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HEZI wrote:robillionaire wrote:Can someone tell me why Mikal takes wild fadeaway mid and long range shots that should probably only be attempted by prime Kobe Bryant when he’s visibly struggling to make even open shots. Does this team even watch film?
He heard Thibs liked Alec Burks so he is modeling his game after him
R-DAWG wrote:HEZI wrote:spree2kawhi wrote:All five players are good enough ball handlers. I don’t think any team features that many in their lineups tbh.
We have one guy in the starting lineup who can bring the ball up in a full court press. Most teams have guys at the 2 and even 3 or 4 who can function as lead guards in an offense and play make. We don’t
Look at the difference in the Celtics with Jaylen at the 3 with White/Holiday in the backcourt.
Bridges is a SF playing out of position as a shooting guard.
robillionaire wrote:Report says Mitch still can’t even run and we are supposed to think he will be in any kind of condition to play basketball next month
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:HEZI wrote:NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
The Celtics are playing to get to the playoffs healthy, they have nothing to prove this regular season. We know they can turn it up against teams when they want, because they've done it, they're going to coast to the playoffs, and they are 10th defensively and 3rd in net rating. Their "meh" is still a top 10 defensive team.
No, KAT rates out better on switches than he does in rim protection, so do that. It makes no sense at all to lean into the worst aspect of a player's profile, which is exactly what Tom does. You can call it homer, the stats say Mikal isn't as bad as you're trying to make him seem and it's amazing that his worst defensive season would come with Tom, not his fault though. You're putting down players to prop up Tom for some reason, which makes no sense to me because he's effectively in charge of what they do on defense.We had IHart, OG and Hart on the team last year, we were 13th in DRTG from the point Randle got hurt with the same exact defensive problems even though Ihart graded out as an elite rim protector. We were giving up threes, sinking down to protect the paint and couldn't stop teams that took a high volume of threes. Our defensive rating in the playoffs was 120.6 which was 2nd to last. How are we getting better perimeter defenders, with an elite rim protector and our defense is getting worse? So Reggie Bullock and Rj are better defenders than Hart and OG? Because that's when we had our best defensive team under Tom, back when teams took under 30 threes a game. Or is the league changing and the scheme hasn't changed to defend against a three point happy league. The playoffs saw an elite rim protector paired with an elite perimeter defender, and our defense sucked, that is the coach.
They have a 111 rating and we have a 114 rating. Yes it’s very meh. Most teams in that top 10 aren’t serious threats and when you look at last season, most of the top 10 rated defenses got bounced out in the 1st or 2nd round and some didn’t even make it to the playoffs. Mavs with a defensive rating of 114 made it to the finals. That’s the same defensive rating the Knicks currently have.
KAT is terrible on switches and to ask him to defend the ball handler up high on a switch play after play game after game is just crazy talk. He’s too vital offensively to put that responsibility on him defensively as a big. That’s certainly not a recipe for success.
Haven’t paid much attention to Bridges when he was in Brooklyn but apparently his defense fell off long before he got here. That’s not on Thibs. Not sure how you have watched him play defense this year and think he’s been good. He has been awful.
There is no IHart to anchor the defense and tell me why aren’t teams who apparently defend the 3 better than we do not having more playoff success than we are? Besides one and that’s the team that won’t the chip with multiple elite defenders on the roster. If what you are complaining about hold true for the Knicks, why is it not providing better results for the rest of the league? A bunch of 1st and 2nd round exits and no playoffs for the majority of them all. Because good offense beats good defense almost every time. Knicks haven’t been all that good offensively over the past few years.
The gap between a 111 DRTG and 114 is 8 spots, that is a big gap when differences are measured in single points, this is like saying a second in an F1 race isn't that big a deal when it's an eternity in that sport. And we all know the Celtics are coasting, so I'm not sure what the point is using them. The Thunder are the top defensive team in the NBA, they play at a faster pace than us and teams take less threes against them, they don't just concede three pointers to protect the paint, they prioritize stopping you from getting good looks from three and then making sure you don't get good looks in the paint. We prioritize protecting the paint over everything and the proof is in the pudding, we have been no higher than 10th defensively the last 4 seasons - 11, 19, 10, 18. If the roster keeps changing and the same problem persists, it's the coach.
