Can we safely say Jokic is the best offensive player ever?

[AleksandarN]

Everyones stats are inflated in todays NBA. Based on stats alone you could argue everyone in today's top 10 is offensively better than anyone who played the game before

statistically you could argue Lebron last year was better than lebron in his prime offensively. but do you really believe that?

Jokic is an all time great but he would not average these numbers if you inserted him into 80's nba. He'd still be great though, he just wouldn't be getting these numbers.

For these reasons I think you can make the case for Jokic, but it's not going to be "Safe" because it ignores the difference between NBA eras and how things have changed.

In the 80s were just a high scoring era as today. It was just as easy to score in the 80s as it is today

[Ssj16]

Never seen these highlights before.

This is glorious!!!

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I could watch Joker highlights all day. Dude is like Burger King with his arsenal. However you want it, you can have it your way.

[Edrees]

Everyones stats are inflated in todays NBA. Based on stats alone you could argue everyone in today's top 10 is offensively better than anyone who played the game before

statistically you could argue Lebron last year was better than lebron in his prime offensively. but do you really believe that?

Jokic is an all time great but he would not average these numbers if you inserted him into 80's nba. He'd still be great though, he just wouldn't be getting these numbers.

For these reasons I think you can make the case for Jokic, but it's not going to be "Safe" because it ignores the difference between NBA eras and how things have changed.

In the 80s were just a high scoring era as today. It was just as easy to score in the 80s as it is today

After looking at some numbers this seems mostly true

[hardenASG13]

Everyones stats are inflated in todays NBA. Based on stats alone you could argue everyone in today's top 10 is offensively better than anyone who played the game before

statistically you could argue Lebron last year was better than lebron in his prime offensively. but do you really believe that?

Jokic is an all time great but he would not average these numbers if you inserted him into 80's nba. He'd still be great though, he just wouldn't be getting these numbers.

For these reasons I think you can make the case for Jokic, but it's not going to be "Safe" because it ignores the difference between NBA eras and how things have changed.

In the 80s were just a high scoring era as today. It was just as easy to score in the 80s as it is today

Are people trying to argue Jokic as the best offensive player ever because of his scoring, though? I hope not. He's 2nd in the league in ppg this season. That would be the first time ever he's finished top 5 in ppg in a single season (which to me makes it crazy to say he's the best offensive player ever).

He's in the discussion for his assists, I assume. You can definitely argue that assists are easier to get these days, with the spacing of the floor, and teams playing guys who are much more capable (and willing to shoot) on catch and shoot opportunities. For Jokic in particular, they use him so much in DHO action or have guys cutting off him for 1 pass shots. He leads the league passes per game and is 2nd in pptential assists per game. Edres point regarding Lebrons stats is a valid way to look at stats these days. He averaged 25/7/8 last year, and is/was far from his peak playing days.

[Bergmaniac]

In the 80s were just a high scoring era as today. It was just as easy to score in the 80s as it is today

I'd say it was easier, teams were averaging 106-107 ORTG while barely taking any 3s. And if you watch the games, the transition defence in particular was way worse than today even in the playoffs.

[Jaqua92]

Everyones stats are inflated in todays NBA. Based on stats alone you could argue everyone in today's top 10 is offensively better than anyone who played the game before

statistically you could argue Lebron last year was better than lebron in his prime offensively. but do you really believe that?

Jokic is an all time great but he would not average these numbers if you inserted him into 80's nba. He'd still be great though, he just wouldn't be getting these numbers.

For these reasons I think you can make the case for Jokic, but it's not going to be "Safe" because it ignores the difference between NBA eras and how things have changed.

Advanced stats last year show LeBron nowhere near his prime lol

[dhsilv2]

Everyones stats are inflated in todays NBA. Based on stats alone you could argue everyone in today's top 10 is offensively better than anyone who played the game before

statistically you could argue Lebron last year was better than lebron in his prime offensively. but do you really believe that?

Jokic is an all time great but he would not average these numbers if you inserted him into 80's nba. He'd still be great though, he just wouldn't be getting these numbers.

For these reasons I think you can make the case for Jokic, but it's not going to be "Safe" because it ignores the difference between NBA eras and how things have changed.

