Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE — Hakeem Olajuwon

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Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE — Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#1 » by AEnigma » Fri Dec 6, 2024 10:44 pm

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1994-95.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 18:00PM EST on Monday, December 9th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Contrarian votes can be and have been sincere, but they look a lot more sincere when you take the time to fully present your reasoning rather than transparently pretend nothing is amiss.
Doctor MJ wrote:Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

The rules here are that you've got to use the same type of thinking for all 5 votes. I understand putting more thought into #1 than #5, but I don't want PJ Brown votes. Voters do Brown type votes to give a guy an honorable mention. Makes sense if people only care about who finishes 1st, but I've been clear that I want to measure more than that. I've been trying to encourage literal "honorable mentions" to serve that purpose, and I'd ask that people use that as the way they honor guys who did something special but who aren't actually a top 5 guy that year.

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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#2 » by trelos6 » Fri Dec 6, 2024 10:48 pm

OPOY

1.Shaquille O’Neal. 30 pp75 on +4.5 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +6.9. Yes, he gets better in later seasons, but young Shaq being fed by a great lead guard is too much for the league.

2.John Stockton. 16.4 pp75 on +10.8 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +6.1. The best passer in ‘95 and arguably the best playmaker since Price was injured.

3.Anfernee Hardaway. Penny was a top 10 creator and passer, scored 21.1 pp75 on +5.6 rTS%, and drove a +6.9 Ortg. Narrowly beats out David Robinson, Karl Malone, Gary Payton.

HM: Reggie Miller. 23.9 pp75 +7.7rTS%, in the playoffs he went up to 28 pp75 on +9 rTS%. I didn’t know how to evaluate his gravity (read: need to watch more). He wasn’t a great passer, so all his offensive value is coming from scoring extremely efficiently and using his gravity to bend the defense. I may adjust him higher based on further comments I read in this thread.


DPOY

1.David Robinson. Gets some help from Rodman, but Spurs are a top 5 defense in the regular season, and the 2nd best defense in the playoffs.

2.Patrick Ewing. Knicks were always an ensemble cast defensively, but Ewing was the anchor, and the Knicks were the best defense all season.

3.Hakeem Olajuwon. Hard to go past Hakeem. Strongly considered Pippen, but I think the bigs inherently have more value defensively.



POY

1.David Robinson. Best player in the regular season, and then was pretty good in the playoffs (one great series). He was outplayed by Hakeem in the WCF, but his regular season gap is too large. +3.73 OPIPM, +3.38 DPIPM. +7.1 PIPM. 22.11 Wins Added. 27.7 pp75 on +5.9 rTS% in the regular season. I think if you give him a few more competent pieces, he would have played a LOT better in these peak playoff runs.

2.Hakeem Olajuwon. Decent in the regular season, but then ramped it up in the playoffs. Was fantastic in the WCF vs Robinson. 26.9 pp75 on +2 rTS% in the regular season, and then upped his volume in the post season while maintaining the efficiency. +2.39 OPIPM, +2.71 DPIPM, +5.11 PIPM. 18.3 Wins Added. Got some help from Drexler who was an All NBA level player, but still dominated many big named rivals in the playoffs. Would be #1 if he had a better regular season.

3.Shaquille O’Neal, My OPOY. +4.55 OPIPM, +1.16 DPIPM. +5.71 PIPM, 18.99 Wins Added. Scored with great volume and decent efficiency. If he hit his FT’s better (5 missed in G3 loss by 3 pts, 3 missed in 2 pt G1 loss), then maybe it’s not a 4-0, but he was still outplayed by Hakeem.

4.Karl Malone. Malone gets the nod over Stockton. 27.2 pp75 on +4.7 rTS%, with good defense. +3.78 OPIPM, +1.5 DPIPM. +5.28 PIPM. 16.34 Wins Added.

5.Scottie Pippen. Peak Pippen as a 2 way player, IMO. +2.56 OPIPM, +2.83 DPIPM. +5.38 PIPM. 17.24 Wins Added. 22 pp75 on +1.6 rTS%.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#3 » by Djoker » Fri Dec 6, 2024 10:58 pm

Given Hakeem's defensive decline this year, maybe it's conceivable not to have him as #1 but still find it very difficult.

Anyways, here is my post with detailed tracking of the 1995 Finals.

viewtopic.php?t=2370986

The 1995 Finals featured an epic big man duel between young Shaquille O'Neal and Hakeem Olajuwon. This is my tracking of the two big men in the series and how they fared against each other.

Image

For much of the series, the two men guarded each other. In fact, for most of the time they were on the floor, they were matched up unless one of them was in foul trouble. In those instances, Orlando used Horace Grant on Hakeem and Houston used Charles Jones on Shaq. On a few possessions, both Hakeem and Shaq were switched onto other smaller players who contested them.

Apart from shooting, the tracking also includes fouls drawn and turnovers but I only included turnovers caused by the other player. For example, if Hakeem drew a charge on Shaq or stripped Shaq of the ball, I counted those but if Shaq threw a bad pass that got intercepted by Kenny Smith, I didn't count that.



Game 1: Orlando 118 - 120 Houston (OT)

Shaq: +6 ON, -8 OFF
Hakeem: -7 ON, +9 OFF

When Both ON: Orlando 90 - 77 Houston

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 19 points, 7/12 shooting, 5/7 FT, 4 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Hakeem: 19 points, 8/17 shooting, 3/5 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 1 turnover



Game 2: Orlando 106 - 117 Houston

Shaq: -3 ON, -8 OFF
Hakeem: +5 ON, +6 OFF

When Both ON: Orlando 92 - 93 Houston

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 18 points, 8/15 shooting, 2/2 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 1 turnover
Hakeem: 18 points, 8/19 shooting, 2/5 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 0 turnovers



Game 3: Houston 106 - 103 Orlando

Shaq: +1 ON, -4 OFF
Hakeem: +4 ON, -1 OFF

When Both ON: Houston 96 - 95 Orlando

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 23 points, 10/16 shooting, 3/4 FT, 4 fouls drawn, 1 turnover
Hakeem: 16 points, 7/20 shooting, 2/3 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 0 turnovers



Game 4: Houston 113 - 101 Orlando

Shaq: -16 ON +4 OFF
Hakeem: +15 ON -3 OFF

When Both ON: Houston 106 - 87 Orlando

When Defending Each Other
Shaq: 18 points, 9/16 shooting, 0/0 FT, 3 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Hakeem: 17 points, 7/17 shooting, 2/2 FT, 2 fouls drawn, 2 turnovers *one 3pt make



Series Summary

Scoring Margin: Houston +28

Shaq: -12 ON -16 OFF
Hakeem: +17 ON +11 OFF

When Both ON: Houston +7

Per 100 Possessions

Shaq ON: 111.8 ORtg, 115.2 DRtg, -3.4 Net Rtg
Hakeem ON: 115.3 ORtg, 110.5 DRtg, +4.8 Net Rtg

Shaq OFF: 89.3 ORtg, 136.9 DRtg, -47.6 Net Rtg
Hakeem OFF: 134.9 ORtg, 104.0 DRtg, +30.9 Net Rtg

Shaq ON-OFF: +44.2 Net Rtg
Hakeem ON-OFF: -26.1 Net Rtg



Series Totals - Man Defense

Hakeem
Defended by Shaq: 70 points, 44.0 %TS (30/73 FG, 9/15 FT), 10 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Defended by Grant: 42 points, 62.6 %TS (18/30 FG, 6/8 FT), 4 fouls drawn, 2 turnovers
Defended by Others/Undefended: 19 points, 66.3 %TS (8/13 FG, 3/3 FT), 4 fouls drawn

Shaq
Defended by Hakeem: 78 points, 59.3 %TS (34/60 FG, 10/13 FT), 13 fouls drawn, 8 turnovers
Defended by Jones: 19 points, 60.4 %TS (6/10 FG, 7/13 FT), 8 fouls drawn, 3 turnovers
Defended by Others/Undefended: 15 points, 67.9 %TS (4/4 FG, 7/16 FT), 9 fouls drawn



Conclusions:

In the direct matchup, Shaq got the better of Hakeem scoring more on much higher efficiency and drawing more fouls on the other. Although Hakeem forced more turnovers on Shaq than vice versa, it's hard to say that Hakeem didn't lose the matchup.

it was a contrast of styles with Shaq overwhelming Hakeem with raw strength and athleticism and Hakeem getting the better of Shaq in face up situations beating him off the dribble and with his jukes, spins, and dream shakes.

As for who was the better overall player in the series, I'd probably call it a wash. Hakeem dominated when defended by Horace Grant who is a really good defender more so than Shaq dominated Charles Jones. Hakeem also had an edge in overall team defense although Shaq was quite good in this area himself. Shaq not only did a great job defending Hakeem but he blocked more shots than Olajuwon in the series and was very active defensively.

Ultimately the play of these two monsters isn't what determined the series. Excluding Drexler and Penny who in my opinion also played each other close to a draw, the supporting cast of the Rockets completely outplayed that of Orlando. Anderson after infamously missing the four free throws at the end of regulation in Game 1 was shook and never the same afterwards. Dennis Scott's shooting was off all series and he gave the team virtually nothing as well and since Anderson and Scott averaged around 40 mpg, that hurt the Magic a lot. On the other hand, the likes of Horry, Cassell, Elie and Kenny Smith were amazingly clutch, devastating in transition and shot the lights out from 3pt range. It was the Rockets' role players that won this series.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#4 » by One_and_Done » Fri Dec 6, 2024 11:04 pm

trelos6 wrote:OPOY

1.Shaquille O’Neal. 30 pp75 on +4.5 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +6.9. Yes, he gets better in later seasons, but young Shaq being fed by a great lead guard is too much for the league.

