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Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition

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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#141 » by Norseman79 » Sat Dec 7, 2024 7:20 pm

dschroeder01 wrote:
Norseman79 wrote:If we trade Randle, we need a starter or at least two strong role players back.

If we trade NAW it needs to be for a defensive minded PG

If we trade DD it needs to be for a 3pt shooting PG

No matter who we trade, getting a legit backup C as part of it or result of it is huge.

Does anyone think we could land Dejounte Murray? Would Randle and Dillingham be enough for Murray and a 1rst?

MN out: Randle, Dillingham
In: Murray, Robinson-Earl, Matkovic and 25 Milwaukee 1rst (heavily protected)


Murray, Conley
Edwards, NAW, DD
McDaniels, Minott
Reid, Robinson-Earl
Gobert

Would look to add backup 5.
Gives Reid the chance to prove he is worth $$
Wolves could move people/Conley retire after season to resign Naz if needed.

A couple of things.

This isn't a legal trade with the aprons. We can't aggregate players so it would need to be split up into separate trades and NO can't take back more than $3.8M more in trade as they'd be hard capped at the 1st apron. Randle for Murray and Robinson-Earl works as one trade, but then you'd need to trade Dillingham for Jordan Hawkins or more likely their 2 full minimum guys Thies and Green. So that would be Randle and Dilly for Murray, Robinson-Earl, Theis, and Green plus whatever picks. Wolves would have to cut 2 players and eat that tax money. That's really complicated and expensive for the Wolves.

The 2nd thing is why would NO make this deal? They're just completely blowing it up? Randle makes no sense there unless Zion is being dumped in some other trade. Are they prepared to do that during the season? If they're blowing it up, there's no way they'd be giving up any FRP in a deal.

This seems like something that would need to happen in an offseason. That said, I've always been interested in the idea of Murray as a PG next to Ant. Murray was miscast as a SG next to Trae. He's not the kind of defender that can cover bigger guards, but as a PG, I wonder if he can get back to being an above average defender. He could take the smaller guards with Ant taking the bigger bodies. Maybe he could get back to being more of a ballhawk like he was in San Antonio. Murray isn't a true floor general, but he's a functional PG who is a good rebounder for his position. He's improved as a 3 pt shooter. If we could find a way to get him in the offseason, I'd be interested.


The trade is actually legal because we are not aggregating salary to bring back a player. Randall himself covers the cost.

As far as why the pelicans do it, that first round pick is from Milwaukee and it's protected 5 through 30. Essentially speaking it would convey down the road to whatever it's supposed to become. Likely not a first-round pick. New Orleans is rumored to be selling and likely will be unloading people like Ingram and McCallum too. Dillingham gives them the young rookie point guard to pair with the rest of their young roster. Randall gives them an expiring contract that gets Murray off the books sooner. From a New Orleans standpoint, it's blow it up and tank. They roll with Dillingham, Hawkins, Murphy, Jones, and Missi.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#142 » by dschroeder01 » Sat Dec 7, 2024 9:05 pm

Norseman79 wrote:

The trade is actually legal because we are not aggregating salary to bring back a player. Randall himself covers the cost.

As far as why the pelicans do it, that first round pick is from Milwaukee and it's protected 5 through 30. Essentially speaking it would convey down the road to whatever it's supposed to become. Likely not a first-round pick. New Orleans is rumored to be selling and likely will be unloading people like Ingram and McCallum too. Dillingham gives them the young rookie point guard to pair with the rest of their young roster. Randall gives them an expiring contract that gets Murray off the books sooner. From a New Orleans standpoint, it's blow it up and tank. They roll with Dillingham, Hawkins, Murphy, Jones, and Missi.


Ah, didn't know that about the 2nd apron. Thanks. That deal adds a lot of $ for NO though and they're already surely trying to dump salary to avoid the tax. There's no way they pay the tax this year so unless they can shed a lot of salary in other trades, I doubt they'd make any deal that gets them deeper into the tax. As you said though, they may be looking to shake things up. Trading Ingram could be done in a manner that sheds enough salary, but they'd need shed like $8.4M in another deal to get under right?