In the 80s were just a high scoring era as today. It was just as easy to score in the 80s as it is today

Are people trying to argue Jokic as the best offensive player ever because of his scoring, though? I hope not. He's 2nd in the league in ppg this season. That would be the first time ever he's finished top 5 in ppg in a single season (which to me makes it crazy to say he's the best offensive player ever).

He's in the discussion for his assists, I assume. You can definitely argue that assists are easier to get these days, with the spacing of the floor, and teams playing guys who are much more capable (and willing to shoot) on catch and shoot opportunities. For Jokic in particular, they use him so much in DHO action or have guys cutting off him for 1 pass shots. He leads the league passes per game and is 2nd in pptential assists per game. Edres point regarding Lebrons stats is a valid way to look at stats these days. He averaged 25/7/8 last year, and is/was far from his peak playing days.

The point with the 80's is that assists and points aren't meaningfully higher or lower today.

I just grabbed 1985 cause you know middle of the decade.

Points per game 110.8
Assists per game 26.3

Today

113.1
26.1

So we have 2.3 more points per game and 0.2 less assists per game.

[hardenASG13]

In the 80s were just a high scoring era as today. It was just as easy to score in the 80s as it is today

Are people trying to argue Jokic as the best offensive player ever because of his scoring, though? I hope not. He's 2nd in the league in ppg this season. That would be the first time ever he's finished top 5 in ppg in a single season (which to me makes it crazy to say he's the best offensive player ever).

He's in the discussion for his assists, I assume. You can definitely argue that assists are easier to get these days, with the spacing of the floor, and teams playing guys who are much more capable (and willing to shoot) on catch and shoot opportunities. For Jokic in particular, they use him so much in DHO action or have guys cutting off him for 1 pass shots. He leads the league passes per game and is 2nd in pptential assists per game. Edres point regarding Lebrons stats is a valid way to look at stats these days. He averaged 25/7/8 last year, and is/was far from his peak playing days.

The point with the 80's is that assists and points aren't meaningfully higher or lower today.

I just grabbed 1985 cause you know middle of the decade.

Points per game 110.8
Assists per game 26.3

Today

113.1
26.1

So we have 2.3 more points per game and 0.2 less assists per game.

I mean, yeah, points per game and assists per game are pretty correlated for teams, as when someone scores, the person who passed it gets an assist.

I'm just talking in general, for an individual, the other players on the court now are more versatile/capable scorers and shooters than in the 80s for example. Actions are much more direct leading to shots, and lots of 3pa. Especially with how Denver uses Jokic in DHO action or with guys cutting when he has the ball. He leads the league in passes per game and is second in potential assists per game. So he gets a lot of assists. For many a player you'd hear they are stat padding in that regard. Not Nikola though. He's the best offensive player ever, despite never finishing in the top 5 in ppg.

[dhsilv2]

Are people trying to argue Jokic as the best offensive player ever because of his scoring, though? I hope not. He's 2nd in the league in ppg this season. That would be the first time ever he's finished top 5 in ppg in a single season (which to me makes it crazy to say he's the best offensive player ever).

He's in the discussion for his assists, I assume. You can definitely argue that assists are easier to get these days, with the spacing of the floor, and teams playing guys who are much more capable (and willing to shoot) on catch and shoot opportunities. For Jokic in particular, they use him so much in DHO action or have guys cutting off him for 1 pass shots. He leads the league passes per game and is 2nd in pptential assists per game. Edres point regarding Lebrons stats is a valid way to look at stats these days. He averaged 25/7/8 last year, and is/was far from his peak playing days.

The point with the 80's is that assists and points aren't meaningfully higher or lower today.

I just grabbed 1985 cause you know middle of the decade.

Points per game 110.8
Assists per game 26.3

Today

113.1
26.1

So we have 2.3 more points per game and 0.2 less assists per game.

I mean, yeah, points per game and assists per game are pretty correlated for teams, as when someone scores, the person who passed it gets an assist.

