. But Hakeem’s 1994 is a step down from his 1993, and I have never suggested that 1994 Hakeem’s regular season is on the level of 2004 Garnett or 2010 Lebron — which already puts us past the stated 3-5 range, even just leaving it in the realm of win change rather than SRS change.

Uh huh. What were Robinson’s numbers against non-playoff teams.

His numbers against non-playoff teams are 33.2 points, 10.3 rebounds, and 4.9 assists, with a 62.2% TS%. Hakeem’s numbers against non-playoff teams are 28.6 points, 12.1 rebounds, and 3.4 assists, with a 58.6% TS%. Unsurprisingly, both of them score more points and more efficiently against non-playoff teams. The difference is definitely a bit bigger for Robinson, but this really is not very dramatic overall. To say his numbers are “severely skewed” or that he “struggled more” against good teams just seems clearly wrong.

Fortunately I trust most others will acknowledge a six-point drop and -8 worse efficiency as more than “a bit” of a “not very dramatic” skew.

Okay, so what I take from this is that you agree with me that Robinson had the clearly superior regular season in 1993-1994 compared to Hakeem, but that you once again have made a very rude post (after mod intervention, mind you), because you are upset that I did not divine your position on that from a post in which you objectively did not directly say it (and were also not directing the post to me at all), in a context in which you also appeared to be directly taking issue with what I had said. I guess it’s good we got to the point where you’re agreeing with me, but it seems like an unnecessarily rude way to go about it. Am glad that we’re in agreement that Robinson had a better regular season than Hakeem in 1993-1994, and given that you agree with me I don’t really think there’s much more for us to discuss on this.

[AEnigma]

There was never anything to discuss because you never cared about the discussion. It did not take any special “divination”; you made assumptions based on first a lack of any reading and then a lack of thoughtful reading, because you derive some inexplicable sense of value from making obvious statements and then reframing the conversation as if it were an argument you won. That habit, whether incidental or deliberate, also serves to completely derail the actual topic: no, I do not think his regular season was “clearly superior”, for reasons stated and from which you made every effort to distract. Stop trying to act as if I were at any point discussing the different concept of whether Robinson provided more total value to his team.

[penbeast0]

Warning issued. If you can't be civil, don't post.

[lessthanjake]

There was never anything to discuss because you never cared about the discussion. It did not take any special “divination”; you made assumptions based on first a lack of any reading and then a lack of thoughtful reading, because you derive some sad sense of value from making obvious statements and then reframing the conversation as if it were an argument you won. In this case, it also served to completely derail the actual topic: no, I do not think his regular season was “clearly superior”, for reasons stated and from which you made every effort to distract. Stop trying to act as if I were at any point discussing the different concept of whether Robinson provided more total value to his team.

I’m confused. Are you just objecting to the word “clearly” in there? Do you agree that Robinson was better in the regular season than Hakeem in 1993-1994? If your objection was just about the word “clearly” then I think that is pretty unimportant and not worth having a lengthy discussion about (and certainly not worth engaging with when you’re repeatedly making rude posts). On the other hand, if you don’t agree that Robinson had a better regular season than Hakeem in 1993-1994, then I’m really not sure what your objection was about in terms of me not adequately divining the meaning of your prior posts. I think it’s been obvious that the argument I’ve been making is that Robinson had the better regular season. That’s essentially the only thing I’ve said in this thread! And your response sarcastically suggesting I’d not read what you wrote earlier in the thread came directly in response to me saying “Regular season team results definitely suggest Robinson was the superior player in the regular season. As does the one-off data we have for that season, I’ll note.” If you do not agree that Robinson was the superior player in the regular season, then I definitely don’t see how reading your prior posts should’ve prevented me from arguing to you that Robinson was the superior player in the regular season. In other words, it seems to me that either your objection was an unfounded deflection, or your disagreement is semantic enough that I don’t really care about it.