KAT grades out as average to slightly above average on switches, saying he is terrible at it doesn't even make sense. You're tearing down every aspect of his defense to defend Tom, KAT literally played power forward and had to chase around wings last season, he even guarded KD in the playoffs, 78 possessions and KD was 7-17. This season when he's been caught on switches he's defended them well, he's better at guarding on switches than he is at defending the rim. You're basically throwing your hands up and saying there's nothing Thibs can do because he's tried nothing else, and nothing else works. 2 years ago with a different roster when had the 19th best defense with Mitch and IHart, because we kept giving up an insane amount of three point looks. Since the 3 point explosion Tom's defenses have not been great, period.
So Reggie Bullock and RJ are better defenders than OG and Hart? I see you didn't answer that, because they were on a team that was ranked 3rd defensively, the best defense Tom has ever had in NY was with those two wing defenders. I said last season we had IHart, OG and Hart on the team, our defense was still not great and by your own defintion it was "meh", and it was abysmal in the playoffs where we had a 120 DRTG. How did we have such a crappy defense with an elite rim protector and elite perimeter defender, could it have been the scheme? Why didn't you address this? I'm not even sure what you're arguing now, because the Celtics were 4th in the league last year at defending and limiting threes, believe it or not the year before that when the Nuggets won the title they were 3rd in the league in opponent 3 pointers made and 9th in opponents attempts and 3rd in opp 3pt percentage, they stopped you from taking them and making them
They got perimeter defense and shot blocking. Pretty sure Thunder have superior defenders on the perimeter than we do too. , 103, 109. Pretty easy to see they lost because the offense struggled and it wasn’t because of the defense.robillionaire wrote:Report says Mitch still can’t even run and we are supposed to think he will be in any kind of condition to play basketball next month
HEZI wrote:NoDopeOnSundays wrote:HEZI wrote:
They have a 111 rating and we have a 114 rating. Yes it’s very meh. Most teams in that top 10 aren’t serious threats and when you look at last season, most of the top 10 rated defenses got bounced out in the 1st or 2nd round and some didn’t even make it to the playoffs. Mavs with a defensive rating of 114 made it to the finals. That’s the same defensive rating the Knicks currently have.
KAT is terrible on switches and to ask him to defend the ball handler up high on a switch play after play game after game is just crazy talk. He’s too vital offensively to put that responsibility on him defensively as a big. That’s certainly not a recipe for success.
Haven’t paid much attention to Bridges when he was in Brooklyn but apparently his defense fell off long before he got here. That’s not on Thibs. Not sure how you have watched him play defense this year and think he’s been good. He has been awful.
There is no IHart to anchor the defense and tell me why aren’t teams who apparently defend the 3 better than we do not having more playoff success than we are? Besides one and that’s the team that won’t the chip with multiple elite defenders on the roster. If what you are complaining about hold true for the Knicks, why is it not providing better results for the rest of the league? A bunch of 1st and 2nd round exits and no playoffs for the majority of them all. Because good offense beats good defense almost every time. Knicks haven’t been all that good offensively over the past few years.
The gap between a 111 DRTG and 114 is 8 spots, that is a big gap when differences are measured in single points, this is like saying a second in an F1 race isn't that big a deal when it's an eternity in that sport. And we all know the Celtics are coasting, so I'm not sure what the point is using them. The Thunder are the top defensive team in the NBA, they play at a faster pace than us and teams take less threes against them, they don't just concede three pointers to protect the paint, they prioritize stopping you from getting good looks from three and then making sure you don't get good looks in the paint. We prioritize protecting the paint over everything and the proof is in the pudding, we have been no higher than 10th defensively the last 4 seasons - 11, 19, 10, 18. If the roster keeps changing and the same problem persists, it's the coach.