2.John Stockton. 16.4 pp75 on +10.8 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +6.1. The best passer in ‘95 and arguably the best playmaker since Price was injured.

3.Anfernee Hardaway. Penny was a top 10 creator and passer, scored 21.1 pp75 on +5.6 rTS%, and drove a +6.9 Ortg. Narrowly beats out David Robinson, Karl Malone, Gary Payton.

HM: Reggie Miller. 23.9 pp75 +7.7rTS%, in the playoffs he went up to 28 pp75 on +9 rTS%. I didn’t know how to evaluate his gravity (read: need to watch more). He wasn’t a great passer, so all his offensive value is coming from scoring extremely efficiently and using his gravity to bend the defense. I may adjust him higher based on further comments I read in this thread.


DPOY

1.David Robinson. Gets some help from Rodman, but Spurs are a top 5 defense in the regular season, and the 2nd best defense in the playoffs.

2.Patrick Ewing. Knicks were always an ensemble cast defensively, but Ewing was the anchor, and the Knicks were the best defense all season.

3.Hakeem Olajuwon. Hard to go past Hakeem. Strongly considered Pippen, but I think the bigs inherently have more value defensively.



POY

1.David Robinson. Best player in the regular season, and then was pretty good in the playoffs (one great series). He was outplayed by Hakeem in the WCF, but his regular season gap is too large. +3.73 OPIPM, +3.38 DPIPM. +7.1 PIPM. 22.11 Wins Added. 27.7 pp75 on +5.9 rTS% in the regular season. I think if you give him a few more competent pieces, he would have played a LOT better in these peak playoff runs.

2.Hakeem Olajuwon. Decent in the regular season, but then ramped it up in the playoffs. Was fantastic in the WCF vs Robinson. 26.9 pp75 on +2 rTS% in the regular season, and then upped his volume in the post season while maintaining the efficiency. +2.39 OPIPM, +2.71 DPIPM, +5.11 PIPM. 18.3 Wins Added. Got some help from Drexler who was an All NBA level player, but still dominated many big named rivals in the playoffs. Would be #1 if he had a better regular season.

3.Shaquille O’Neal, My OPOY. +4.55 OPIPM, +1.16 DPIPM. +5.71 PIPM, 18.99 Wins Added. Scored with great volume and decent efficiency. If he hit his FT’s better (5 missed in G3 loss by 3 pts, 3 missed in 2 pt G1 loss), then maybe it’s not a 4-0, but he was still outplayed by Hakeem.

4.Karl Malone. Malone gets the nod over Stockton. 27.2 pp75 on +4.7 rTS%, with good defense. +3.78 OPIPM, +1.5 DPIPM. +5.28 PIPM. 16.34 Wins Added.

5.Scottie Pippen. Peak Pippen as a 2 way player, IMO. +2.56 OPIPM, +2.83 DPIPM. +5.38 PIPM. 17.24 Wins Added. 22 pp75 on +1.6 rTS%.

These are the same 5 I'll likely have, buy still debating if I can really put D Rob over Hakeem.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#5 » by lessthanjake » Fri Dec 6, 2024 11:16 pm

Seems to me like the top three are, in some order: Shaq, Robinson, and Hakeem.

There’s probably a valid argument for any of them, and it depends on exactly how you weight things. The ranking of those three in the RS is probably Robinson, Shaq, and Hakeem in that order. But the ranking in the playoffs is probably the opposite. Which leaves a valid argument for any of them. Personally, I’d give it to Hakeem, because winning the title with a genuinely fantastic individual playoff run weighs super heavily to me. It would take something truly extraordinary to overcome that, and I think the other two fall short of doing that. I think if one were to make the argument for Shaq, it’d basically be that he was better than Hakeem in the RS, and he also had a great postseason and while his team lost easily to the Rockets, Shaq himself wasn’t really outplayed by Hakeem in that series so it shouldn’t weigh against him. And I think if one were to make the argument for Robinson, it’d basically be that his regular season was so much better than Hakeem’s that being clearly less good in the playoffs shouldn’t overcome the RS gap, especially with a weaker team. Neither of those arguments is enough for me to get over the really high bar to overcome what Hakeem brings to the table here, though.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#6 » by Djoker » Sat Dec 7, 2024 10:41 pm

Come on y'all. Get in here!

Reggie had a stupendous year, even much better than 1994. I think he has a good chance of making the ballot for me.

Malone and the Jazz also very strong with a not-shameful 1st round exit to Houston. Jazz were a +7.76 SRS team in the RS.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#7 » by B-Mitch 30 » Sun Dec 8, 2024 4:46 am

This season was the first of three where the three-point line was shortened significantly. The question is, which players were best equipped to take advantage of this change, and which ones actually did? Obviously we should look for players who were also good at shooting threes and twos, and attempted a lot of the former, which using Stathead, gives the following list from 1992-1994:

Spoiler:
1992-1993
Dan Majerle 438 Attempts 38.1%
Reggie Miller 419 Attempts 39.9%
Danny Ainge 372 Attempts 40.3%
Hersey Hawkins 307 Attempts 39.7%
Dale Ellis 297 Attempts 40.1%
Mark Price 293 Attempts 41.6%
Craig Ehlo 244 Attempts 38.1%
Scott Skiles 235 Attempts 34%
Brad Lohaus 230 Attempts 37%
Kenny Smith 219 Attempts 43.8%
John Stockton 187 Attempts 38.5%
Dana Barros 169 Attempts 37.9%
B.J. Armstrong 139 Attempts 45.3%
Kevin Gamble 139 Attempts 37.4%
Chris Mullin 133 Attempts 45.1%
Mitch Richmond 130 Attempts 36.9%
Mario Elie 129 Attempts 34.9%
Rex Chapman 116 Attempts 37.1%
Ricky Pierce 113 Attempts 37.2%
Derrick McKey 112 Attempts 35.7%
Blue Edwards 106 Attempts 34.9%
Sean Elliott 104 Attempts 35.6%

1993-1994
Dana Barros 354 Attempts 38.1%
Glen Rice 346 Attempts 38.2%
Dale Ellis 332 Attempts 39.5%
Mark Price 297 Attempts 39.7%
Reggie Miller 292 Attempts 42.1%
Steve Smith 262 Attempts 34.7%
Craig Ehlo 221 Attempts 34.8%
Kenny Smith 220 Attempts 40.5%
Jeff Hornacek 208 Attempts 33.7%
Mario Elie 167 Attempts 33.5%
Rex Chapman 165 Attempts 38.8%
Spud Webb 164 Attempts 33.5%
Chris Mullin 151 Attempts 36.4%
Isaiah Rider 150 Attempts 36%
Chris Morris 147 Attempts 36.1%
Hubert Davis 132 Attempts 40.2%
Steve Kerr 124 Attempts 41.9%
Blue Edwards 106 Attempts 35.8%


To make a long story short, of these players, only Reggie Miller, Dan Majerle, Hersey Hawkins, John Stockton, Kenny Smith, B.J. Armstrong, Mitch Richmond, Mario Elie, Derrick McKey, Sean Elliott, Jeff Hornacek, Isaiah Rider, Hubert Davis, and Steve Kerr had particularly good seasons this year.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Reggie Miller

Besides somewhat obviously being the player based on the prior data who was in the best position to take advantage of the line being shortened, and did his best to do so, Reggie had a great postseason, raising his scoring and efficiency immensely, and nearly taking the Pacers to the Finals.

2. David Robinson

The Admiral deservedly won MVP this year, with the Spurs possessing the most well rounded offense in the NBA, and Robinson having a good playoff run. Despite his loss to Hakeem in the Conference Finals, Robinson still had some good performances, and certainly gave San Antonio the opportunity to beat Houston.

3. Shaquille O’Neal

Once again, Shaq’s results speak for themselves. The Diesel led the league in scoring for the first time, and guided the Magic to the Finals, where despite losing in a sweep Shaq played about as well as could be expected.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Hakeem Olajuwon

Hakeem’s regular season wasn’t as good as last year’s, but I’m willing to chalk that up to the anemia problem he had due to taking too many anti inflammatories, which caused him to miss 10 games. His playoff performance has already been gone over at length, and is deservedly regarded as legendary, as Hakeem won his last championship.

2. David Robinson

Not far behind Hakeem was Robinson, who had his last season being among the league leaders in steals, something the rest of the Spurs' otherwise excellent defense was bad at.

3. Chris Dudley

Unlike the Spurs, the Trail Blazers were above average at creating turnovers, and Dudley was their best shot blocker and rebounder, with the team as a whole leading the NBA in defensive rebounding percentage.

Player of the Year

1. Reggie Miller

No one will confuse Reggie with Tony Allen, but Rick Barry’s stat books from this period say his defense improved in 1992-1993, and while Rick says Miller was prone to taking possessions off this season, he also says he turned it up in the playoffs, as evidenced by his steal which set up his famous eight points in ten seconds performance. Larry Bird, who was a former opponent and his coach in the late 90’s, also said Reggie was a good defender for what it’s worth.

