Retro Player of the Year 1993-94 UPDATE — Hakeem Olajuwon

[IlikeSHAIguys]

1 - Hakeem
2 - Scottie Pippen
3 - Deke Mutombo
4 - Karl Malone
5 - Patrick Ewing

Feel like Hakeem is obvious. I guess david robinson might have been the real MVP or whatever but he seems to have a really bad playoffs and Hakeem has a really good one.

I'm not really sure about the rest but Pippen does alot better than people expect and I feel like people voting Pippen have gone the deepest into it. He's considered the best at locking guys down ever by lots of people and if he's also doing the rim protecting thing alot and he's a great passer and he scores 20+ that seems like a really good two-way player to me.

Mutombo was the guy people really convinced me on cause honestly I wasn't even thinking about him like at all but it looks like however you swing it he didn't have alot of help and despite that he does really well. Maybe I should be higher on the Mailguy but if he's going to have the all-time leader of assists and another really good player in Horneack I feel like he should do better.

I was thinking of putting Ewing like 2 but it seems he really had a bad time in the finals? His shooting is pretty bad in the first round too. Reggie's playoff stats are alot worse so I don't know if he's really the one making the Pacers play better in the playoffs. I figured Robinson didn't do so hot in the playoffs but wow I didn't think they were THAT bad.

Defensive Player of the Year
1 - Deke Mutembo
2 - Hakeem
3 - Scottie Pippen

Offensive Player of the Year
1 - Hakeem
2 - Karl Malone
3 - Kevin Johnson

Could someone explain Barkley being better than KJ for me? I'm not saying it can't be true but KJ is scoring as much and getting way more assists and people here were even voting him above MJ on offense. Barkley's also a bad defender according to everyone here so why is he considered better? I thought it might be a true shooting thing but KJ's is actually higher.

[AEnigma]

Could someone explain Barkley being better than KJ for me? I'm not saying it can't be true but KJ is scoring as much and getting way more assists and people here were even voting him above MJ on offense. Barkley's also a bad defender according to everyone here so why is he considered better? I thought it might be a true shooting thing but KJ's is actually higher.

Tough to track exactly what you mean because none of this seems specifically directed at anything. The career question makes no sense to me. The peak question does not apply to the true shooting comment. And then I am the only person to vote Barkley above KJ in this thread… but if you had read my voting post, then you would already have your answer.

KJ and Barkley seem near equally responsible for the Suns’ league-best offence. Both did fine without the other: Barkley won both KJ-less games, and KJ went 3-1 without Barkley. Statmuse seems to give the Suns a 113.2 offensive rating in games with either, so no separation there. In their wins against the Rockets, Barkley was better in Game 2, KJ was better in Game 6, and both had rough games in Game 1. However, I suppose the ultimate point of distinction is that Barkley’s offence generally seems more playoff resilient, so he can edge out a second place finish.

Barkley was substantially better against the Warriors, and I do not think it is any sort of given that he was worse than KJ against the Rockets this year (different matter next year).

[trex_8063]

Defensive Player of the Year
1. Hakeem Olajuwon - Debated giving him #2, but ultimately I think his superior athleticism (relative to what Ewing was by '94) still leaves him a tiny edge, despite Ewing possessing better [imo] fundamentals. Hakeem would bite on fakes from the outside more, was slightly lesser in his positioning for pnr defense......but god, he was such a phenomenal athlete that it erased a lot of sins.
He had a good defensive supporting cast in Horry, Maxwell, Smith, and Elie, though not as strong as what Ewing had. So no shame in only coming in [a rather distant] second defensively.
But idk, I could easily swap 1&2 here.

2. Patrick Ewing - Almost gave him #1, and I admit this is somewhat a function of their marvellous team result, which was certainly an ensemble effort (tons of excellent defenders on this roster, aside from Ewing: Oakley, Starks, Mason, even the aging Derek Harper is still a decent defensive player). But I do think Ewing was the single-biggest piece of their success. Even though his athleticism is flagging a bit by this point, he was always [imo] the most fundamentally sound pnr defender (in terms of positioning, footwork) among the juggernaut defensive centers in the league at this time. He boxed out, rebounded excellent on an individual level, stout post defender, great rotationally and as help defender. Not blocking as many shots as Hakeem or Robinson, but challenging as many (I suspect; and still blocking 2.7 per game, fwiw). A bit of an enforcer (though Oakley can probably take more credit on this), more so than DRob, Hakeem, or Mutombo.

3. Dikembe Mutombo - Can't believe I'm leaving DRob off the ballot, but man we had some defensive monsters this year. Dikembe anchored the 5th-rated defense with less help than Ewing, maybe near equal(ish) to Hakeem. Then of course there was that 1st round series, where he avg >6 blocks per game--including the block on Kemp--obliterating Seattle's 2nd-rated offense.