You seem to maybe now be parsing between whether someone is a “superior player” and whether they “provided more total value to [their] team.” I’m definitely not sure that’s a real distinction, but in any event I certainly didn’t draw such a distinction and have consistently talked about Robinson being a superior or better player in the regular season (with team results presented as a piece of evidence for that) rather than any purportedly separate concept of providing “value.” If you actually draw a distinction there that leads you to different conclusions regarding who was superior/better vs. who provided more value, then I guess you’re free to explain that. If that’s the case, hopefully you’d explain this in a way that isn’t rude—you’ve been unable to do that twice now after mod intervention.

[AEnigma]

If you can quote where I said Robinson had a worse regular season, then there can be a discussion. Otherwise, I have said my piece and do not intend to derail the thread further.

[lessthanjake]

If you can quote where I said Robinson had a worse regular season, then discussion can continue. Otherwise, I have said my piece and do not intend to derail the thread further.

It seemed heavily implied in you arguing back and worth with someone whose argument was specifically that Robinson had a better regular season. But implications can sometimes be misleading, which is why I just very specifically asked you if you agree that Robinson was better in the regular season than Hakeem in 1993-1994. You seem unwilling to answer that simple question. If the answer is that you agree, then there’s not really anything more to discuss since you generally agree with me. If the answer is that you disagree, then that statement of disagreement would then of course be the “quote where [you] sa[y] Robinson had a worse regular season.” I don’t know why you’re demanding direct evidence of your views be presented by others based on your prior posts, instead of you just clarifying what your views are when asked.

[Cavsfansince84]

I can't fathom the reasoning for being obsessive over which player had the better rs in a project dedicated to regular seaons+playoffs. Re DRob and Hakeem, unless someone is arguing for David being above him on that basis I can't understand why this is being discussed so much. Its well known that he had some atg level regular seasons and that most criticism comes from his playoff performances.

[AEnigma]

If you can quote where I said Robinson had a worse regular season, then discussion can continue. Otherwise, I have said my piece and do not intend to derail the thread further.

It seemed heavily implied in you arguing back and worth with someone whose argument was specifically that Robinson had a better regular season.

I repeatedly told you that you were derailing discussion with off-topic arguments, and you repeatedly ignored me. This is why it is important to read what people write. I hope next time you remember that lesson and save us all the time.

[lessthanjake]

I can't fathom the reasoning for being obsessive over which player had the better rs in a project dedicated to regular seaons+playoffs. Re DRob and Hakeem, unless someone is arguing for David being above him on that basis I can't understand why this is being discussed so much. It’s well known that he had some atg level regular seasons and that most criticism comes from his playoff performances.

The answer is that I made a post saying that Hakeem should clearly be POY due to the playoffs but also noting what I figured was a fairly uncontroversial assertion that Robinson was actually better in the regular season. It was a short post that I frankly did not expect to create any sort of firestorm or even necessarily be responded to at all. It then spawned some posts that seemed to dispute it, which created a discussion about it. You are right that it’s not *that* important, since I said in my very first post in this thread that Hakeem is the clear POY. We definitely seem to all be in agreement about that. That said, the 1993-1994 regular season is definitely very relevant to discuss in a 1993-1994 POY thread, even if it’s not dispositive. And it certainly might be relevant to Robinson’s placement (after all, people vote for more than just #1). Even assuming he’s not #1 (which I don’t think he should be), outperforming the #1 in the regular season is a significant thing IMO. And you can say “It’s well known that he had some ATG level regular seasons,” but that surely doesn’t mean it’s not something worth mentioning in a thread that is for POY in one of those regular seasons where he played at an ATG level.

[lessthanjake]

If you can quote where I said Robinson had a worse regular season, then discussion can continue. Otherwise, I have said my piece and do not intend to derail the thread further.

It seemed heavily implied in you arguing back and worth with someone whose argument was specifically that Robinson had a better regular season.