2. Hakeem Olajuwon

In addition to beating Shaq and David Robinson, two of the best centers of all time, Hakeem had to defeat the Jazz and Suns, one future and one past Finals team, respectively. The Rockets had to play 22 games to win it all, a record that stood until the 2007-2008 Celtics. Unlike the Celtics however, the Rockets were a low seed, and needed everything Hakeem had to give to win the championship.

3. David Robinson

If it weren’t for his loss to Hakeem, the Admiral would probably be number one, as the best two-way player in the league.

4. Shaquille O’Neal

A good argument can be made Shaq was better than Robinson this year, though I’m deducting points because of his abysmal free throw shooting.

5. Gary Payton

The Supersonics had one of the best offenses and defenses in the NBA this season, and Payton was their primary scorer and passer, and a decent rebounder on both ends of the court. His defensive reputation is a little overrated, but on the whole, I think he added a lot on that front.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#8 » by One_and_Done » Sun Dec 8, 2024 4:49 am

I don't know where I'll have Reggie, but it certainly won't be 2nd. I doubt I'll even have him top 5. The top 3 are likely some order of Hakeem, D.Rob & Shaq, with Malone another sure-fire top 5 guy.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#9 » by Hook_Em » Sun Dec 8, 2024 5:28 am

95’ playoffs:

33 PPG
10.3 RPG
4.5 APG
2.8 BPG
1.2 SPG
725 points
576 shot attempts

Beat Malone, Barkley, Robinson and Shaq. Finals MVP.

Obviously #1 player this year. GOOD NIGHT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#10 » by LA Bird » Sun Dec 8, 2024 5:15 pm

The Rockets title run will probably be the main determining factor for the placings of the top players so let's have a closer look at each series:

3-2 Jazz, +4.0 MOV, 120.5 Ortg, 116.0 Drtg
4-3 Suns, +0.4 MOV, 115.2 ORtg, 114.8 DRtg
4-2 Spurs, +1.7 MOV, 109.8 ORtg, 108.0 DRtg
4-0 Magic, +7.0 MOV, 116.6 ORtg, 109.5 DRtg

Might come as a surprise but the Suns was actually the closest series, determined by a single point in G7. KJ was the best player for the series overall (28/4/9 on 66% TS) and the final game (46/3/10 on 65% TS) but with half of an injured RS, he is not in POY conversation. Barkley missed 14 games, didn't have particularly strong impact signals (+6.8 on/off), and was limited by injuries towards the end of the playoffs. At best he gets the last spot but he is a lot closer to being out of the top 5 than a challenge to the true contenders. So that leaves us, coincidentally, with the top 3 MVP candidates that season (Robinson, Shaq, Malone) for comparison with Hakeem.

Robinson is known for getting individually dominated by Hakeem in the 1995 playoffs but basketball is not a 1 on 1 sport. On a team level, the Spurs held the Rockets to 7 points below other teams in the playoffs. If Wilt dropped 40 on Russell but his team was locked up, do we judge Russell on how much he let his individual matchup score or how much he limited the opponent team's overall scoring? Obviously, the caveat here is that Russell won and Robinson didn't - we probably won't care about Russell's defense as much if he let Wilt drop 40 and lost. But considering the series would be tied 3-3 going back to San Antonio for G7 if not for a Horry game winner, this was a close series given the difference in teammate quality. Rodman is Robinson's most notable teammate but this was the infamous season where he:
- Missed 1/3 of the season with a negligible 0.1 SRS dropoff
- Fought with the coach enough to get benched in the playoffs (Spurs held Lakers to 71 points that game without him)
- Left Horry open for the aforementioned game winning jumper because he was more focused on getting rebounds
Robinson got outplayed this series but I don't think he got dominated that badly despite the individual 1v1 numbers.

Shaq vs Hakeem in the 1995 Finals is a rare historic series where we have hand tracked data from multiple posters. There are some slight discrepancies in the results but in both studies, Shaq dominated the 1v1 scoring matchup with equal volume on around 15% TS higher efficiency. He also had a positive on-court +/- in half of the games and the on/off after Orlando went 0-3 was:

Shaq: +4 on, -20 off, +24 net
Hakeem: +2 on, +14 off, -12 net

It could easily have been a 2-1 or even a 3-0 lead for Orlando with the bench production being switched. And that is before we even discuss shooting luck. Shaq drew more double teams (significantly so after G1) and generated easier looks for his teammates only for them to miss. The Magic's two volume 3pt shooters both disappeared with Dennis Scott going 7-29 for 24% and Nick Anderson melting down after the 4 missed FTs in G1 to only contribute 9 ppg on 39% TS after that. For the series, Shaq shot 7.3 TS% above the rest of his team while Hakeem shot 8.9 TS% below for a 16 TS% difference. To be fair to Hakeem, not all the numbers are this one-sided towards Shaq. For example, Hakeem forced 5 more turnovers on Shaq than vice versa. But that comes out to around 1 more turnover a game and I don't see much else that favors Hakeem. Turnover efficiency matters too but the magnitude of Hakeem's lead there falls short of Shaq's in shooting efficiency and shooting luck disadvantage. Hakeem's most obvious advantage is simply PPG which many people used in the past before efficiency became a thing but scoring 19 more total points on 35 more (TS) attempts is not actually great. Personally, I would lean towards giving the edge for this series to Shaq.

Malone is generally overlooked because the Jazz got eliminated in the first round this year but he low key had a great performance against the champion Rockets. 30/13/4 on 55% TS averages for the series and the Jazz lost by only 4 in the series deciding game where Malone had a game high 35 points on 59% TS. He averaged more points and rebounds in his series against the Rockets than Shaq did. Being eliminated in the first round is generally a bad look but this is not the usual situation where a team faced a top opponent in R1 because of their poor RS. The Jazz won 60 games and was +7.8 SRS. It was simply bad luck to not only have a 6th seed champion but also being dropped to the 3rd seed because of arbitrary seeding rules for division winners. Many voters might still penalize Malone anyway for a first round exit but for me, losing to the eventual champion under such circumstances is not a super big deal. Especially with Drexler exploding for 34/7/5 on 80% TS in the 3 wins, Kenny Smith turning into a scoring machine against Stockton for the second year in a row, and Stockton himself vanishing in G5 when the series was within their grasp (12/1/5 on 38% TS). If Stockton had played close to Drexler's level as a #2 this series, the Jazz would have come out on top. Many people get fooled by the RS efficiency and accolades and hype Stockton up as a borderline top 5 guy when he really wasn't at that level.

What does this all mean? I am not sure myself honestly. The Rockets repeated as champion without HCA and there is a historical precedent for the leader of such team to go #1 POY (1969 Russell) but it's not quite the same. 69 Celtics were #2 in SRS at 0.1 behind the leader and would be #1 in games Russell played. 95 Rockets were #11 in SRS and would be #9 in games Hakeem played. The Celtics were the #1 defense whereas the Rockets were just above league average (12th of 27 teams). Russell had a good case as the best player in the regular season already - Hakeem doesn't. He can make up for it with a dominant title run like the 2001 Lakers but as shown above, all of the series were pretty close and Hakeem sometimes even had better teammate support. I don't think the Rockets come out of the first round already without the Drexler trade or if there had been a Drexler/Stockton swap. Does that mean Hakeem is worse than Malone? Not necessarily, because the better player can be on a losing team. But if that's the argument, why not Shaq over Hakeem despite him losing the Finals? The signature moment for Hakeem this title run was the WCF but that was a Horry jumper from being tied 3-3. The Jazz were actually the much bigger kryptonite for the Spurs in the 90s and yet most voters didn't rank Malone above Robinson last year because of the regular season gap. So in a season where the RS gap had only widened and Robinson had a better playoffs performance than last year, does it not make sense to have him #1? I'll decide on the final order after reading what others have to say but I am just putting my thoughts out there first since this thread is otherwise a bit dead at the moment.

For the 5th spot, I think I'll go with Scottie Pippen. He got plenty of love last season because of 55 wins but this season is more impressive to me. Grant leaves for the Magic and Pippen carries the Bulls to 3.8 SRS (pre MJ) and #2 defense without any notable defensive teammates while leading the team in all five major statistical categories. Robinson was the only player with both a higher on and on/off in the regular season. Jordan returns towards the end of the season to lift the Bulls even higher but they lose in the second round to a Finals team just like last year. Reggie reached G7 of ECF again with even better postseason numbers this time so I also see the argument for him here. But Smits was actually the best scorer in the Knicks series (23ppg on 65% TS) and he also had the best on/off for the team this year due to improved backcourt depth (Mark Jackson). From an impact perspective, Reggie took a step back while Pippen improved. Ewing and Barkley got some MVP votes but both were injured in the playoffs. Knicks were already much weaker than last year in the regular season in SRS and rDRtg (still #1 though) and Ewing came alive too late in the Pacers series to save them. Barkley had a strong first round but then knee injuries limited him considerably towards the end of the Rockets series. Suns had one of the best RS record but they went 10-4 without him and +/- data had Pippen comfortably better in on, off, and net. Penny could be in the discussion too but I prefer Pippen still for this season at least.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#11 » by AEnigma » Sun Dec 8, 2024 6:08 pm

The Infamous1 wrote:
bastillon wrote:those results are vastly different if you count out 2nd half of G2. I actually calculated it back in the day and Shaq's per 36 scoring for the entire series without that half was like 20 ppg @ 54% TS or something like that. 20 pts can change everything on a 4-game sample.