KAT grades out as average to slightly above average on switches, saying he is terrible at it doesn't even make sense. You're tearing down every aspect of his defense to defend Tom, KAT literally played power forward and had to chase around wings last season, he even guarded KD in the playoffs, 78 possessions and KD was 7-17. This season when he's been caught on switches he's defended them well, he's better at guarding on switches than he is at defending the rim. You're basically throwing your hands up and saying there's nothing Thibs can do because he's tried nothing else, and nothing else works. 2 years ago with a different roster when had the 19th best defense with Mitch and IHart, because we kept giving up an insane amount of three point looks. Since the 3 point explosion Tom's defenses have not been great, period.
So Reggie Bullock and RJ are better defenders than OG and Hart? I see you didn't answer that, because they were on a team that was ranked 3rd defensively, the best defense Tom has ever had in NY was with those two wing defenders. I said last season we had IHart, OG and Hart on the team, our defense was still not great and by your own defintion it was "meh", and it was abysmal in the playoffs where we had a 120 DRTG. How did we have such a crappy defense with an elite rim protector and elite perimeter defender, could it have been the scheme? Why didn't you address this? I'm not even sure what you're arguing now, because the Celtics were 4th in the league last year at defending and limiting threes, believe it or not the year before that when the Nuggets won the title they were 3rd in the league in opponent 3 pointers made and 9th in opponents attempts and 3rd in opp 3pt percentage, they stopped you from taking them and making them
You keep ignoring how terrible Brunson is defensively. You are trying to brush that under the rug but I’ll remind you each and every time, he is awful and he can’t guard his matchup or the switch. So comparing us to teams that switch who clearly have better defensive backcourt that can successfully throw multiple schemes it just lacks any type of logic. Celtics can switch with an elite backcourt so therefore we can too with Jalen freakin Brunson and KAT
Also wasn’t the top rated defense last year a drop coverage team?
Philly is usually a top rated defense too and they suck in the playoffs. They even have a top rated defense this year, have you seen their record? Your argument is inconsistent because your formula is proven to be inconsistent yet you keep trying to convince me it’s a solution when it clearly isn’t based on multiple evidence league wide year after year.
As far as OG, he’s in a group of his own. You can lump Bullock from a few years ago with RJ, Hart and Mikal. I’m not seeing much if any difference there. I remember we had RJ guarding the ball handler and full court pressing at one point because nobody else could.
Last years Knicks team had a top 9 defense so by your standard they were good. See how easy your argument is flipped?
Just checked the scores from that Pacers series and I didn’t even have to watch it to tell you where the issue was. It wasn’t the defense. In the Knicks wins they scored 121,130,121. In their losses they scored 106, 89
ctorres wrote:robillionaire wrote:Report says Mitch still can’t even run and we are supposed to think he will be in any kind of condition to play basketball next month
Plenty of cardio he could still do without running.
Buttah304 wrote:Thibs has proven time and time again that he isn’t willing to adjust his belief of rim protection no matter the opponent or style of play he’s up against. And I really do like him as a coach but this is a MAJOR flaw.
The Knicks giving up the volume of 3s we do AND opponents bullseye accuracy shouldn’t surprise anyone.
Look no further than our recent playoff run. iHart was getting utterly exposed and had the single worst defensive rating in the playoffs vs Philly at 129.9. Against Indiana his highly marketed skill (regular season defensive FG% less than 6 feet of 53%) ballooned to 67% in that series. Thibs continued to try to double down on protecting that area and it resulted in the below:
Out of all 16 playoff teams we ranked 16/16 in 3PT DFG% at 40.0%. We were the only team to hit that benchmark last playoffs.
His obsession with cutting off the paint/restricted area always comes at the same cost. Teams raining 3s like Oprah handing them out.
They hit 43 threes between them and shot 43-95 on them. spree2kawhi wrote:Moose wrote:Some big overreactions here. But I will agree that Bridges' overall play is concerning.