I repeatedly told you that you were derailing discussion with off-topic arguments, and you repeatedly ignored me. This is why it is important to read what people write. I hope next time you remember that lesson and save us all the time.

You still refuse to answer a very simple clarifying question (i.e. whether you think Robinson was a better player than Hakeem in the 1993-1994 regular season). I don’t understand why. I guess there’s no point in continuing to ask you to do so, since you are evidently unwilling to answer it for some reason.

And it’s certainly not “off-topic” in a 1993-1994 POY thread to talk about who had the best 1993-1994 regular season.

[Cavsfansince84]

The answer is that I made a post saying that Hakeem should clearly be POY due to the playoffs but also noting what I figured was a fairly uncontroversial assertion that Robinson was actually better in the regular season. It was a short post that I frankly did not expect to create any sort of firestorm or even necessarily be responded to at all. It then spawned some posts that seemed to dispute it, which created a discussion about it. You are right that it’s not *that* important, since I said in my very first post in this thread that Hakeem is the clear POY. We definitely seem to all be in agreement about that. That said, the 1993-1994 regular season is definitely very relevant to discuss in a 1993-1994 POY thread, even if it’s not dispositive. And it certainly might be relevant to Robinson’s placement (after all, people vote for more than just #1). Even assuming he’s not #1 (which I don’t think he should be), outperforming the #1 in the regular season is a significant thing IMO. And you can say “It’s well known that he had some ATG level regular seasons,” but that surely doesn’t mean it’s not something worth mentioning in a thread that is for POY in one of those regular seasons where he played at an ATG level.

idk. Making that post with no other reasoning attached to it for where you would place him on a ballot seems rather silly to begin with. It's just like you ended up spending a whole page or two comparing him to Hakeem despite everyone already admitting he has almost no case over Hakeem in a vote. If anything why not just start out by comparing him to players where you address their seasons/playoffs relating to David if he's a player you want to discuss or make a case for being above them?

[lessthanjake]

The answer is that I made a post saying that Hakeem should clearly be POY due to the playoffs but also noting what I figured was a fairly uncontroversial assertion that Robinson was actually better in the regular season. It was a short post that I frankly did not expect to create any sort of firestorm or even necessarily be responded to at all. It then spawned some posts that seemed to dispute it, which created a discussion about it. You are right that it’s not *that* important, since I said in my very first post in this thread that Hakeem is the clear POY. We definitely seem to all be in agreement about that. That said, the 1993-1994 regular season is definitely very relevant to discuss in a 1993-1994 POY thread, even if it’s not dispositive. And it certainly might be relevant to Robinson’s placement (after all, people vote for more than just #1). Even assuming he’s not #1 (which I don’t think he should be), outperforming the #1 in the regular season is a significant thing IMO. And you can say “It’s well known that he had some ATG level regular seasons,” but that surely doesn’t mean it’s not something worth mentioning in a thread that is for POY in one of those regular seasons where he played at an ATG level.

idk. Making that post with no other reasoning attached to it for where you would place him on a ballot seems rather silly to begin with. It's just like you ended up spending a whole page or two comparing him to Hakeem despite everyone already admitting he has almost no case over Hakeem in a vote. If anything why not just start out by comparing him to players where you address their seasons/playoffs relating to David if he's a player you want to discuss or make a case for being above them?

I’m not sure why it’s necessary to nitpick exactly how I made the point I was making. In any event, I didn’t compare Robinson’s regular season to others besides Hakeem because Hakeem is the one that won regular season MVP (something I specifically mentioned in my initial post) and pretty clearly has the top competing argument for having had the best 1993-1994 regular season. Robinson having a better regular season than the RS MVP and the one who will win POY seems like something that obviously has more force to it than saying Robinson had a better RS than someone who finished below him in MVP voting. And that’s important for Robinson, because he obviously gets dragged down by the playoffs, so his case to be ranked highly revolves around exactly how great his RS was. Saying he was the best RS performer that season seems like a very important point for him (indeed, it’s really the basis for his entire case), and that point wouldn’t exactly be achieved by merely saying he had a better regular season than guys like Ewing/Pippen/Shaq/etc. Personally, I think there’s a real difference between how I’d rank someone who was the best RS player and flopped in the playoffs, compared to how I’d rank someone who was the 2nd best regular season player and flopped in the playoffs. Being the best player in the regular season is significant IMO!