The Bucks pick is extinguished after this year with it either going to Brooklyn if 5-30 or NO if it's in the top 4. As Milwaukee is very likely to make the playoffs and still less likely to win a top 4 slot in the lottery, the pick is essentially worthless to NO (or us in a trade). So...it's just Randall and Dillingham for Murray basically.

As I said, I'd have interest in Murray. It would nice to see Minott get a shot and then actually show that he could be a rotation guy. Trading Randle would be easier to take if Minott showed he could fill some minutes at the 4.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#143 » by BlacJacMac » Sat Dec 7, 2024 9:20 pm

Norseman79 wrote:
BlacJacMac wrote:Atlanta would have to covet Randle, because Dilly makes very little sense there.


Murray is in new Orleans


1 problem solved already!
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#144 » by Norseman79 » Sat Dec 7, 2024 9:28 pm

dschroeder01 wrote:
Norseman79 wrote:

The trade is actually legal because we are not aggregating salary to bring back a player. Randall himself covers the cost.

As far as why the pelicans do it, that first round pick is from Milwaukee and it's protected 5 through 30. Essentially speaking it would convey down the road to whatever it's supposed to become. Likely not a first-round pick. New Orleans is rumored to be selling and likely will be unloading people like Ingram and McCallum too. Dillingham gives them the young rookie point guard to pair with the rest of their young roster. Randall gives them an expiring contract that gets Murray off the books sooner. From a New Orleans standpoint, it's blow it up and tank. They roll with Dillingham, Hawkins, Murphy, Jones, and Missi.


Ah, didn't know that about the 2nd apron. Thanks. That deal adds a lot of $ for NO though and they're already surely trying to dump salary to avoid the tax. There's no way they pay the tax this year so unless they can shed a lot of salary in other trades, I doubt they'd make any deal that gets them deeper into the tax. As you said though, they may be looking to shake things up. Trading Ingram could be done in a manner that sheds enough salary, but they'd need shed like $8.4M in another deal to get under right?

The Bucks pick is extinguished after this year with it either going to Brooklyn if 5-30 or NO if it's in the top 4. As Milwaukee is very likely to make the playoffs and still less likely to win a top 4 slot in the lottery, the pick is essentially worthless to NO (or us in a trade). So...it's just Randall and Dillingham for Murray basically.

As I said, I'd have interest in Murray. It would nice to see Minott get a shot and then actually show that he could be a rotation guy. Trading Randle would be easier to take if Minott showed he could fill some minutes at the 4.


They actually shed salary in this trade as Murray is locked up for 4 years. Randle will exercise player option and clear 33 million for them.

I would be fine with a second rounder.

Miller and Reid would be who I want at the 4. Minott needs to keep playing the 3 and get more minutes there when Jaden is struggling.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#145 » by Dewey » Sat Dec 7, 2024 10:27 pm

We all know TC is cooking … we all just waiting for the RSVP
Flip response to Love wanting out, "He has no reason to be upset, you're either a part of the problem or a part of the solution"
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#146 » by minimus » Sun Dec 8, 2024 1:37 pm



Vasilije Micic?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#147 » by shrink » Sun Dec 8, 2024 2:51 pm

Klomp wrote:I had forgotten about this from draft night:

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter


It may or may not be true (Drew Lock 2.0?), but it is at least interesting to think about.

Now, on the surface, a trade deadline deal of Nickeil Alexander-Walker for DaRon Holmes (out for season with achilles injury) would be viewed as a clear step back for a franchise and fan base with playoff aspirations. But could this deal help the franchise better balance out the depth chart in order to maximize some of its current players going forward?

It would likely have to be supplemented with either a signing or bumping up minutes for a guy like Minott, Garza or Miller this season. But it would also make room for DiVincenzo to play his more natural off-guard position as well as open up more minutes for Dillingham with the second unit. Trading a soon-to-be free agent for a rookie on the first year of his four-year deal (three of those under $3.5 million) would also greatly help the team's cap sheet.