I'm just talking in general, for an individual, the other players on the court now are more versatile/capable scorers and shooters than in the 80s for example. Actions are much more direct leading to shots, and lots of 3pa. Especially with how Denver uses Jokic in DHO action or with guys cutting when he has the ball. He leads the league in passes per game and is second in potential assists per game. So he gets a lot of assists. For many a player you'd hear they are stat padding in that regard. Not Nikola though. He's the best offensive player ever, despite never finishing in the top 5 in ppg.

If it's not Jokic, Magic is likely the next guy up with MJ right there. And did Magic even make the top 10 in ppg?

But even your point below doesn't hold up to any scrutiny.

Top 3 in assists per game this year.

Trae 12.3
Jokic 10.2
Cunningham 9.4

1985

Thomas 13.9
Magic 12.6
Moore 10.0

[Jamaaliver]

I could watch Joker highlights all day. Dude is like Burger King with his arsenal. However you want it, you can have it your way.

MORE!!!!

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[MrPainfulTruth]

Everyones stats are inflated in todays NBA. Based on stats alone you could argue everyone in today's top 10 is offensively better than anyone who played the game before

statistically you could argue Lebron last year was better than lebron in his prime offensively. but do you really believe that?

Jokic is an all time great but he would not average these numbers if you inserted him into 80's nba. He'd still be great though, he just wouldn't be getting these numbers.

For these reasons I think you can make the case for Jokic, but it's not going to be "Safe" because it ignores the difference between NBA eras and how things have changed.

In the 80s were just a high scoring era as today. It was just as easy to score in the 80s as it is today

Are people trying to argue Jokic as the best offensive player ever because of his scoring, though? I hope not. He's 2nd in the league in ppg this season. That would be the first time ever he's finished top 5 in ppg in a single season (which to me makes it crazy to say he's the best offensive player ever).

He's in the discussion for his assists, I assume. You can definitely argue that assists are easier to get these days, with the spacing of the floor, and teams playing guys who are much more capable (and willing to shoot) on catch and shoot opportunities. For Jokic in particular, they use him so much in DHO action or have guys cutting off him for 1 pass shots. He leads the league passes per game and is 2nd in pptential assists per game. Edres point regarding Lebrons stats is a valid way to look at stats these days. He averaged 25/7/8 last year, and is/was far from his peak playing days.

Its a bit too simplicistic to automatically assume you can just look up ppg to determine the best offensive player dont you think?

[AleksandarN]

In the 80s were just a high scoring era as today. It was just as easy to score in the 80s as it is today

I'd say it was easier, teams were averaging 106-107 ORTG while barely taking any 3s. And if you watch the games, the transition defence in particular was way worse than today even in the playoffs.

In the 80s they were more efficient shooting a higher overall percentage.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

[AleksandarN]

In the 80s were just a high scoring era as today. It was just as easy to score in the 80s as it is today

Are people trying to argue Jokic as the best offensive player ever because of his scoring, though? I hope not. He's 2nd in the league in ppg this season. That would be the first time ever he's finished top 5 in ppg in a single season (which to me makes it crazy to say he's the best offensive player ever).

He's in the discussion for his assists, I assume. You can definitely argue that assists are easier to get these days, with the spacing of the floor, and teams playing guys who are much more capable (and willing to shoot) on catch and shoot opportunities. For Jokic in particular, they use him so much in DHO action or have guys cutting off him for 1 pass shots. He leads the league passes per game and is 2nd in pptential assists per game. Edres point regarding Lebrons stats is a valid way to look at stats these days. He averaged 25/7/8 last year, and is/was far from his peak playing days.

The point with the 80's is that assists and points aren't meaningfully higher or lower today.

I just grabbed 1985 cause you know middle of the decade.

Points per game 110.8
Assists per game 26.3

Today

113.1
26.1

So we have 2.3 more points per game and 0.2 less assists per game.

Also in the 80s shooting a better overall percentage from the field

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

[dhsilv2]

Are people trying to argue Jokic as the best offensive player ever because of his scoring, though? I hope not. He's 2nd in the league in ppg this season. That would be the first time ever he's finished top 5 in ppg in a single season (which to me makes it crazy to say he's the best offensive player ever).