EDIT: Indeed, I’d note that I see at least a couple voting posts that justify placing Robinson 2nd specifically based on a favorable comparison of Robinson’s RS to Hakeem’s—so I’m definitely not alone here in thinking this is significant even if it doesn’t put Robinson ahead of Hakeem overall.

[OhayoKD]

I can't fathom the reasoning for being obsessive over which player had the better rs in a project dedicated to regular seaons+playoffs. Re DRob and Hakeem, unless someone is arguing for David being above him on that basis I can't understand why this is being discussed so much. It’s well known that he had some atg level regular seasons and that most criticism comes from his playoff performances.

The answer is that I made a post saying that Hakeem should clearly be POY due to the playoffs but also noting what I figured was a fairly uncontroversial assertion that Robinson was actually better in the regular season. It was a short post that I frankly did not expect to create any sort of firestorm or even necessarily be responded to at all. It then spawned some posts that seemed to dispute it, which created a discussion about it. You are right that it’s not *that* important, since I said in my very first post in this thread that Hakeem is the clear POY. We definitely seem to all be in agreement about that. That said, the 1993-1994 regular season is definitely very relevant to discuss in a 1993-1994 POY thread, even if it’s not dispositive. And it certainly might be relevant to Robinson’s placement (after all, people vote for more than just #1). Even assuming he’s not #1 (which I don’t think he should be), outperforming the #1 in the regular season is a significant thing IMO. And you can say “It’s well known that he had some ATG level regular seasons,” but that surely doesn’t mean it’s not something worth mentioning in a thread that is for POY in one of those regular seasons where he played at an ATG level.

Eh? I don't think you're following the convo that well to be honest.


Aenigma responded to Djoker saying “In the mid 90's, he consistently looks like two tiers behind Hakeem in the PS” with a comment about how he both played against postseason teams in the regular season. You then said they were trying to hide that Robinson had a better regular season, they said that was not what he was talking about, and you kept talking about Robinson having a better regular season:

The only one trying to downplay anything is you — which is why when confronted with a pointed observation of a pertinent trend, your reflex is to distract from it with banal gestures back to something no one disputed and hope it goes unnoticed.

Someone definitely not trying to drown out a point with banal gestures to a different conversation topic.

I do not see anyone disputing Robinsons's regular-season impact here besides, I guess implicitly, Konr ("Hakeem deserved MVP"). It might be more productive if you specify what/who you're responding to?

[lessthanjake]

I can't fathom the reasoning for being obsessive over which player had the better rs in a project dedicated to regular seaons+playoffs. Re DRob and Hakeem, unless someone is arguing for David being above him on that basis I can't understand why this is being discussed so much. It’s well known that he had some atg level regular seasons and that most criticism comes from his playoff performances.

The answer is that I made a post saying that Hakeem should clearly be POY due to the playoffs but also noting what I figured was a fairly uncontroversial assertion that Robinson was actually better in the regular season. It was a short post that I frankly did not expect to create any sort of firestorm or even necessarily be responded to at all. It then spawned some posts that seemed to dispute it, which created a discussion about it. You are right that it’s not *that* important, since I said in my very first post in this thread that Hakeem is the clear POY. We definitely seem to all be in agreement about that. That said, the 1993-1994 regular season is definitely very relevant to discuss in a 1993-1994 POY thread, even if it’s not dispositive. And it certainly might be relevant to Robinson’s placement (after all, people vote for more than just #1). Even assuming he’s not #1 (which I don’t think he should be), outperforming the #1 in the regular season is a significant thing IMO. And you can say “It’s well known that he had some ATG level regular seasons,” but that surely doesn’t mean it’s not something worth mentioning in a thread that is for POY in one of those regular seasons where he played at an ATG level.