Top HM: David Robinson, though shout-out to Scottie Pippen, too.


Offensive Player of the Year
1. Shaquille O'Neal - Penny's showing a ton of promise, but still a rookie and not yet in his prime. Nick Anderson is decent. Scott can space, but ultimately he and Skiles are basically low-level starters, and the bench isn't great. But "somehow" this was the 3rd-best offensive in the land. The "somehow" was obviously Shaq: the gravity, the finishing [60.0% from 2pt], the foul-drawing [10.5 FTA/game], scoring >29 ppg on outstanding (for the time-period) shooting efficiency while also grabbing nearly 5 offensive rebounds per game. He was a force of nature.

2. David Robinson - It's only his fumbling in the playoffs that demotes him to #2 for me. But with the efficient 29.8 ppg [league-best] to go along with a team-best 4.8 apg, and being the fulcrum of their pnr game, he's basically everything to this 5th-rated offense (which he did without a ton of help).
Note also he was my top HM defensively. His value [in rs at least] is indicated by the AuPM we have for this year [rs only], where he's first by a kind of silly margin.

3. Karl Malone - This being one of the few years he actually performs pretty well in the playoffs (not a small feat, considering he faced David Robinson, then Dikembe, and then Hakeem) makes me give him the nod here, to a guy averaging in the neighbourhood of 25 and 4 on good efficiency, in the rs and playoffs, to make a good offense go. rs AuPM is 2nd only to Robinson, fwiw.

Top HM: Hakeem. Could easily go with him for 3rd here.


Player of the Year
1. Hakeem Olajuwon - It's gotta be him, given the playoff run and the title. If not for that......but then "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts.....
He's my tentative DPOY, and my top HM for OPOY (could easily put him 3rd). He's just got such an amazing two-way [and playoff resilient] skill/ability-set, and everything seems to come together for him (including a godawful game 7 for John Starks, the lucky bastard....).

2. David Robinson - The best player of the rs, and by a good margin, imo. A playoff flub [4-game sample] just isn't enough for me to demote him any further than this, even if playoff failings would haunt much of his career.
The thing is [to paraphrase a quote I once heard]: Robinson was asked [needed] by the Spurs to be Michael Jordan on offense and Bill Russell on defense; and he was so goddamn good that he basically DID achieve that......in the rs. But he couldn't maintain it in the playoffs.
I bring this up to emphasize that his playoff drop-off mostly looks so huge because of the almost unattainably awesome regular season standard he set so often set. Truly a candidate for rs GOAT, imo, and still "pretty good" in the playoffs (but the Spurs didn't need him to be "pretty good" to succeed in the ps......they needed him to be GOAT-level).

3. Patrick Ewing - Basically my "1b" for DPOY, while also being the offensive centerpiece of a team that made to the Finals (and as close to a title as is possible, actually marginally outscoring the Rockets in the 7-game series). His offensive efficiency tanks horribly in the playoffs, but he was always [like Robinson] tasked with more offensive burden than he was really suited to.
Nonetheless a marvellous season. Could see going as low as 4th (maybe dark-horse nudge as far as 5th), but he's definitely gotta be in here, imo.

4. Shaquille O'Neal - OPOY who also blocked nearly 3 shots per game, fwiw. Poor playoff showing, though his team didn't really show up either; this nonetheless dings him a little.

5. Scottie Pippen - Giving him the barest edge over Karl Malone. Kept the Bulls in near-contender status even after the departure of Jordan. Is leading the team in ppg and apg [rs and playoffs], whilst simultaneously being [arguably, at least] the primary anchor of their 6th-rated defense. Though he had some non-admirable moments in the playoffs, they took the EC champs to 7 games in the ECSF.

Top HM: Karl Malone.

[capfan33]

OPOY
1. Reggie- Legendary postseason performer who continually elevated mediocre offensive teams in deep playoff runs against all manner of defenses.

2. Chuck- while I wouldn’t call it a great performance against the rockets he was still eminently respectable and pushing them to 7 games was an accomplishment.

3. KJ- I don’t think KJ was a better offensive player than Shaq in a vacuum, but Shaqs performance this year was underwhelming enough to where I can’t really vote him top 3. Malone also performed reasonably well and deserves a mention.

1. Hakeem-Goat level title run.
2. Ewing- Actually pretty difficult to determine after this point, i could go either way on a lot of these. Overall, Ewings finals run as the focal point wins out for me despite the terrible offensive performance in the finals.
3. Pippen- Had an incredible year as the Bulls lead option and very easily could have gone to the finals. Ultimately think Ewing is just a bit better as a player and had less offensive help while still being a better defender, but if Pippen makes the finals in place of Ewing would prob put him higher.
4. Robinson- Maybe a top3 regular season ever by impact metrics but I value the playoffs quite a bit, and as such I don’t really think I can put him higher than 4th.
5. Mutombo- despite not being a Malone fan generally, he definitely deserves a mention here for his excellent performance against Robinson. I waffled back and forth, but ultimately the write ups and film on Mutombo convinced me to go with him, incredible run and game breaking defensive impact was too much for me to leave off the ballot. I could easily see an argument for him higher.