I was hoping the offense would run through him more, especially for this game with no Towns.
I thought he would be our prime Kris Middleton.
Maybe that’s the problem. Prime Middleton was a top 15 player in the league. We traded them the corpse of Bojan Bogdanovic…
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:HEZI wrote:NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
The gap between a 111 DRTG and 114 is 8 spots, that is a big gap when differences are measured in single points, this is like saying a second in an F1 race isn't that big a deal when it's an eternity in that sport. And we all know the Celtics are coasting, so I'm not sure what the point is using them. The Thunder are the top defensive team in the NBA, they play at a faster pace than us and teams take less threes against them, they don't just concede three pointers to protect the paint, they prioritize stopping you from getting good looks from three and then making sure you don't get good looks in the paint. We prioritize protecting the paint over everything and the proof is in the pudding, we have been no higher than 10th defensively the last 4 seasons - 11, 19, 10, 18. If the roster keeps changing and the same problem persists, it's the coach.
KAT grades out as average to slightly above average on switches, saying he is terrible at it doesn't even make sense. You're tearing down every aspect of his defense to defend Tom, KAT literally played power forward and had to chase around wings last season, he even guarded KD in the playoffs, 78 possessions and KD was 7-17. This season when he's been caught on switches he's defended them well, he's better at guarding on switches than he is at defending the rim. You're basically throwing your hands up and saying there's nothing Thibs can do because he's tried nothing else, and nothing else works. 2 years ago with a different roster when had the 19th best defense with Mitch and IHart, because we kept giving up an insane amount of three point looks. Since the 3 point explosion Tom's defenses have not been great, period.
So Reggie Bullock and RJ are better defenders than OG and Hart? I see you didn't answer that, because they were on a team that was ranked 3rd defensively, the best defense Tom has ever had in NY was with those two wing defenders. I said last season we had IHart, OG and Hart on the team, our defense was still not great and by your own defintion it was "meh", and it was abysmal in the playoffs where we had a 120 DRTG. How did we have such a crappy defense with an elite rim protector and elite perimeter defender, could it have been the scheme? Why didn't you address this? I'm not even sure what you're arguing now, because the Celtics were 4th in the league last year at defending and limiting threes, believe it or not the year before that when the Nuggets won the title they were 3rd in the league in opponent 3 pointers made and 9th in opponents attempts and 3rd in opp 3pt percentage, they stopped you from taking them and making them
You keep ignoring how terrible Brunson is defensively. You are trying to brush that under the rug but I’ll remind you each and every time, he is awful and he can’t guard his matchup or the switch. So comparing us to teams that switch who clearly have better defensive backcourt that can successfully throw multiple schemes it just lacks any type of logic. Celtics can switch with an elite backcourt so therefore we can too with Jalen freakin Brunson and KAT
Also wasn’t the top rated defense last year a drop coverage team?
Philly is usually a top rated defense too and they suck in the playoffs. They even have a top rated defense this year, have you seen their record? Your argument is inconsistent because your formula is proven to be inconsistent yet you keep trying to convince me it’s a solution when it clearly isn’t based on multiple evidence league wide year after year.
As far as OG, he’s in a group of his own. You can lump Bullock from a few years ago with RJ, Hart and Mikal. I’m not seeing much if any difference there. I remember we had RJ guarding the ball handler and full court pressing at one point because nobody else could.
Last years Knicks team had a top 9 defense so by your standard they were good. See how easy your argument is flipped?
Just checked the scores from that Pacers series and I didn’t even have to watch it to tell you where the issue was. It wasn’t the defense. In the Knicks wins they scored 121,130,121. In their losses they scored 106, 89
We've tried nothing else, and nothing else works.