Eh? I don't think you're following the convo that well to be honest.


Aenigma responded to Djoker saying “In the mid 90's, he consistently looks like two tiers behind Hakeem in the PS” with a comment about how he both played against postseason teams in the regular season. You then said they were trying to hide that Robinson had a better regular season, they said that was not what he was talking about, and you kept talking about Robinson having a better regular season:

The only one trying to downplay anything is you — which is why when confronted with a pointed observation of a pertinent trend, your reflex is to distract from it with banal gestures back to something no one disputed and hope it goes unnoticed.

Someone definitely not trying to drown out a point with banal gestures to a different conversation topic.

I do not see anyone disputing Robinsons's regular-season impact here besides, I guess implicitly, Konr ("Hakeem deserved MVP"). It might be more productive if you specify what/who you're responding to?

Djoker’s post was made in response to my post about Robinson being better than Hakeem in the RS and started out by saying “I don't think it's at all controversial to say that Robinson had a better RS than Hakeem. In fact, I'd say he definitely had a better RS.” AEnigma’s response then talked specifically about the regular season, in a way that played up Hakeem’s RS and downplayed Robinson’s RS. I think it is quite natural to take that post as implicitly arguing against the thesis set forth by both me and Djoker that Robinson had a better RS than Hakeem. And I’ll note that AEnigma as much as said that’s what he was doing, when he later said: “no, I do not think his regular season was ‘clearly superior’, for reasons stated.” Of course, if despite all this AEnigma was *not* arguing against that thesis and he actually agrees with that thesis, then AEnigma could easily clarify that by directly saying that he agrees with it, and the discussion would be over because we’d be in agreement. I have directly asked for clarification on that multiple times now, only to get rude deflections in response (to the point of AEnigma receiving a warning from mods). If AEnigma actually agrees with me (and Djoker), it would’ve been very simple for him to make that clear already. For whatever reason, he has chosen not to. Instead, he has gestured vaguely to the idea that I should already know his views on this. I don’t. It’s why I’m asking for clarification. The closest I got was the aforementioned statement that AEnigma “do[es] not think [Robinson’s] regular season was ‘clearly superior,’” but when I asked for clarification as to whether that was merely an objection to the word “clearly” or an objection more generally to Robinson having had a superior regular season, I got a deflecting response.

[B-Mitch 30]

Offensive Player of the Year

1. David Robinson

The Admiral had quite the year, leading the NBA in scoring, having a 71 point game and a 34 point quadruple double, being one of the league’s best rebounders despite sharing the court with Dennis Rodman, and even shooting well from three on okay volume (Hakeem and Patrick Ewing also had their best seasons shooting the three this season coincidentally, though Hakeem shot at over 40% in the regular season and playoffs, but with fewer attempts than Robinson). The Spurs also had one of the best offenses in the league this year, even if Robinson flamed out a bit in the playoffs, which many have chalked up to overuse and fatigue.

2. Karl Malone

Besides the Spurs, the Jazz might have had the best offense in the NBA, with their only deficiency being average offensive rebounding. Malone had his usual 25/10/4 stat line, and despite declining in the playoffs, made it to the Western Conference Finals, where he lost to the Rockets despite some... interesting timekeeping in Utah:

Watch on YouTube

3. Shaquille O’Neal

I’m not a huge Shaq guy, but it’s hard to argue with his results. The Magic were a very well balanced offense this season, and Shaq came within 40 points of winning the scoring title. He had his usual absurd efficiency, and his free throw shooting hadn’t quite declined to its mid-90’s nadir. Shaq was/is arguably the strongest player we have tons of video of, and I can’t imagine how much intimidation he added after obliterating several backboards in his rookie campaign.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Hakeem Olajuwon

Was there any doubt? Hakeem won his second DPOTY award this season, and in the playoffs made numerous clutch defensive plays, the most famous and important being blocking a game winning three in game six of the Finals.