Halftime game 2
Hakeem 22 pts/8 Boards
Shaq 10 pts/6 boards
Rockets up 20

Final rockets by 11
Shaq 33 / 12 / 7 (23 in 2nd half)
Hakeem 34 / 11 / 2 (12 in 2nd half)
Double Clutch wrote:Hakeem took 62 jumpers in this series meaning that 53.4% of his FGA were jumpers which is safe to say wasn't the norm for him even though the jumpshot was a major part of his arsenal. I had a quote from Rudy T before the series started but I can't seem to find it anymore but as you can see below, Mario Elie talks about how they wanted Hakeem to step out more so it took Shaq away from the paint to negate Shaq's shot blocking and presence in the middle which has generally been a big factor as Shaq has always been a great paint defender.

"maybe try to get Hakeem outside a little bit more to take Shaq away from the basket so if guys cut, there will be no shot-blocking and that leaves the boards open for a couple of offensive rebounds," Houston's Mario Elie said.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/463156/HELP-IN-PLANS-FOR-SUPERSTARS.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is something that is evident on several possessions over the course of the series but especially in the second half of game 2. A journalist talks about it below and I'll give a few specific examples as well.
It won't matter which of the Rocket point guards step up if the Magic keeps making the tactical mistake of single-covering Olajuwon, who is having one of the game's all-time postseason runs with a 32.9-point average in 20 playoff games.
The Houston center's early outburst virtually eliminated the shot blocking of Shaquille O'Neal, who had 33 points but no snuffs.As the game progressed, Olajuwon drifted farther out on the wings and his Magic counterpart had to stick with him. The lack of interior defense made the Magic easy prey for Rocket penetrators Cassell and Clyde Drexler.
In fact, it was Drexler's one-on-one offense that effectively countered Orlando's desperate pressure defense down the stretch. With O'Neal looking on helplessly, Drexler delivered 10 of his 23 points with a variety of slashing moves to the hoop.
"It's been tried before," Smith said of the Magic's decision not to double Olajuwon. "I think that's how we got out to the big lead. He was being played one-on-one and he didn't miss a shot, basically. That put a lot of pressure on them at the offensive end.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19950610&slug=2125564" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For example, in the game 2 link I posted above, fast forward to the 1:04:00 mark and you'll see Hakeem positioned behind the 3 pt line and due to illegal defense rules, Shaq is forced to come out and guard him above the foul line unless he really commits a hard double because if he would've floated around or positioned himself below the foul line, he would've been illegal. In that play, Drexler posts up Anderson and is able to spin and drive past him for the score without any shot blocking threat. This is an intangible quality which the stats won't show but Hakeem is helping the team offense here in an indirect sense. Another example is the possession at the 1:33:34 mark with Cassell isolating on the left side of the court with Hakeem spacing himself on the right wing and Cassell is able to penetrate inside and draw the foul without Shaq really being able to challenge the shot. You see the same thing at the 1:36:27 mark with Houston spacing/overloading themselves on one side of the court so Drexler can just get a clearout isolation on the other side and he's able to go inside with the Magic being unable to provide help in time due to Houston's dangerous perimeter shooting as well as the illegal defense rules. This clearly has a certain amount of value to me as he's drawing Shaq away from the basket and opening up the middle for his teammates. Basically, floor spacing is a very valuable asset to have since it can make the game easier for your teammates. I'd also some of it has to do with the illegal defense rules hindering Orlando's ability to play effective help defense in this situation.

Another example of how Hakeem's spacing helped the rest of the team from game 4.

8:55 mark in the video below. Rockets run a PnR between Drexler and Horry and they get the switch with Grant on Drexler. You'll see Hakeem space himself along the weakside/right wing where Shaq is forced to come out and guard him. Drexler isolates vs Grant from the 3 pt line, is able to beat him off the dribble with ease and nobody is there to challenge Drexler in the lane. Hakeem is basically making it easier for his teammates by pulling Shaq out of the paint.



0:12 mark in the video below. They show a replay of the play above and listen to what Matt Guokas says, a problem the Magic have been having with Sam Cassell and Drexler getting beat off the dribble and nobody shuts down the lane.



Something else you have to consider when comparing the volume of their shot attempts is Hakeem's diverse repertoire does allow him to be more effective in terms of creating his own shot and often negate, evade or split the double team (couple of examples in a Hakeem game 1 highlight video below) and he was also more aggressive in terms of looking for his shot as he often made his move quickly instead of waiting for the double team.



1:05 - Example of Hakeem going to the baseline turnaround which can be used to evade the double team. Shaq's one hand baseline turnaround wasn't quite developed yet in regards to consistency, range or accuracy. He didn't feel comfortable shooting it. Hakeem could and would go to the baseline turnaround throughout the series, a shot that isn't particularly high percentage but he can use it to turn away from the double.

3:30 - Grant goes to double down on Hakeem, he sees the double coming, turns baseline away from the double and is able to get the bucket and the foul.

We also have to keep in mind Hakeem's ability to hit the perimeter jumpshot also negates double teams allowing him to shoot more often and take on either a bigger role or a more varied role depending on what the team wants to do strategically. I see some people saying "well, Hakeem took 29 shots compared to Shaq's 18" so you have to analyze their skillsets and find a reasoning as to why that occurred. Shaq, on the other hand, could have his shot attempts limited a bit by quick double teams as he did not quite have the skill-set to break down double teams or the jumper to step out and beat them which could often force him into a passive rhythm. By a passive rhythm, I mean there were instances you'd notice he wouldn't look for his shot at all and he'd pass the ball before the double team would even get there since he was so programmed to do so. For the most part, he did do a great job passing out of the double teams but at times, when his team would need a bucket, that could be a factor though I'm not really criticizing him for finding the open man as he's making the appropriate decision in theory. And another thing you could say in defense of Shaq is it's easier to force a low-post player to give the ball up if you double team him on the catch as you haven't initiated your move or put the ball on the floor yet which is what the Rockets did while the Magic switched it up more often in terms of the angles they came at, the timing as they'd sometimes double him on the catch or during his move although you can also say, that can at times confuse an offensive player too since you don't know how the defense is going to play you at this particular possession and you aren't able to get a consistent rhythm and feel in terms of how to react to the defense. I also don't think Shaq's game had fully developed yet in terms of offensive skill although he had really improved compared to his rookie and second year since he could hit the one hand turnaround occasionally, had better range and touch on his jump hook, was more effective with the drop-step to the baseline and read the double teams a LOT better. He'd peak during the 3 peat where his footwork would continue to improve, his low-post game was more diverse while obviously having the brute strength and physical dominance (also added weight).

I'd also say Hakeem's ability to face up on the perimeter sort of skews the percentage of double teams they saw. I'd vouch those numbers would be closer if you strictly looked at how much they were double teamed with their back to the basket.

Another thing I'd like to touch on is the issue regarding Shaq's "stat-padding" in game 2 which was discussed earlier. I don't think it's fair to say Shaq was stat-padding because it's a ridiculous assertion to expect a team to give up at halftime in a game of this magnitude. If anything, he deserves credit for playing hard and doing his best to bring Orlando back into the game but it's also not exactly unusual to see the team with a big lead coast while the losing team plays with a real sense of urgency. On top of that, I didn't feel Houston was ever in real danger of losing the game because of the way they played on offense late in the 4th. You'll notice Orlando cut the lead down to 9 around midway in the 4th quarter but Houston then really started to run the clock down on offense and Orlando was also resorting to pressure defense which took time off the clock anyway since they were looking to force turnovers and make it harder for Houston to get the ball up the floor. This strategy clearly worked for Houston with Drexler just isolating and letting the clock run down as the rest of the team spaced the floor allowing him to penetrate and it was the reason Houston had the game in the bag. The lead they had established earlier allowed them to play this way from a strategic standpoint. At the 1:42:20 mark, Guokas talks about how Drexler milking the clock was successful for them.

Hakeem was great in the first half this game (22 pts on 9/17 FG), Orlando chose to play him straight up with Shaq in the first quarter and once he got accustomed to it a bit and knew the double wasn't coming at all, he was able to get to the middle and he drew two fouls on Shaq in a span of 90 seconds which forced them to switch Grant on him and mix up single coverage with some double teaming for the rest of the first half. You can hold Shaq accountable for Hakeem's big first half (even though not all of Hakeem's pts were scored vs him) when you consider Orlando's strategy of guarding him straight up didn't work early on, allowed Houston to establish a big lead and Shaq getting into foul trouble played a part in that. The Magic also stated that they should've double teamed Hakeem more often in this game which you'll see in one of the quotes below. Shaq was mostly getting double teamed right off the catch in this game, did a good job finding the open man but he also had a big "quiet stretch" in the first half as Houston could take away his individual shot creation with quick double teaming and that impacted his ability to get in rhythm. He only had 10 pts on 3/10 shooting at halftime with Houston up 22 but a big time second half with 23 pts on 9/12 shooting though the commentator(s) do mention he wasn't a dominating factor. If you're comparing their box score production for this game, you have to consider Houston's strategy in terms of the way they used Hakeem in the second half, especially the 4th quarter and Hakeem also had to take a couple of late in the clock/bailout shots too (he missed both) with the way those possessions had played out (1:16:50 and 1:47:28). That's the difference between a 14/28 and a 14/30 shooting night.

Next, I want to mention that Orlando (including Shaq) played horrible transition defense in this series. It was a major reason why they lost this series and since Shaq was one of the guys not hustling back on defense, this is something Shaq can be criticized for.