This is the trade that has intrigued me the most this month, because it has such a big variance in high risk, high return. For example, nobody would give a recent 1st for a guy on an expiring, particularly one that comes off the bench, right? Ridiculous, and MIN should jump all over that for value, right?

On the other hand, after last night, DEN is probably as desperate as they can get, and it would be a good time to approach the Nuggets front office. NAW is exactly what they need, a point of attack defender that would start, and help Jamaal Murray or Westbrook. He’s cheap, which is important since they’ve painted themselves into a corner financially with contracts to MPJ, Murray, and one coming for Aaron Gordon. And he can be extended (if DEN can afford it), so they can contend for a while. Jokic has been as loyal as they come, but after last night, does this trade improve the chances he wants to stay in Denver for the next four years?

But even at this price, can MIN run the risk of trading NAW? Yes, it opens minutes for their longterm solution in DiVincenzo, and gets Dillingham back in the rotation. However, NAW is playing better than nearly anyone on the team, and leads the club in Net Rating. The Wolves value winning this year, and may value it enough to bring him back next season. Worse, this is a trade to the most dangerous team in the Western Conference, with the NBA’s best player. It’s a risky trade that could haunt them this year and for years to come, and we don’t know how Holmes will look after he recovers next year.

As an aside, on the trade board there is a debate about DEN sending an unprotected 2031 to MEM for Santi Aldama. I wonder if MIN could slide into either side of that deal, either taking the pick or Aldama (who also needs a new deal).
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#148 » by Danimals » Sun Dec 8, 2024 4:53 pm

I can’t understand the obsession with trading NAW. If it’s a minutes concern, then trade DDV. NAW is a better player and DDV should be easier to trade due to contract control.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#149 » by winforlose » Sun Dec 8, 2024 5:29 pm

Danimals wrote:I can’t understand the obsession with trading NAW. If it’s a minutes concern, then trade DDV. NAW is a better player and DDV should be easier to trade due to contract control.


You are half right. The obsession is because NAW is the better player. People fear we cannot afford to pay both him and Naz. Moreover, TC just traded Karl for DDV so his career might be in jeopardy if DDV fails here. I mean TC is a terrible GM whose reputation is 100% a function of a 2nd round pick who he passed on in the first round turning into a 4 time MVP. Outside of that, MPJ and Murray wouldn’t have won Denver anything. The Gordon trade was good but it was hardly earth shattering. He just paid what was asked for the hottest player on the trade market that year. Toss in an overpay on Gobert, Finch instructing him to acquire NAW when he backed himself into a corner and was forced to acquire Mike to correct the DLO situation. He whiffed on WMJ and while Minott or Miller might develop that is by no means a given. I could go on, but TC has been steadily breaking a team on the rise that he inherited from Rosas. Trading NAW is about not letting him leave in free agency. That said, I wouldn’t trade either NAW or DDV, just Randle, TC, and Finch.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#150 » by Mattya » Sun Dec 8, 2024 9:15 pm

Wolves Out:Randle
Wolves In: Derrick Jones Jr, Tre Jones, PJ Tucker, Hawks Pick

Spur Out: Tre Jones, Hawks Pick
Spurs In: Terrance Mann

Clippers Out: Terrance Mann, DJJ, PJ Tucker
Clippers In: Randle

Conley, Rob, Jones
Ant, NAW
Mcdaniels, DDV
DJJ, Naz, Minott
Gobert, Naz
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#151 » by Norseman79 » Sun Dec 8, 2024 9:55 pm

Mattya wrote:Wolves Out:Randle
Wolves In: Derrick Jones Jr, Tre Jones, PJ Tucker, Hawks Pick

Spur Out: Tre Jones, Hawks Pick
Spurs In: Terrance Mann

Clippers Out: Terrance Mann, DJJ, PJ Tucker
Clippers In: Randle

Conley, Rob, Jones
Ant, NAW
Mcdaniels, DDV
DJJ, Naz, Minott
Gobert, Naz


Isn't Jones Jr even smaller than McDaniels?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#152 » by Mattya » Sun Dec 8, 2024 10:04 pm