2. Dikembe Mutombo

Dikembe had his best offensive and defensive season this year, recording career highs in blocks, steals, and eFG. His defense was so good that a Sonics team that was arguably the best offense in the league lost to a Nuggets team with little on it besides Dikembe. The Nuggets also took the Jazz to seven games, and the image of Dikembe celebrating his team’s historic upset of the Sonics is arguably the most iconic moment of his career.

3. Patrick Ewing

The Knicks' already great defense got even better this year, and Ewing continued to be one of the NBA’s best defensive rebounders and shot blockers. When he declined offensively in the playoffs, his defense was one of the only things keeping him and the Knicks on the court, as they nearly won the championship.

Player of the Year

1. Hakeem Olajuwon

Hakeem’s offense was also extremely potent this year, and made its full effect known in the playoffs, as he won the triple crown of MVP, DPOTY, and Finals MVP.

2. David Robinson

Despite his quick playoff exit, Robinson had a great season, and was arguably better than Hakeem in a few respects. Considering how he eventually overcame his postseason demons, I’m willing to chalk this up to Spurs mismanagement.

3. Karl Malone

Malone wasn’t the defender Robinson was, but the Jazz still had a good defense, and Malone had a much better postseason than him, even if his stats weren’t great.

4. Shaquille O’Neal

Shaq’s defense has always had plenty of warranted criticism, but I think he was a positive defender during his career for the most part, and the Magic were just kind of average on that front this year. His playoff stats were also good, though not as efficient as his regular season numbers, and the Magic lost in the first round.

5. Dikembe Mutombo

Dikembe wasn’t the offensive player any of these other guys were, but he was still very good on that front, and the Nuggets needed every bit of help just to reach the playoffs, let alone go on the run they did.

[OhayoKD]

Spoiler:

The answer is that I made a post saying that Hakeem should clearly be POY due to the playoffs but also noting what I figured was a fairly uncontroversial assertion that Robinson was actually better in the regular season. It was a short post that I frankly did not expect to create any sort of firestorm or even necessarily be responded to at all. It then spawned some posts that seemed to dispute it, which created a discussion about it. You are right that it’s not *that* important, since I said in my very first post in this thread that Hakeem is the clear POY. We definitely seem to all be in agreement about that. That said, the 1993-1994 regular season is definitely very relevant to discuss in a 1993-1994 POY thread, even if it’s not dispositive. And it certainly might be relevant to Robinson’s placement (after all, people vote for more than just #1). Even assuming he’s not #1 (which I don’t think he should be), outperforming the #1 in the regular season is a significant thing IMO. And you can say “It’s well known that he had some ATG level regular seasons,” but that surely doesn’t mean it’s not something worth mentioning in a thread that is for POY in one of those regular seasons where he played at an ATG level.

Eh? I don't think you're following the convo that well to be honest.


Aenigma responded to Djoker saying “In the mid 90's, he consistently looks like two tiers behind Hakeem in the PS” with a comment about how he both played against postseason teams in the regular season. You then said they were trying to hide that Robinson had a better regular season, they said that was not what he was talking about, and you kept talking about Robinson having a better regular season:

The only one trying to downplay anything is you — which is why when confronted with a pointed observation of a pertinent trend, your reflex is to distract from it with banal gestures back to something no one disputed and hope it goes unnoticed.

Someone definitely not trying to drown out a point with banal gestures to a different conversation topic.

I do not see anyone disputing Robinsons's regular-season impact here besides, I guess implicitly, Konr ("Hakeem deserved MVP"). It might be more productive if you specify what/who you're responding to?