The quote below is Orlando's reasoning for why they lost game 2:

The Magic viewed films of its Game 2 debacle yesterday, and while the failure to double-team Olajuwon in certain situations was scrutinized, everyone was in agreement as to where the problem lies. Transition defense, they believe, is the key.
"As we viewed the tapes, we kept seeing the same thing: no one getting back," Rollins said.
"I don't know. You look at Houston. Sometimes, I don't think any of us are giving them enough credit. They've beaten all the teams with the best records in the playoffs."


http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19950611&slug=2125909" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brian Hill asked about Shaq's transition defense:

When the coach of the Houston Rockets speaks about half-court offense and floor spacing and "running with a purpose," people write it down and nod their heads. When everyone's opinion is suddenly that you could very well be a genius, the hard thing to do is avoid agreeing with it.
"Anybody can have a philosophy and a game plan," Tomjanovich said. "Getting players to believe it, that's the important part."
Like getting your star to run back on defense? Hill was asked how he suggests that maybe Shaquille O'Neal should do more of that. "Very carefully and with great thought," said Hill.
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1995-06-14/sports/9506140014_1_orlando-s-brian-hill-sam-houston-rudy-tomjanovich" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Below is a journalist being critical of Shaq's defense. He counted 8 pts at the minimum where Houston scored with Shaq not getting back and this is just for game 3.

The obvious difference between Hakeem Olajuwon and Shaquille O’Neal is that Olajuwon is art and O’Neal is craft.
Another one is that Olajuwon runs back on defense.
While the first is why Houston is aesthetically superior to Orlando, the second is why the Rockets are leading the Magic by three games to none in the NBA Finals.
“Transition,” said Orlando coach Brian Hill. “Again they beat us in transition.”
For the casually curious watching at home, and there should be less and less now that this thing has all the suspense of an execution, let me explain what transition is. That is when you see everybody running to one side of the television screen. Then they kind of all slow down and throw the ball around. Eventually coming into the picture will be No. 32 of Orlando. Maybe not.
This is because the Magic will inconsiderately run down the floor before O’Neal is ready to join them.
Sometimes O’Neal does not even play with his own teammates, allowing them to go four on five.
I counted at least eight points scored by Houston because O’Neal was still on the other side of halfcourt when he should have been back on defense.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/1995/jun/12/while-shaq-slacks-houston-rockets-toward-title/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I believe this is purely a case of lackadaisical effort on Shaq's part because I vividly remember a couple of plays where he actually beat Hakeem down the floor for a transition bucket but on defense, he didn't nearly exert as much energy although you can certainly argue had he exerted more energy, that could've wore him down on offense. This issue isn't just relegated to Hakeem beating Shaq in transition either but rather the entire team could also take advantage of this. Obviously, not every transition bucket for Houston can be attributed to Shaq not getting back since Shaq is standing in the paint and there were some turnovers/bad shots Houston forced from the perimeter and were able to quickly get in the open court so that's something the perimeter players should be held accountable for. However, there were definitely a number of plays where Houston did take advantage of the fact that Shaq did not get back in the appropriate time.

Just a couple of examples:

5:38 mark in the video below. Chucky Brown was Shaq's man at this point in this game and you'll notice, Brown and Shaq are essentially side by side when Houston gets possession of the ball. However, you'll notice Brown outruns Shaq and is able to get putback after the Houston miss. The rest of the Magic aren't playing good transition defense either but Shaq certainly isn't holding up his end of the bargain.



2:40 mark in the video below. Drexler takes advantage of the fact that Shaq isn't getting and is able to get to lane without any rim protection. This link has Spanish commentary but on the English broadcast, Matt Guokas says, Shaquille not getting back on defense, Drexler recognized it, took it right to the hole, nobody to challenge his shot.



Another point I have to mention, albeit it is minor, is that Shaq's unwillingness to box out hurt Orlando on a few possessions since his man was able sneak in and get a second chance opportunity. I could point to specific examples if you want me to. I can recall about 3-4 instances. Shaq often did not box out and relied more on his physical attributes which was fine since his presence took up so much space in the middle and he was a good rebounder but it could allow for OREB opportunities for his man. This is something both Walton and Guokas mentioned at some point in the series. It didn't hurt them a lot because Shaq was guarding Hakeem for the most part and Hakeem often chose to get back on defense rather than attack the offensive glass since he was often positioned on the perimeter. Hakeem actually did a pretty great job at boxing Shaq out in games 2-4 of the series after having some trouble due to often face-guarding him in game 1. He changed his strategy after game 1 and you'll notice Shaq didn't really have his usual big series on the offensive glass. Shaq only had a 6.8 OREB% in the 1995 finals, the lowest of any playoff series in his Magic or Laker years. This is keeping in mind that 1995 was one of Shaq's best years on the offensive glass and up to the finals, he was averaging a whopping 16.2 OREB%. Also, Shaq got quite a few OREBs when Hakeem went to help/block a shot; against Hakeem alone, Shaq either had 3 or 4 OREBs. This is something that the box score won't necessarily show since Hakeem boxing out Shaq often meant he won't be the one able to get the DREB. Although, in a way, you can see it in Shaq's relatively low OREB numbers. Another thing to note is that Hakeem boxing out Shaq meant the Houston perimeter players could get the DREB and get out in transition and along with Orlando's awful transition defense, this allowed them to be successful in the open court.

4:56 mark in the video below. Bill Walton: And again, Hakeem forced to block out, rather than grab that rebound himself.



Also, did you track how many shots Shaq and Hakeem created in general as opposed to assists? These would include hockey assists, open looks they create that their teammates missed or got fouled on etc. I'd imagine they both had quite a few. In general, I did think they both did a great job reading the defense, it was rare to see them force the issue and they often made quick, split second decisions in finding gaps and openings in the defense and were able to hit shooters or cutters. Shaq's passing was probably the biggest improvement in his game from second to third year. I remember both Walton and Guokas also commending his passing in this series.

It would've also been interesting to record the shots they altered, the deflections they had, the turnovers they forced and how well they played help/team defense in general though I understand this in particular is hard to account for. Both in this series and in general, Hakeem was superior in these aspects of the game. I've already talked about Shaq's subpar transition defense but Hakeem did a pretty good job at getting back on defense and on top of that, Hakeem's help defense was also superior albeit he wasn't able to help out as much as he normally did largely due to the concern of Shaq benefiting from it in the sense of being able to finish plays and get OREB/putback opportunities. Hakeem did well altering shots in the paint with his quick reflexes, length, the quickness of his jump and how well he'd react and anticipate to plays developing. There were instances where he'd deflect passes breaking up a play, save a basket here and there and also his ability to shade/double on defense allowing him to dictate the offensive player's decision making on the court. Here's an example of this at the 1:18 mark in the video below. You'll notice Orlando running a play for Penny in the post vs Cassell which is a mismatch in single coverage so Hakeem comes over to help and Penny immediately backs his dribble out towards the perimeter.



Shaq did change a few shots in the lane as well but he was also late on his rotations on a few occasions and I can remember a couple of instances where Guokas talked about it and keep in mind with Hakeem often pulling Shaq out of the middle, it meant he was unable to protect the rim. It may seem like cherry-picking to isolate one possession but we have to keep in mind basketball is a possession game so every possession matters. fatal9 posted a compilation of 10 turnovers Hakeem was able to force against Shaq but that's just against Shaq; he had a few more deflections and steals in the series and there were a couple of instances where he was able to force a bad pass resulting in a TO due to his presence since he was quick to provide help and managed to cut off a passing lane or forced a tougher passing angle. The second play in the Shaq turnovers compilation fatal9 made is an example of Hakeem stripping Shaq but I'm not sure if he got credit for the steal since he wasn't the one who secured the possession (a lot of times I've seen the person who forced the deflection get credit but at times I haven't) and this is a big play because it resulted in a defense to offense opportunity as Houston was able to get an easy transition bucket due to the steal. Turnovers to transition buckets are crucial due to this since they're possible 4 pt turnarounds. Shaq had 10 more turnovers than Hakeem in this series so it's a safe bet that a greater number of his turnovers led to fastbreak opportunities and thus hurt his team more so than Hakeem's. Another example is the play at 1:30 from fatal9's video as Hakeem strips Shaq, Drexler secures the ball and is able to get in the open court, draw the foul and nails both free throws. That's another possible 4 pt turnaround.

Also, game 2 features an example of Hakeem not getting credit for the appropriate number of steals. The box score credits Hakeem with 1 steal but he had two deflections and both resulted in turnovers forced. I've posted the link above so you can fast forward to the 40:40 mark and you'll see Hakeem strip Anderson on the drive and Cassell is able to secure the ball. Fast forward to the 1:12:40 mark and you'll see a turnover forced by Hakeem as him and Drexler trapped Dennis Scott who was the ball handler on the PnR and Hakeem was able to deflect the pass by getting his arms up and Horry was able to secure the ball.

Also, how many of their defensive plays in general were able to successfully ignite the break? Besides the two examples in the "shaq tos" video where Hakeem's 2 strips on Shaq lead to fastbreak buckets, go to 2:50 in the Hakeem game 1 highlight video I posted above in which I cited some of the plays showcasing Hakeem's ability to evade the double and you'll see Hakeem make a block on Shaw which ignites the fastbreak and Houston is able to get a score. Another at 3:45 in a Hakeem game 4 highlight video which you can see below; Penny tries to hit Shaq with a drop-off, Hakeem steals the ball, feeds Cassell on the outlet and Drexler is able to get a transition bucket + the foul. Igniting the break isn't credited for in the box score but often results in easy offense so this is something that Hakeem should get credit for. I definitely feel he had more plays that ignited the break than Shaq in this series with his defensive prowess with his steals, blocks, outlet passes and even though he's not directly igniting the break by boxing Shaq out, he is allowing his teammates to get the DREB and get out in transition taking advantage of Orlando's poor transition defense.