[AEnigma]

If you want me to count the messaged ballot, then you need to provide reasoning. I do not mind if the reasoning comes a bit after the fact, but I am not going to hold up the tallying process any longer.

[70sFan]

Player of the Year

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Karl Malone
3. David Robinson
4. Dikembe Mutombo
5. Patrick Ewing

HM: Scottie Pippen, Shaquille O'Neal

Hakeem is an easy choice this season and I don't think anyone is even close to him.

The rest is very interesting though. Malone had probably the best team after Hornacek trade, but he played reasonably well in the playoffs (I think only Mutombo played clearly better). I think it's the time when Malone started to expand his passing game, something that made him reach another level. He did respectably well against the Rockets when you compare him to Ewing.

Robinson was the best player in the RS and I can't put him lower. I think very critical of his postseason performance, but it was a short series that don't erase everything that happened in the whole season. Robinson's RS is one of the greatest ever in my opinion and I don't think it's controversial at all.

Ewing could have been higher than that, but he had truly horrible offensive finals - had he played at least at respectable level, the Knicks would have been the champions.

Mutombo vs Pippen vs Shaq is very close, but I decided to go with Deke because he had the best postseason run in my opinion. I could see him being even higher. His RS performance is also extremely underrated, as always people don't realize how much of an impact a defensive player could have.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Karl Malone
2. Reggie Miller
3. Shaquille O'Neal

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Dikembe Mutombo
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Patrick Ewing

[lessthanjake]

Could someone explain Barkley being better than KJ for me? I'm not saying it can't be true but KJ is scoring as much and getting way more assists and people here were even voting him above MJ on offense. Barkley's also a bad defender according to everyone here so why is he considered better? I thought it might be a true shooting thing but KJ's is actually higher.

I actually think this is an interesting question. I think the answer is probably just that Barkley is a superior impact offensive player. With Barkley it’s not just the efficient scoring, but also the gravity when he’s in the post, as well as the offensive rebounding. I think he just provided more offensively overall than KJ did. That said, 1993-1994 was far from Barkley’s best year, so I can definitely conceive of someone thinking KJ was better that year. They finished 10th and 11th in MVP voting, so it’s not like Barkley was seen as way above KJ that year. For me, I think the fact that Barkley was incredible in the first round of the playoffs probably makes the choice fairly easy, though.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

Could someone explain Barkley being better than KJ for me? I'm not saying it can't be true but KJ is scoring as much and getting way more assists and people here were even voting him above MJ on offense. Barkley's also a bad defender according to everyone here so why is he considered better? I thought it might be a true shooting thing but KJ's is actually higher.

Tough to track exactly what you mean because none of this seems specifically directed at anything. The career question makes no sense to me. The peak question does not apply to the true shooting comment. And then I am the only person to vote Barkley above KJ in this thread… but if you had read my voting post, then you would already have your answer.

KJ and Barkley seem near equally responsible for the Suns’ league-best offence. Both did fine without the other: Barkley won both KJ-less games, and KJ went 3-1 without Barkley. Statmuse seems to give the Suns a 113.2 offensive rating in games with either, so no separation there. In their wins against the Rockets, Barkley was better in Game 2, KJ was better in Game 6, and both had rough games in Game 1. However, I suppose the ultimate point of distinction is that Barkley’s offence generally seems more playoff resilient, so he can edge out a second place finish.

Barkley was substantially better against the Warriors, and I do not think it is any sort of given that he was worse than KJ against the Rockets this year (different matter next year).

I mean KJ has like twice as many assists and scores 3 more and has higher true shooting. He seems better by stats at least

[AEnigma]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 17 approved votes: Djoker, AEnigma, B-Mitch 30, ShaqAttac, 70sFan, ILikeShaiGuys, Trex_8063, OhayoKD, homecourtloss, Lebronnygoat, LA Bird, penbeast0, capfan33, konr0167, One_and_Done, ceoofkobefans, and trelos. DJoker, AEnigma, B-Mitch 30, trelos, 70sFan, OhayoKD, LA Bird, ILikeShaiGuys, ceoofkobefans, and trex_8063 also voted for both Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year, and capfan33 voted for Offensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1993-94 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Reggie Miller