Djoker’s post was made in response to my post about Robinson being better than Hakeem in the RS and started out by saying “I don't think it's at all controversial to say that Robinson had a better RS than Hakeem.” AEnigma’s response then talked specifically about the regular season, in a way that played up Hakeem’s RS and downplayed Robinson’s RS. I think it is quite natural to take that post as implicitly arguing against the thesis set forth by both me and Djoker that Robinson had a better RS than Hakeem. And I’ll note that AEnigma as much as said that’s what he was doing, when he later said: “no, I do not think his regular season was ‘clearly superior’, for reasons stated.” Of course, if despite all this AEnigma was *not* arguing against that thesis and he actually agrees with that thesis, then AEnigma could easily clarify that by directly saying that he agrees with it, and the discussion would be over because we’d be in agreement. I have directly asked for clarification on that multiple times now, only to get rude deflections in response (to the point of AEnigma receiving a warning from mods). If AEnigma actually agrees with me (and Djoker), it would’ve been very simple for him to make that clear already. For whatever reason, he has chosen not to. Instead, he has gestured vaguely to the idea that I should already know his views on this. I don’t. It’s why I’m asking for clarification. The closest I got was the aforementioned statement that AEnigma “do[es] not think [Robinson’s] regular season was ‘clearly superior,’” but when I asked for clarification as to whether that was merely an objection to the word “clearly” or an objection more generally to Robinson having had a superior regular season, I got a deflecting response.

So basically you think you were in the right for derailing a conversation topic that was not directed at you or at what you said?

Honestly I thought you were just baiting them into getting annoyed enough to earn a warning but now you look like the one who can't let things go

I am going to close this thread for the next 3 hours, longer if I get involved in something interesting. Everyone walk away and quit trying to bait each other.

penbeast0

[Djoker]

Shall we move on to 1994-95? It's one of the most exciting years to me.

[LA Bird]

Player of the Year
1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Karl Malone
3. David Robinson
4. Dikembe Mutombo
5. Patrick Ewing

Not sure why Karl Malone is left out of some top 5 completely. He is right behind Robinson in RS impact (+17.4 on/off) with a massive lead over Stockton (+7.3 on/off), he outplays Robinson convincingly H2H in the playoffs, and only loses to the champion Rockets in the WCF where he played much better than Ewing did a round later. Malone averaged a solid 26/13/5 in the loss against Hakeem and while the 51% TS wasn't pretty, it's still miles better than Ewing's abysmal 39% TS in the Finals with his 18/12/2. Starks gets roasted for the G7 choke but rarely is his 21/4/7 on 63% TS average over the previous 5 games mentioned. For reference, Stockton averaged 14/3/9 on 49% TS in his 5 games against the Rockets. Harper also played better than Hornacek in a Houston series comparison and Oakley + Mason vs Felton Spencer is no comparison. The Knicks got closer to beating the Rockets than the Jazz did but individually, Malone was better than Ewing. I can understand ranking Robinson higher because of his epic regular season but then Malone is still 3rd at worst for me.

Mutombo argument from before:

Spoiler:

For Mutombo, most people might only think of the 1st round upset and consider it a fluke but he was great the entire year. If we look at regular season impact numbers,

Mutombo: +5.5 on, -8.8 off, +14.3 net
O'Neal: +5.5 on, -2.2 off, +7.7 net
Pippen: +5.5 on, -1.6 off, +7.0 net

Mutombo is hanging with top 4 MVP candidates in on-court team performance despite playing with far worse teammates. The Nuggets were the youngest team in the league and besides Mutombo, nobody ever made All Star or All Defense in their career. They were also the worst 3pt shooting team in the league by percentage and second worst by volume. Denver's RS win record was mediocre but it's not because of Mutombo.

In the playoffs, the Nuggets faced the Sonics in round 1. This is a team which:
- Fell one game short of the Finals the previous year
- Had the best SRS by a clear margin (+2.2 over second, +3.6 over third)
- Was #2 on offense behind only Barkley/KJ Suns
- Went 17-2 heading into the playoffs (losing to Nuggets and Suns).