Another thing that would've been nice to record is how many shots players missed while double teamed and whether the man who was being double teamed off of was able to benefit from it or not. For example, if you go to the 1:05:35 in game 2, Shaq shot the jump hook over Hakeem with Horry leaving Grant to contest Shaq's shot. Grant was able to slip in towards the basket for an offensive rebound. I do not consider this a negative on Shaq's behalf since he was double teamed, was able to get the shot up and Horace Grant benefited from it since his man left to attend to Shaq. How many plays did Hakeem have like this especially as Mario Elie had alluded to in that they wanted Hakeem to play outside due to strategic reasons and if he misses, it could open up opportunities for everyone else to crash the offensive glass with Shaq away from the paint? An offensive rebound by Hakeem's teammates on a missed jumper isn't something I'd necessarily credit to Hakeem but we have to keep in mind this is a way Houston wanted him to play strategically.

In general, I came away thinking Shaq played well in this series (certainly better than Ewing and Robinson in their respective series vs Houston) but I also didn't feel Shaq was nearly as impactful as Hakeem in the 5v5 team setting which is really what basketball is all about. If you want to look at their match up strictly from a 1v1 perspective, sure you could say Shaq was able to do a better job scoring against Hakeem than Hakeem did against Shaq but overall in the 5v5 game, Hakeem definitely seemed more impactful to me. Was it a big difference? No, but Hakeem did enough to prove himself as the superior player but I'll also say the center match up didn't really decide the series. Scott and Anderson didn't play up to expectations, lack of experience was big, Horry was big with his all around play and was a mismatch for Grant and their transition defense (not just Shaq but the entire team) was also poor where Houston was able to thrive largely due to Drexler who was terrific in the open court. Orlando actually pointed to three reasons why they were down 0-3 which you can see below (transition defense, outside shooting and guarding Hakeem).

Orlando denies that lack of experience is the main factor in a finals that looks to be much shorter than the Magic figured. Players point to poor outside shooting, problems in transition and the defensive dilemma posed by Hakeem Olajuwon.

But Orlando's veteran, Horace Grant, sees the look of a champion in Houston's eyes and something else in his team.

"For the younger guys, being down 0-3, they have a tendency to be a little anxious, to play a little tight," he said. "It just comes from being in this situation before."

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19950614&slug=2126301" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
fatal9 wrote: The difference of threes from their teammates wasn't as significant as is being painted.

G1: Hou - 14/32, Orl - 9/30
G2: Hou - 5/14, Orl - 10/26
G3: Hou - 7/19, Orl - 8/31
G4: Hou - 10/26 (minus the three Hakeem made), Orl - 14/31

The bigger difference? 39 TOs for Houston, 64 for the Magic, Magic averaged 6.25 more TOs per game.

Game 1 was the only game where Rockets had an explosive three point shooting game (helped them make the comeback). Magic shot better and made more threes in two games, and Houston shot better in the other two. Rockets beat them every way, when they were shooting better from three and also when they were shooting worse and not relying on the shot at all. After game 1, Magic actually made more threes on a higher %. Hakeem's teammates stepped up and played better no doubt, but threes weren't really the turning point of that series. Regarding the point of Hakeem and passing to three point shooters, he's the most dynamic playmaking center in the post ever imo. He doesn't even have to wait for the double team to come to him, he can contort around, make moves and force the defense to collapse on him, and you can never tell what he's going to do because he passes out of the same type of movements he uses to create his shots. I think overall the "too young" label placed on the Magic was appropriate, they seemed very inexperienced in comparison and weren't executing as well as Houston was.

Here is Hakeem forcing 10 turnovers in one on one situations with Shaq over the series by either stripping him or playing good positional defense, beating him to the spot and drawing an offensive foul or making him shuffle the feet. Note the two plays in the first game that were called travels should have been actually called offensive fouls, but same result in the end; dead ball turnover.

Shaq had the highest TO series of his career (5.3 per game), and Hakeem’s good positional defense clearly had a major part in that. This is significant and in the boxscore it shows in Shaq’s offensive rating, -9 compared to the sum of the previous three series (as well as lower than his career, as well as prime avg). But people are so hung up over FG%. Add the turnovers and Shaq's PPP is nothing special.

And what about the superior help defense? Hakeem single handedly probably created 20+ turnovers in that series, changed more shots, was a more active defensive presence. Hakeem's teammates hit threes at a better rate in the series (9 threes per game at 39.6%, Shaq's hit 10.25 @ 34.7%), but how much is it due to Hakeem's more dynamic, unpredictable playmaking in the post? What about the fact Hakeem can beat double teaming by stepping out on the perimeter and take on a higher volume role if that's the strategy his team wants to use (Hakeem didn't have stretches where he didn't score for like 10+ minutes, unlike Shaq)? What about the fact Hakeem can play off the ball spotting up from midrange jumpers all over the court opening up the paint for his teammates? Hakeem was the better all around presence and this was in a year (1995) when his on court activity had began slipping compared to previous years ('93 and '94). Whatever though. 10 years from now people are going to act like Durant didn’t get outplayed by LeBron in the finals because he scored 30.6 ppg on 55 FG%/65TS% and LeBron only scored 28.6 ppg on 47%/55.7 TS%.

In game 1, Shaq outplayed Hakeem offensively but again, with defense factored in (especially in the second half), it's hard to say. Game 2, Hakeem outplayed Shaq. While I agree you can't just throw away Shaq's second half, the fact that Shaq went something like 15 minutes without scoring while his team was getting its ass kicked (by Hakeem) is hard to overlook. Game 3, very efficient game for Shaq but Hakeem was the better all-around player on the court again to me, at worst it's a wash. Game 4, Hakeem outplayed him heavily. Regarding the point of "quiet" stretches, Shaq’s volume could be limited by double teaming. This is often an issue with post players when you build your offense around them, you can limit their volume significantly (which is why Hakeem is maybe the best 4 around 1 center ever, more dynamic playmaker, more versatile scorer, amazing at making adjustments to different defenses), it was easier to quiet him through double teaming than Hakeem who could step out and beat doubles. Anyways, I've always maintained Shaq and KAJ are the greatest offensive centers (though in the playoffs, Hakeem is closer to them than a lot of people realize) so if you want to say Shaq had the better series offensively, I would find it acceptable (though would ultimately disagree, more like a wash), but "outplaying" someone to me means who made the most impact and who was the superior presence on the court, which was Hakeem.

Look, NOBODY stops Shaq when he gets position on you or in a one on one situation if he gets enough dribbles in. I’m not sure what new piece of information people are finding here, Shaq’s FG% would be higher because of the type of shots he takes and because he's unstoppable against basically any kind of a defender in single coverage. Hakeem took away some of the efficiency by generally playing solid D on post ups and by forcing turnovers, but still, when Shaq gets position, it’s over (keeping Shaq under 1 PPP is a great accomplishment though). I will admit, I'm a little surprised by Hakeem's individual efficiency vs. Shaq based on what is written in OP. Hakeem didn't really have an efficient series overall by his standards, but that seems lower than expected. Shaq played very disciplined individual defense on Hakeem, Shaq's post defense in general is very good because of what wide body he has, I would have to track the games myself to see if those numbers are accurate and account for the help defense on each shot as well as opportunities that were created more so by teammates than Hakeem/Shaq themselves, among other things (as I mentioned, I like to know things in even more detail than what is written in OP). But really, if you can watch and understand the game, all this stuff isn’t even needed.

I agree that the idea that "Hakeem dominated" Shaq isn't an accurate picture of what happened, but he clearly showed him self to be the superior player. Shaq likely says “he embarrassed me” because of the way the series ended. Hakeem outplayed him heavily in game 4, especially in the second half. He was completely outclassed in that game. Sometimes that's what people remember most, how a series ends, whether wrongly or not, but that's a reason why I think that narrative took off.

Regardless, it's a 4 game sample size, I prefer to breakdown a player's game to analyze skills that stay consistent in the long run than rely on stats from a handful of games which is subject to variance. BTW, I really don't understand some posts in this thread saying that "this is the only argument peak Hakeem had over peak Shaq", if that's really what you believe, then I think you need to gain a deeper understanding of the game and of what makes both players so great. If 4 games makes you change your opinion drastically in either direction (ie. Hakeem is better than Shaq!! or Shaq is better than Hakeem!1!!), then I think you need to change your methodology of evaluating players a little bit. Neither player was at his peak in this series, Hakeem closer to his than Shaq, but the point of peak Hakeem > peak Shaq was never built on him allegedly dominating Shaq for 4 games or even him being a superior offensive player to Shaq. Hakeem's greatness lies in his ability to impact the game in so many ways on both ends of the floor. He's the closest thing to a one man team for that reason, because he covers up more flaws for a team than any player...ever. But that's another discussion.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#12 » by penbeast0 » Sun Dec 8, 2024 10:33 pm

Hakeem and Houston were the champions but they weren't particularly good during the regular season. The top teams were San Antonio with David Robinson, Utah with Malone and Stockton, Phoenix with Barkley, Seattle with Payton and Kemp, Orlando with Shaq and Penny, and New York with Ewing. Shaq, Barkley, and Ewing maintained their numbers in the playoffs



The Rockets are down in the next grouping with LA (Cedric Ceballos their only All-Star), Chicago with Pippen leading the team without Jordan, Portland despite losing Drexler, Cleveland with none of the 5 main starters averaging 15ppg, Atlanta with NIque gone and WIllis injured, and .500 Denver.