Norseman79 wrote:
Mattya wrote:Wolves Out:Randle
Wolves In: Derrick Jones Jr, Tre Jones, PJ Tucker, Hawks Pick

Spur Out: Tre Jones, Hawks Pick
Spurs In: Terrance Mann

Clippers Out: Terrance Mann, DJJ, PJ Tucker
Clippers In: Randle

Conley, Rob, Jones
Ant, NAW
Mcdaniels, DDV
DJJ, Naz, Minott
Gobert, Naz


Isn't Jones Jr even smaller than McDaniels?


I'm not worried about his size when we can just rotate Naz in.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#153 » by Norseman79 » Sun Dec 8, 2024 11:38 pm

Mattya wrote:
Norseman79 wrote:
Mattya wrote:Wolves Out:Randle
Wolves In: Derrick Jones Jr, Tre Jones, PJ Tucker, Hawks Pick

Spur Out: Tre Jones, Hawks Pick
Spurs In: Terrance Mann

Clippers Out: Terrance Mann, DJJ, PJ Tucker
Clippers In: Randle

Conley, Rob, Jones
Ant, NAW
Mcdaniels, DDV
DJJ, Naz, Minott
Gobert, Naz


Isn't Jones Jr even smaller than McDaniels?


I'm not worried about his size when we can just rotate Naz in.



Tre Jones is the only part I would like...hawks pick is a plus, how protected is it?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#154 » by winforlose » Sun Dec 8, 2024 11:40 pm

Mattya wrote:
Norseman79 wrote:
Mattya wrote:Wolves Out:Randle
Wolves In: Derrick Jones Jr, Tre Jones, PJ Tucker, Hawks Pick

Spur Out: Tre Jones, Hawks Pick
Spurs In: Terrance Mann

Clippers Out: Terrance Mann, DJJ, PJ Tucker
Clippers In: Randle

Conley, Rob, Jones
Ant, NAW
Mcdaniels, DDV
DJJ, Naz, Minott
Gobert, Naz


Isn't Jones Jr even smaller than McDaniels?


I'm not worried about his size when we can just rotate Naz in.


We don’t get a backup C, DJJ is a SF when we have Ant, MCD, NAW, and DDV on the wings. Mann has 0 value with Rudy given the two non shooter rule. This trade is beyond bad for us.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#155 » by shrink » Mon Dec 9, 2024 12:09 am

Danimals wrote:I can’t understand the obsession with trading NAW. If it’s a minutes concern, then trade DDV. NAW is a better player and DDV should be easier to trade due to contract control.

I agree NAW is a better player this season, at least so far. But DDV is a much better fit longterm for Finch’s system. We saw a fraction of that when the inferior Beasley was here - the elite movement shooter just opens up everything on offense. Moreover, we have DDV locked into a discount three year deal, so he is the better longterm play to win over the next three years.

Also, as winforlose mentioned, this terrific play from NAW may be pricing him off the team. As he becomes more and more productive this year, it becomes less and less likely we can afford to make competitive free agent offers to both he and Naz.

There is plenty of reason to just keep NAW, especially if you believe this year is our best for contending. Trading him away for Holmes, who will provide zero production this season, will clearly lower our chances. That’s a legit position. But keeping DDV and adding a young 1st rounder we can afford for multiple years, may improve our chances next year, and guarantees we don’t lose a valuable player for nothing next summer.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#156 » by BlacJacMac » Mon Dec 9, 2024 12:17 am

Mattya wrote:Wolves Out:Randle
Wolves In: Derrick Jones Jr, Tre Jones, PJ Tucker, Hawks Pick

Spur Out: Tre Jones, Hawks Pick
Spurs In: Terrance Mann

Clippers Out: Terrance Mann, DJJ, PJ Tucker
Clippers In: Randle

Conley, Rob, Jones
Ant, NAW
Mcdaniels, DDV
DJJ, Naz, Minott
Gobert, Naz


Is the Hawks pick unprotected? I don’t like any of the players we get at all.