Who is brushing off Brunson's defense? He's not great, so instead of switching and living with the outcome, let's have all 5 players sink to the paint on every drive and every screen, then lets have a 6'2" guy try and late contest on 6'6+" guys shooting right over the top. How about coaching to your strengths, and not just using blanket schemes. The Celtics will put Jrue on a center if they need to and use their C on the worst shooter in the lineup, matter of fact it happened to them last night where the Grizz put their C on Jrue and he ended up taking 17 threes. We have never done that, you never see interesting matchups from us like that, despite the fact we could do it with OG.
The Sixers are 13th defensively this year, not sure where you're seeing them as top, the Thunder are the best defense in the league and are on a historic pace. You know when their centers were out they switched everything and played 6'6" Jalen Williams at the 5, they didn't just play some bum center like Sims there because your center should always be a center. The Nuggets limited threes the year they won the title, you are talking about blanket defense when I'm saying we give up too many open three point looks by prioritizing paint defense. The 3 point explosion has seen a slippage in Tom's defense, that is a irrefutable fact that is backed up by numbers, what he prioritizes stopping leads to teams taking volume threes which is basically what they want to do now.
The Pacers had a 124.4 ORTG in that series, I see where the confusion is, you're using ppg as the basis of your argument. For reference, the Wiz have a 120.1 DRTG this year, so we were 4.4 worse than them in that series, our defense was worse in that series than a Kuzma / Sarr perimeter/interior combo. We allowed them to shoot 42% from three, and made 12 per game despite the fact we played at a 92.2 pace, which is basically 2004 speed basketball. But, yes, we lost because we couldn't score and not because their offense was clicking at a historic level against us, for further reference the highest ORTG a team has had in NBA history for a season was at the Celtics last year, at 123.2.
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Buttah304 wrote:Thibs has proven time and time again that he isn’t willing to adjust his belief of rim protection no matter the opponent or style of play he’s up against. And I really do like him as a coach but this is a MAJOR flaw.
The Knicks giving up the volume of 3s we do AND opponents bullseye accuracy shouldn’t surprise anyone.
Look no further than our recent playoff run. iHart was getting utterly exposed and had the single worst defensive rating in the playoffs vs Philly at 129.9. Against Indiana his highly marketed skill (regular season defensive FG% less than 6 feet of 53%) ballooned to 67% in that series. Thibs continued to try to double down on protecting that area and it resulted in the below:
Out of all 16 playoff teams we ranked 16/16 in 3PT DFG% at 40.0%. We were the only team to hit that benchmark last playoffs.
His obsession with cutting off the paint/restricted area always comes at the same cost. Teams raining 3s like Oprah handing them out.
We were playing in a drop against a Myles Turner & Haliburton PnR
IHart should have been on Siakam, with Hart and OG/Precious on Turner and Haliburton, that way we switch it and live with the post ups that could come from Turner going at Hart or OG (Before he got hurt). But instead, we had Ihart on Turner, because a center always needs to guard a center and he was in a drop or helping off, they exploited that so easily.
The Celtics are going to obliterate his defense.
robillionaire wrote:ctorres wrote:robillionaire wrote:Report says Mitch still can’t even run and we are supposed to think he will be in any kind of condition to play basketball next month
Plenty of cardio he could still do without running.
True he probably expends a lot of energy trying to climb to his obnoxious vehicle
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Gravy wrote:KnicksGadfly wrote:
Yes, we can. A loss against Detroit is not the worst thing in the world. What’s not a good solution is putting our superstar point guard at risk long-term because then we’re really going to see how bad our depth is.
In that scenario, Thibs is getting fired and deservedly so. He has a bad process right now and he’s lucky the results aren’t so bad right now. He needs to learn from what he did to Derrick Rose…twice.
The only option we have to save the starters minutes is to guarantee to lose games by playing the bench. I dont see anybody happy with the loss because Hukporti got 15 minutes. Will Thibs job be safe because we made the play in and get eliminated in the first round but everyone is rested?
At some point in time, you either have to blame the front office or the coach for the bench.