League leaders were Shaq for scoring, Rodman for rebounding, and Stockton for assists, though Rodman ended up being more trouble than he was help once the playoffs came as his personal issues became a major distraction. David Robinson won MVP and led all the compilation stats as well with Stockton second in WS, Box Score +/-, and VORP (Shaq was second in PER). Robinson still averaged 25/12 in the playoffs but on poor efficiency. Stockton's case is similar having led the league in scoring efficiency but dropping to just over league average in the playoffs with Malone's efficiency dropping similarly (only 5 games and facing Hakeem and Houston).

Player of Year
1. Hakeem -- despite a lackluster regular season by arguably his most talented supporting cast, no one else stands out enough to be better and playoff Hakeem is again a thing.
2. Shaq -- strong RS, good playoffs, still a bit raw.
3. David Robinson -- Easily the best RS, lost his reputation being whipped by Hakeem end to end. This was the year Hakeem finally got recognized as being better than Robinson, then came the injury and now it is pretty much unchallenged.
4. Stockton -- Strong regular season, 1st round loss was to the Rockets (3-2 which is better than anyone else did) and his assists, efficiency, and arguably his defense in the passing lanes were all best in the league.
5. Ewing -- Could be Karl Malone or Charles Barkley, but Ewing's defense is a clear step up from Malone and both way above Barkley.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#13 » by AEnigma » Sun Dec 8, 2024 11:37 pm

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Scottie Pippen
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Dikembe Mutombo


I have never voted for a non-big to win this award. However, Pippen this year and next mounts as strong a case as I think any non-big will ever have. Absurd to have that team as a #2 defence. If the Bulls had been a bit stouter defensively against the Magic, it would probably not even be a debate in my mind, but as is, it is a tight contest with the several all-time centres.

Other considerations are Ewing (Knicks are no longer historic but still lead the league), Dikembe (near identical individual production to last season but with no postseason heroics and a declined team defensive rating), Hakeem (has taken a step back but is still probably the player you can most trust to secure an essential stop), and Robinson (depends on how much we care to penalise the Hakeem torching). Thought about Mourning, but tough to take him over the other centres yet. Everyone plays within 250 minutes of each other, so that will not be a serious concern — especially because Hakeem played the fewest and then went on to win the title, while Dikembe played the most and then played under 90 minutes total in the postseason.

So… still taking Hakeem over Ewing and Robinson. Everything I have previously said about him being the best shotblocker, post defender, perimetre defender, etc. holds true this year as well. His defensive rebounding has certainly slipped… but so has Robinson’s next to Rodman. In the postseason, I really only care about defensive performance against legitimate teams, and on that front I am more impressed by Ewing against the Knicks than I am by Robinson against the Rockets. Additionally, if Robinson is to be positively compared with Ewing for his offensive production against Hakeem relative to Ewing, then he should be similarly be compared negatively in just how much better Hakeem was against him than against Ewing. As we have kind-of gone over, Shaq did a better job against Hakeem than Robinson did.

Dikembe is the best shotblocker of the bunch. Better defensive rebounder than Hakeem and Robinson, although Ewing is top there. Not a particularly notable regular season — again, I think his DPoY was something of delayed reward for the Sonics upset — and the postseason may as well have been a bye for the Spurs. I tend to prefer him over Robinson and Ewing, but it is not a strong inclination, and while there are a few of his years I would comfortably take over 1995, this one involves much too large a postseason gap.

Does Hakeem deserve #1? It may be his worst full-length defensive season since his rookie year, but that still leaves him better than the defensive peaks of most players. Problem is, when I think about the defining defensive player of the year, he does not really come to mind — his entire western conference run was just immaculate centre offence, and while I think some of the commentary on the Finals ignores his excellent team defence (the Magic had their definite worst postseason production against Hakeem and the Rockets), it is not a season I feel compelled to reward. But Pippen? He led the Bulls to their best defensive finish since 1975 and best relative defensive rating since 1974, and he did it with the next three highest minute players being Kukoc, Kerr, and Armstrong. The rest of the roster was defensively solid, and I put Ron Harper on the shortlist for best defensive guards, but I am not sure any other forward produces a -4 defence in his place. So even though I do not think he was the best defender, I ultimately feel he was the league’s most notable defender.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Anfernee Hardaway
2. Reggie Miller
3. Shaquille O’Neal


I have Penny as the league’s best playmaker, and the next two seasons show exactly how well he can lead an offence without Shaq. Reggie has another spectacularly efficient scoring run, but compared to last season he has lost his postseason advantage over the Magic. Finally, Shaq has one of his best years, and it was enough to beat out Barkley or the Jazz duo for this ballot, but I think that Finals showed some of the limits of fully running offence through him (as detailed two posts above).

Player of the Year

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Shaquille O’Neal
3. David Robinson
4. Karl Malone
5. Penny Hardaway


Hakeem, Shaq, and Robinson certainly have the most accomplished seasons. My post two up covers my feeling on Hakeem versus Shaq: the latter was a more efficient scorer and was swept largely for reasons outside his control… but superior scoring efficiency alone is not enough to be said to have won the matchup. I also re-emphasised my stance on the Hakeem/Robinson comparison last thread, and Robinson establishing a larger regular season edge does not mean anything to me apart from how it gave him a clear path to the conference finals and thus a clear path to a top three ballot spot. I think this three year stretch shows how — as uninspiring a bar as it may be — even Malone was an easier centrepiece to rely upon in the postseason. However, Robinson was the one with the 1-seed, Robinson was the one who reached the conference finals, and Robinson was the one who had less team support. Accordingly, this year he is more deserving of a heightened RPoY finish — even if on balance it only ends up by a spot, because Malone did perform better against the Rockets and led a better (albeit less successful) team.

Deciding between Penny, Reggie, Barkley, and Pippen for the final spot. Pippen is the least accomplished so is the first cut (I rewarded him enough on a different ballot anyway). Barkley was thoroughly outplayed by KJ against the Rockets, so he is cut too. While I generally prefer to spread team representation a bit, here I think Penny was an outright better player than Reggie, and he went deeper in the postseason (even if Reggie likely could have made the finals too next to Shaq). Next season he will be even higher because of the spectacular 28-game stretch without Shaq, but generally I think he is pretty much at that level already.

As for Hakeem, he is still the league’s best defensive centre (albeit diminished from the preceding decade of total defensive dominance), and now he is at his absolute offensive peak. Four consecutive road series wins against 59-win teams (never replicated). 3-1 road comeback (one of three ever) against the Suns. It is the most legendary title run in league history even without the iconic MVP humiliation.

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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#14 » by OhayoKD » Mon Dec 9, 2024 4:02 am

Voting Post

1. Hakeem
2. David Robinson
3. Shaq

he simplest argument one can make for Hakeem over O'Neal is probably the following:
LA Bird wrote:The Rockets title run will probably be the main determining factor for the placings of the top players so let's have a closer look at each series:

3-2 Jazz, +4.0 MOV, 120.5 Ortg, 116.0 Drtg
4-3 Suns, +0.4 MOV, 115.2 ORtg, 114.8 DRtg
4-2 Spurs, +1.7 MOV, 109.8 ORtg, 108.0 DRtg
4-0 Magic, +7.0 MOV, 116.6 ORtg, 109.5 DRtg

Hakeem swept Shaq to win championship. Hakeem better

Unfortunately I am a big believer that discourse is advantaged from consistent reasoning. And to this point greater team-success, even when it includes head to head (team-wide) domination, does not grantee higher placement on my ballots. That said, if a player is going to be rated higher despite losing in 4 games by a margin of 7-points in one of their better performances, I'd like strong evidence of a weaker cast. And here the Magic just do too well:

1995 without Shaq
Record: 2-1
Net-Rating: +/- 0

1996 without Shaq
Record: 20-8 (60-win pace!)
Net-Rating: +2.8

1997 without Shaq
Record: 45-37
Net-Rating: -0.7

By comparison

1995 Rockets without Hakeem
Record: 3-7 (25-win pace)
Net-Rating: -4.4
1996 Rockets without Hakeem
Record: 1-8 (10-win pace)
Net Rating: -8.0
1997 Rockets without Hakeem (Barkley joins)
Record: 3-1
Net Rating: +2.4

Rockets team seems to perform worse without him and then goes and beats the breaks out of Shaq's with him. I didn't really care too much about Magic +40-+4ing MJ in on/off in the 91 finals (said I thought mj played better regardless), so +6 isn't moving me here when Shaq's team looks much better properly isolated from the variable being assessed. Could some of this be explained by hot shooting and whatever else? Sure. But this is shaq's best performance of the playoffs and it's his decent team getting beat down by a seemingly not so decent team.

You'd have to really sell me on the basketball to swing my vote here and I really can't get behind reducing the most dynamic defender of the era's perimeter impact on turnovers to "turnovers they forced" when turnovers arguably were the aspect of the game that most swung the series. Open to "he's creating better looks" and perfectly fine with "he drew more defensive attention(I'd like to see the tape broken down there if possible), but the results here are much too dramatic for me to ignore and I think Hakeem being a much better defender is a plausible enough explanation(though if someone was to show there wasn't actually a big difference in rim-protection or help defense i'd probably be more open to shaq edging hakeem here).