Hopefully we save a bunch of money because we’ll have to cut 2 players after the deal.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#157 » by Danimals » Mon Dec 9, 2024 2:52 am

shrink wrote:
Danimals wrote:I can’t understand the obsession with trading NAW. If it’s a minutes concern, then trade DDV. NAW is a better player and DDV should be easier to trade due to contract control.

I agree NAW is a better player this season, at least so far. But DDV is a much better fit longterm for Finch’s system. We saw a fraction of that when the inferior Beasley was here - the elite movement shooter just opens up everything on offense. Moreover, we have DDV locked into a discount three year deal, so he is the better longterm play to win over the next three years.

Also, as winforlose mentioned, this terrific play from NAW may be pricing him off the team. As he becomes more and more productive this year, it becomes less and less likely we can afford to make competitive free agent offers to both he and Naz.

There is plenty of reason to just keep NAW, especially if you believe this year is our best for contending. Trading him away for Holmes, who will provide zero production this season, will clearly lower our chances. That’s a legit position. But keeping DDV and adding a young 1st rounder we can afford for multiple years, may improve our chances next year, and guarantees we don’t lose a valuable player for nothing next summer.



Ok, let’s say Randle leaves in free agency this summer. How much room under the 2nd apron do you project? What do you project for contracts for Naz and NAW?

I see the second apron projected around $207mil and if Randle leaves, Naz and NAW opt out, we don’t pick up Garza’s option; we will be at about $145mil. Doesn’t that seem like enough to resign Naz and NAW, sign the DET pick, and fill out the roster?
Steph Curry—————Ricky
Michael Jordan———Ant
Lebron James————KG
Kevin Garnett————Love——Naz Reid
Nikola Jokic—————KAT
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#158 » by winforlose » Mon Dec 9, 2024 4:07 am

Danimals wrote:
shrink wrote:
Danimals wrote:I can’t understand the obsession with trading NAW. If it’s a minutes concern, then trade DDV. NAW is a better player and DDV should be easier to trade due to contract control.

I agree NAW is a better player this season, at least so far. But DDV is a much better fit longterm for Finch’s system. We saw a fraction of that when the inferior Beasley was here - the elite movement shooter just opens up everything on offense. Moreover, we have DDV locked into a discount three year deal, so he is the better longterm play to win over the next three years.

Also, as winforlose mentioned, this terrific play from NAW may be pricing him off the team. As he becomes more and more productive this year, it becomes less and less likely we can afford to make competitive free agent offers to both he and Naz.

There is plenty of reason to just keep NAW, especially if you believe this year is our best for contending. Trading him away for Holmes, who will provide zero production this season, will clearly lower our chances. That’s a legit position. But keeping DDV and adding a young 1st rounder we can afford for multiple years, may improve our chances next year, and guarantees we don’t lose a valuable player for nothing next summer.



Ok, let’s say Randle leaves in free agency this summer. How much room under the 2nd apron do you project? What do you project for contracts for Naz and NAW?

I see the second apron projected around $207mil and if Randle leaves, Naz and NAW opt out, we don’t pick up Garza’s option; we will be at about $145mil. Doesn’t that seem like enough to resign Naz and NAW, sign the DET pick, and fill out the roster?


Say NAW is 15 and Naz is 25, I don’t see why not.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#159 » by minimus » Mon Dec 9, 2024 12:24 pm

minimus wrote:

Vasilije Micic?


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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#160 » by Norseman79 » Mon Dec 9, 2024 1:11 pm

So how long do we give DD?
Also, we can't have three players or even four players on the court for extended amounts of time that are zero threat to score. This is why I've brought up trades for Poole and Simons... People hate them, I get it, I'm not a huge fan myself, but both of them are pretty much instant offense and would take a ton of pressure off of Ant to create.

1- DD or NAW need to go,
2- Randle needs to go
3- If Minott is too dumb to play, he needs to go...no excuse for him to not be playing unless he is too dim to learn plays at this point. It's either Minott's brain or Finch's stubbornness.

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