Bench scoring / minutes ranking
2020-2021 - 12th (19th)
2021-2022 - 23rd (23rd)
2022-2023 - 26th (27th)
2023-2024 - 27th (29th)
2024-2025 - 30th (30th)
Want to see something crazy though? The bench in those 5 seasons, not one of them has been negative at the end of the season, in total points they are all +, sometimes even being in the top 3 of the league. Maybe they suck, we'll never know because they don't play, but that is a funny little point, every single one of those benches was net positive. Pacome is inexplicably plus on the season, but he got mothballed and sent off to Westchester.
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Buttah304 wrote:Thibs has proven time and time again that he isn’t willing to adjust his belief of rim protection no matter the opponent or style of play he’s up against. And I really do like him as a coach but this is a MAJOR flaw.
The Knicks giving up the volume of 3s we do AND opponents bullseye accuracy shouldn’t surprise anyone.
Look no further than our recent playoff run. iHart was getting utterly exposed and had the single worst defensive rating in the playoffs vs Philly at 129.9. Against Indiana his highly marketed skill (regular season defensive FG% less than 6 feet of 53%) ballooned to 67% in that series. Thibs continued to try to double down on protecting that area and it resulted in the below:
Out of all 16 playoff teams we ranked 16/16 in 3PT DFG% at 40.0%. We were the only team to hit that benchmark last playoffs.
His obsession with cutting off the paint/restricted area always comes at the same cost. Teams raining 3s like Oprah handing them out.
We were playing in a drop against a Myles Turner & Haliburton PnR
IHart should have been on Siakam, with Hart and OG/Precious on Turner and Haliburton, that way we switch it and live with the post ups that could come from Turner going at Hart or OG (Before he got hurt). But instead, we had Ihart on Turner, because a center always needs to guard a center and he was in a drop or helping off, they exploited that so easily.
The Celtics are going to obliterate his defense.
KnixinSix wrote:Buttah304 wrote:Knicks had: More points in the paint, more steals, more blocks, more points in transition, more second chance points and less turnovers
It’s just become so glaringly obvious that our struggle defending the 3PT shot is a schematic issue. This isn’t something that you can attribute to one player. I also don’t believe it’s as simple as “just close out hard” - if you watch closely you’ll see a handful of occasions where our players backs are quite literally turned to the 3PT shooters. It’s baffling to me.
Historically, everyone knows that Thibs has been obsessed with closing off the paint valve. If you don’t believe me, watch his somewhat stoic reaction on the sideline to giving up a 3 vs when we concede a layup/back door cut. He visibly blows a gasket on the sideline to the point where it looks like he needs a medical timeout.
As far as Precious & Mitch coming back, sure that’s going to help our interior defense. Statistically speaking, and narratives aside (even though they are fun), that’s not where we are struggling. We are very middle of the pack with respect to points in the paint given up and DFG% in that very same area.
Having said that, we are 29th in the NBA in defensive 3PT % and 29th in 3PT attempts conceded per game.
We make it very easy for the opposing coaching staff. We’re going give up a ton of 3s, and statistically speaking guys are gonna hit them at a well above average clip.
IMO, Cade dropped 29 but I would have lived with him going for 42 so long as we were utterly hellbent on defending 25+ feet out.
Reality: My gut tells me that we are going to continue to put 2 on the ball and overreact to every single driver. We are way too reactive of a defense when our principles should be based on being proactive with more of a switching philosophy.
When we had a DPOY type underneath the basket in Mitch or IHart.....the perimeter defenders sagged less in the paint and were up on the 3 ball.
If we keep Thibs we need the defensive stud 7 footer under the basket....Im telling you.
robillionaire wrote:HEZI wrote:robillionaire wrote:Can someone tell me why Mikal takes wild fadeaway mid and long range shots that should probably only be attempted by prime Kobe Bryant when he’s visibly struggling to make even open shots. Does this team even watch film?
He heard Thibs liked Alec Burks so he is modeling his game after him
I just looked at the advanced stats and 2021 and 2022 Alec burks was a better player than 2024 bridges and it’s ugly