Mutombo delivered arguably the greatest non-Russell defensive series ever and shut down the entire Sonics team while averaging a record 6.2 blocks. Kemp, who was otherwise a good postseason scorer during his All Star prime (20 ppg on 61% TS), was held to only 15 ppg on 44% TS. For full disclosure, the Sonics internal problems after the Payton/Pierce fight at G2 halftime probably helped but the Nuggets also had a competitive series with the Jazz the next round too. They forced a G7 and lost by a much closer margin than Robinson Spurs did. While a second round exit might not seem like much, only Hakeem/Ewing/Malone/Reggie advanced further and Miller didn't actually have a good series to push the Pacers into the Conference Finals (18.5 points on 53.3% TS).

Pippen for me feels a little overrated because of the Bulls' 55 wins which vastly outperformed their SRS. That number looks a bit better when we ignored his missed games (+4) but Pippen's overall on-court net for the season was still only +5.5. That is tied for the lowest among all POY candidates and of those, Pippen had the lowest on/off, with an even lower figure than teammate Grant. In the playoffs, Pippen had an excellent first round sweep but that came against a Cavs team missing their entire frontcourt which made it kind of pointless. Seriously, the series is already over when you are starting this guy and playing him 43 minutes. The Bulls almost beat the Knicks in the next round but it's not like Pippen played particularly amazing that series. Even if they had advanced to the conference finals, that is as far as the Pacers got already and people rarely use the team argument for Reggie in the top 5 despite a stronger track record of playoffs improvement.

Offensive Player of the Year
1. Kevin Johnson
2. Reggie Miller
3. Shaquille O'Neal

Previously had Reggie at 1 but I can't look past the long stretch of games after the Orlando series where he simply looked underwhelming even by his RS standards (18/3/2 on 53% TS). The Pacers were relatively more successful on defense than offense in both the regular season and playoffs and while Reggie had great impact numbers this year, the overall team performance on offense was a bit weak for my liking. To be fair, Indiana's starting point guard was just picked up from Italy, they have no outside shooting besides Reggie (0.7 makes on 29%), and their only double digit scorers in the playoffs are Miller and Smits. They didn't have a high offensive ceiling anyway but that slump in the postseason was still a bit too much for me. KJ missed 15 games but otherwise, Suns were the #1 offense, they had a +8 postseason offense, and he played better than Barkley in what was probably the closest series for the champion Rockets. He also dunked on Hakeem. Sophomore Shaq came close to winning both the scoring title and FG% title if not for some last minute stat padding by Robinson and he led the Magic to a top 3 offense. Fell apart in the playoffs though and with pre-prime impact numbers, I think 3 is a good spot for him.

Defensive Player of the Year
1. Dikembe Mutombo
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Patrick Ewing

Top 5 defense for all three with the Knicks leading the way with a historic -8.1 rDRtg. Ewing also had the most help though which is reflected in his high off-court net rating. Individually, he lacks Mutombo's length or Hakeem's quickness and is thus 3rd for me. Hakeem anchoring the 2nd best defense and shutting down Ewing in the Finals plus the game saving block on Starks is a strong DPOY case in most years but Mutombo is the standout for me this season. He almost matched Hakeem in regular season on/off despite being a non-factor on offense and he erases any concerns about his biggest defensive weakness (mobility) in dominant fashion by shutting down one of the most athletic bigs ever in young Kemp. Mutombo doesn't translate as well as Hakeem to today's 3pt league but that is of no importance to me in a 1994 only evaluation. I do find the Nuggets mediocre defense and Mutombo's lacklustre on/off the next two seasons a little concerning but that will be judged accordingly when the time comes.

[AEnigma]

OhayoKD voted here.

Do we vote here now?

The three of you expressed interest in voting (the latter two privately). I will keep ballots open for another… say minimum four hours, because that is roughly how long was left when the thread was locked. Please try to post your ballots before then or otherwise indicate when you will be able to post a ballot.