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Reggie Miller   2   2   2    18    0.360
2. Karl Malone   1   3   1    15    0.300
3. David Robinson  2   1   0    13    0.260
4. Shaquille O’Neal   1   1   4    12    0.240
5. Hakeem Olajuwon   2   0   1    11    0.220
6. Kevin Johnson   1   1   2    10    0.200
7. Charles Barkley   1   1   0    8    0.160
8. John Stockton   0   1   0    3    0.060

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Hakeem Olajuwon (6)

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Hakeem Olajuwon    5   5   0    40   0.800
2. Dikembe Mutombo    4   2   3    29    0.580
3. Patrick Ewing    1   3   4    18    0.360
4. Scottie Pippen   0   0   2    2    0.040
5. David Robinson   0   0   1    1    0.020

Retro Player of the Year — Hakeem Olajuwon (3)

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Hakeem Olajuwon  17  0  0  0  0   170   1.000
2. David Robinson  0  9  2  2  1   80   0.471
3. Patrick Ewing   0  2  6  2  3    53   0.312
4. Scottie Pippen  0  3  4  0  5   46    0.271
5. Karl Malone  0  2  1  5  2   36   0.212
6. Dikembe Mutombo   0  1  1  3  4   25   0.147
7. Shaquille O’Neal   0  0  2  4  1   23   0.135
8. Charles Barkley   0  0  1  0  0   5   0.029
9. Reggie Miller   0  0  0  1  1   4   0.024

In the prior project, there were 24 votes, with no overlap. These are the aggregated results of the two projects across 41 total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Hakeem Olajuwon  40  1  0  0  0   407   0.993
2. David Robinson  1  21  7  4  5   209   0.510
3. Patrick Ewing   0  5  10  9  9    121   0.295
4. Shaquille O’Neal   0  3  10  10  3   104   0.254
5. Karl Malone  0  7  3  8  8   96   0.234
6. Scottie Pippen  0  3  8  5  11   87    0.212
7. Dikembe Mutombo   0  1  1  3  4   25   0.061
8. Charles Barkley   0  0  2  1  0   13   0.032
9. Reggie Miller   0  0  0  1  1   4   0.010

1995 thread will open shortly.

[ceoofkobefans]

gonna give more brief analysis for this one so bare with me.

POY

1. Hakeem Olajuwon

Think this is pretty clear cut. Hakeem is a top 5 or so offensive player, arguably the best scorer in the league and the best defender in the league, that was the clear best player on the championship team and locked down Patrick Ewing (another top 5 player in the league) to 19 Ppg on 39 TS% in the finals. This is one of the best floor raising displays of all time and I think there's a fairly large gap between him and number 2.

2. David Robinson

2-4 is a pretty close race between 3 all time great bigs but I'll give Drob the edge for his RS dominance although he has a major PO Drop (30.5 IA PTS/75 on +4.9 rTS in the RS to 23.9 IA PTS/75 on -4.8 rTS% in PO) although he did play well in the closeout game 4 of a rather disappointing 1st round lost. He did lead the spurs to a top 5 offense and top 10 defense.

3. Charles Barkley

Barkley followed up his MVP Season and finals run with a similarly impressive season leading the best Offense in the league and an impressive +5.5 offense in the playoffs (2nd among teams to advance past the first round) he also has a solid sample of 17 games missed where the suns go from a 113.2 ORTG (+6.9 rORTG) and a +6.7 NRTG (60 win pace) to a 109.1 ORTG (+2.8 rORTG, 7th in the league) and a -1.4 NRTG (37 win pace) without Barkley, and from 94-96 he has a good sample of 42 games missed where the suns go from a 113.4 ORTG (+6 rORTG) and a +3.9 NRTG (52 win pace) to a 109.6 ORTG (+2.2 rORTG) and a -.3 NRTG (40 win pace) and he has a solid PO run as well partially due to shooting 35% from 3 on 4 attempts per game.

4. Patrick Ewing

Best player on the runner up team and the anchor of the best RS defense by far and the second best PO Defense (-6.7 rDRTG behind the pacers -7.7) and he has a pretty nice PO run outside of the finals (where outside of the scoring drop-off still performed pretty well based on my tracking and analysis). if you put him higher I'd understand it but I'm giving the edge to Chuck and drob more for portability reasons than anything.

5. Scottie Pippen

Could see this going to Malone but Pippen was the best player on a Bulls team that was a top 10 defense (in large part to him) and a fringe top 10 team that just lost the best player in the league and the bulls drop from a +3.9 NRTG to a -.6 NRTG in the 10 games Scottie Pippen missed. He also has a strong playoff showing where the bulls took the knicks to 7 Games in the ECSF.

OPOY (I'll give explanations as asked for)

1. Charles Barkley
2. John Stockton
3. Reggie Miller
HM: Karl Malone

DPOY
1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Patrick Ewing
3. David Robinson
HM: Scottie Pippen