Dron seems more interesting to me.

The individual play has been covered to death by the wall of posts Enigma keeps linking so I'll just focus on the result side of things. Spurs were +5.9 and 63-wins in the RS after a great POY worthy rs carry-job from David Robinson. Here's how the team did in the playoffs

First Round -3-0, 15 point M.O.V vs +0.9 Nuggets team -> +16 PSRS, 11-point improvement
Second Round , 4-2, 6 point M.O.V vs -0.9 lakers team -> +5 PSRS, 1 point decrease

Seems to be going well

Third Round (Cue Hakeem)
2-4, -2 point M.O. V vs +2.3 Rockets, +/- 0 point PSRS, 5-point decrease.

I'm not going to overreact and put him below everyone when his team's playoff falling this year is isolated to coming against #1, but with the individual play being a significant differentiator being extremely well argued and Hakeem's help looking pretty questionable too i'm happy taking the best playoff riser of his time #1


4. Malone

2nd least competitive vs the Rockets but plays alright I guess.

5. Pippen

Feuding with management, files a trade request, loses horace grant...and they still win more games than they lose while posting a 53-win net=rating. Pippen is also pretty clearly the best rim-protector, floor-general, best man defender, best help defender, primary ball-handler, and best creator, and best scorer for said >.500 or 50ish win team. Bulls are not the impressive in the playoffs either but POY competition for this year isn't that good and Pippen really comes pretty close to doing everything for a good team.

OPOY
1. Kevin Johnson
2. Karl Malone
3. Hakeem

DPOY
1. Scottie Pippen
2. Patrick Ewing
3. Hakeem Olajuwon

Pippen might be my only non-big dpoy pick ever (maybe Lebron in 2012?)
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#15 » by One_and_Done » Mon Dec 9, 2024 5:30 am

1. Hakeem
2. D Rob
3. Shaq
4. K.Malone
5. Pippen

HM: Penny

I debated D.Rob over Hakeem, despite Hakeem outplaying him head to head in this particular series, but ultimately I can't get there. The playoffs are too important, and while I'm loathe to pass up D.Rob's incredible RS I think I have to. It is worth noting that this one series has shaped far too much of the narrative. Prior to 1993 when Hakeem took a big jump nobody really thought he was better than D.Rob. in fact, before that 95 series most probably thought D.Rob was the better player. I remember seeing a number of head to head stat comparisons that show that simply was not true.

Shaq is a clear 3rd, having well and truly hit his prime. Prime Shaq was simply a more dominant and impactful player than Malone.

Malone is an easy 4th place. At no point in his career was Stockton ever better than him, let alone a top 5 player. If that had been the case we wouldn't have seem the Jazz barely miss a beat when Stockton started to play a reduced role in 98.

Pippen edges out Penny for me, though I may reconsider this later.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#16 » by LA Bird » Mon Dec 9, 2024 10:16 am

Maybe I am alone in this but is it really that crazy to have Malone over Shaq?
- Jazz had a more successful regular season than Magic by wins or SRS.
- Jazz had a closer series with Rockets than Magic by wins or point differential.
- Malone had the weaker supporting cast. Penny > Stockton, Grant = Hornacek, Anderson/Scott >>> anyone else on the Jazz.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#17 » by 70sFan » Mon Dec 9, 2024 10:46 am

One_and_Done wrote:in fact, before that 95 series most probably thought D.Rob was the better player.

That's why Hakeem finished higher in MVP voting both in 1993 and 1994.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#18 » by Djoker » Mon Dec 9, 2024 2:51 pm

VOTING POST

The 1995 WCF were a true legacy-defining series. Nobody could ever look at Hakeem and Robinson to be on the same tier afterwards because of just how thoroughly Hakeem spanked him in that series. It completely settled any kind of debate that could have existed. Not that I think it's wrong because PS matters a lot plus Robinson also had other underperformances in the PS outside of that one. It would be a nice series to track at some point as well and break down the numbers like I did for Hakeem vs. Shaq.

POY

1. Hakeem Olajuwon - 3rd Team All-NBA. Finals MVP. Pretty far from POY after the RS but boy did he make it up in the PS and then some elevating the Rockets and winning the title. The defense fell off compared to the prior two years but the offensive load went up. It isn't as clear of a win as in 1994 but it's still rather clear to me. He averaged 27.8/10.8/3.5 on 56.3 %TS (+2.0 rTS) in the RS then 33.0/10.3/4.5 on 56.0 %TS (+2.0 rTS) in the PS.

2. Shaquille O'Neal - 2nd Team All-NBA. Shaq had a really good RS behind only Robinson and then, like Hakeem, stepped up big in the PS. I'm still not so high on Shaq's defense; though an improvement on 1994, it's not on Hakeem's let alone Robinson's level. Offensively though, I feel confident in saying Shaq is ahead. Shaq's PS numbers are depressed by Round 1 which the Magic won easily so it's better than it looks for him. He averaged 29.3/11.4/2.7 on 58.8 %TS (+4.5 rTS) in the RS then 25.7/11.9/3.3 on 59.5 %TS (+5.9 rTS) in the PS.

3. David Robinson - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. MVP. Fantastic RS leading the overachieving Spurs to the #1 seed. He was the best in the RS but not by a lot and he needed to have a good PS to solidify it. He collapsed instead and got completely overshadowed in the PS by the two men ahead of him. As someone who holds PS performance above RS performance, I think putting Robinson at #3 is consistent with my approach in the past. He should have done better. He averaged 27.6/10.8/2.9 on 60.2 %TS (+5.9 rTS) in the RS then 25.3/12.1/3.1 on 53.6 %TS (+0.3 rTS) in the PS.

4. Karl Malone - 1st Team All-NBA. As several others pointed out, Utah did lost in Round 1 but they were victims of unfortunate seeding and lost in a virtual draw with the champions and Karl played well in the series. Doesn't make sense to demote him more. Averaged 26.7/10.6/3.5 on 59.0 %TS (+4.7 rTS) in the RS then 30.2/13.2/3.8 on 55.0 %TS (+2.3 rTS) in the PS.

5. Reggie Miller - 3rd Team All-NBA. Not a super impressive RS but Reggie really stepped up in the PS scoring huge and leading the Pacers to a Game 7 loss in the ECF. Just a fantastic PS run that flies under the radar. Reggie was a capable passer but he mostly played off-ball and strained defenses more than any players until perhaps as long as two decades later. Averaged 19.6/2.6/3.0 on 62.0 %TS (+7.7 rTS) in the RS then 25.5/3.6/2.1 on 63.2 %TS (+10.5 rTS) in the PS.

HM:

Scottie Pippen - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. Bulls poor until Jordan came back. Also not a great PS.

Clyde Drexler - 3rd Team All-NBA. Great PS as a #2 to Hakeem. Still, push comes to shove, I think Miller is better at this stage.

Patrick Ewing - A step below the three best C's at this point. Not a great PS.

OPOY

1. Shaquille O'Neal - Captained a historic Magic offense in the RS and PS. Just draws so much attention and makes the game easier for everyone on his team on virtually every possession.

2. Karl Malone - The primary offensive hub of the Jazz as Stockton begins to decline. Utah showing signs of breaking out and becoming a historically great offense as well as they would be from 1996-1998. Post-Hornacek trade, they were fantastic.

3. Reggie Miller - Monster shooting warping defense. Indy having a strong offense despite lackluster support demonstrates Miller's impact.

DPOY

1. David Robinson - Despite his shellacking at the hands of Hakeem, he was still a fantastic team defender. Pretty straight-forward choice.

2. Dikembe Mutombo - Won DPOY. Fantastic rim protector as in the year prior but PS less transcendent.

3. Hakeem Olajuwon - Took a step back defensively but still anchored the champion Rockets.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#19 » by ShaqAttac » Mon Dec 9, 2024 3:39 pm

HAKEEM

B2b chips with bad help. Team sucks when he out and wins b2b when he play but people still using pipm to say he wasn't the best. Crazy to me tho some people did this with Russ too. Great D and Great O and was the best when it mattered. he also swept shaq and penny and grant which is pretty impressive.

DROB

Choked but whatever. Almost beat the Rox and big impact in the reg szn.

MALONE
I was gonna go Shaq but tbh Bird right. Malone did way better vs the Rox and idt stockton's all that. 25 points and plays good d and then drops 30 in the pos on okay ts. Shaq got better numbers but Malone impact higher.

SHAQ
Got swept but still made final and scored a bunch vs the champs and beat mj+pippen.

PIPPEN
Don't got his best or 2nd best dudes and stiill was winning games. Great D and good O.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1994-95 UPDATE 

Post#20 » by AEnigma » Mon Dec 9, 2024 4:47 pm

LA Bird wrote:Maybe I am alone in this but is it really that crazy to have Malone over Shaq?
- Jazz had a more successful regular season than Magic by wins or SRS.
- Jazz had a closer series with Rockets than Magic by wins or point differential.
- Malone had the weaker supporting cast. Penny > Stockton, Grant = Hornacek, Anderson/Scott >>> anyone else on the Jazz.

No, I think there is a reasonable angle for Malone as high as second if we care more about how you were eliminated than where you were eliminated and also recognise that Malone consistently had a head-to-head advantage against both Shaq and Robinson. Not how I have usually formulated my ballots, but definitely not crazy.

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