He's in the discussion for his assists, I assume. You can definitely argue that assists are easier to get these days, with the spacing of the floor, and teams playing guys who are much more capable (and willing to shoot) on catch and shoot opportunities. For Jokic in particular, they use him so much in DHO action or have guys cutting off him for 1 pass shots. He leads the league passes per game and is 2nd in pptential assists per game. Edres point regarding Lebrons stats is a valid way to look at stats these days. He averaged 25/7/8 last year, and is/was far from his peak playing days.

The point with the 80's is that assists and points aren't meaningfully higher or lower today.

I just grabbed 1985 cause you know middle of the decade.

Points per game 110.8
Assists per game 26.3

Today

113.1
26.1

So we have 2.3 more points per game and 0.2 less assists per game.

Also in the 80s shooting a better overall percentage from the field

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

Well that's largely more 2's vs 3's. And then they augmented that with a lot more free throws. Not sure that does a lot for stats overall.

[levon]

He's never even hit a 9 in total RAPM. Steph did it 4 years in a row with worse D-RAPM than Jokic. I'd have Steph higher than Jokic and LeBron higher than Steph, just in the last two eras alone.

[scrabbarista]

Pretty sure he's currently crushing the all-time record for individual Offensive Rating.

Per StatMuse he's at 130.0. The record is like 124 or something.

This info is from a recent Dunc'd on podcast. You won't see these numbers on bbref or nba.com. They said "I doubt he maintains 130, but I could see him setting the record."

Note he's also doing this with MPJ and Braun as his two best offensive teammates.

[MrPainfulTruth]

He's never even hit a 9 in total RAPM. Steph did it 4 years in a row with worse D-RAPM than Jokic. I'd have Steph higher than Jokic and LeBron higher than Steph, just in the last two eras alone.

ok, thanks for sharing.

[jbsays]

The point with the 80's is that assists and points aren't meaningfully higher or lower today.

I just grabbed 1985 cause you know middle of the decade.

Points per game 110.8
Assists per game 26.3

Today

113.1
26.1

So we have 2.3 more points per game and 0.2 less assists per game.

I mean, yeah, points per game and assists per game are pretty correlated for teams, as when someone scores, the person who passed it gets an assist.

I'm just talking in general, for an individual, the other players on the court now are more versatile/capable scorers and shooters than in the 80s for example. Actions are much more direct leading to shots, and lots of 3pa. Especially with how Denver uses Jokic in DHO action or with guys cutting when he has the ball. He leads the league in passes per game and is second in potential assists per game. So he gets a lot of assists. For many a player you'd hear they are stat padding in that regard. Not Nikola though. He's the best offensive player ever, despite never finishing in the top 5 in ppg.

If it's not Jokic, Magic is likely the next guy up with MJ right there. And did Magic even make the top 10 in ppg?

But even your point below doesn't hold up to any scrutiny.

Top 3 in assists per game this year.

Trae 12.3
Jokic 10.2
Cunningham 9.4

1985

Thomas 13.9
Magic 12.6
Moore 10.0

A lot of people on here are not high on Isiah Thomas at all. I've read things like he is the worst best player on a team to ever win a championship.

I disagree with that as he was pretty much the 2nd best PG in the NBA for a decade.

As for Jokic... he's clearly the best offensive player of his generation.

[AleksandarN]

He's never even hit a 9 in total RAPM. Steph did it 4 years in a row with worse D-RAPM than Jokic. I'd have Steph higher than Jokic and LeBron higher than Steph, just in the last two eras alone.

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[og15]

The point with the 80's is that assists and points aren't meaningfully higher or lower today.

I just grabbed 1985 cause you know middle of the decade.

Points per game 110.8
Assists per game 26.3

Today

113.1
26.1

So we have 2.3 more points per game and 0.2 less assists per game.

Also in the 80s shooting a better overall percentage from the field

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

Well that's largely more 2's vs 3's. And then they augmented that with a lot more free throws. Not sure that does a lot for stats overall.

Since 2PT jumpshots land at a higher percentage, even if they are less efficient, assisting on more two point jumpshots should technically get you more apg than assisting on three's even though it will give you fewer points as a team.