PG: Raptors lose to defending western conference champions

[ATLTimekeeper]

For sure, I don't think anyone has ever disputed that the top 5 produces better players than the rest of the draft.

The real argument though is whether or not tanking to get said #1 option leads you to more success vs other methods. There is really not a lot of evidence that is the case.

Yup and I honestly didn't even know the numbers at the time, but just wanted to pressure test the statement.

It turns out in the 'modern NBA' it isn't quite the case. Probably for a whole bunch of factors.

The only constant is no matter what, you have to get insanely lucky in one way or the other. Either get insane lottery ball luck, get a home run trade, find a 1st team all-nba talent outside the top 5 and add them to a team better than those generally in the bottom 5, sign a free agent, etc.

Tatum/Brown are not evidence that tanking works. They are evidence that outsourcing your tank through luck works.
Duncan is not evidence tanking works. Duncan is evidence that getting a HOFer to add to your HOFer is luck that works.

And on the flip side

Jokic is not evidence drafting in the 2nd round always works. He is evidence getting lucky in the 2nd round first.
Kawhi is not evidence trading for a guy drafted outside the lottery always works, it is evidence making a good pick works.

Every single NBA champ has "something" that is not something you can rely on to have success

There are so many variables, so there's just no need for sanctimony over what works best. Nothing works well! No strategy. Your job as a GM is to build a winner first, and then get out of your own ****ing way if you happen to be lucky enough to get that special talent.

[Clutch0z24]

I was simply answering a question which was posted by another poster on the forum in a discussion.....Which you jumped into to attack without reading what the conversation was even about....I don't see the problem in answering a question posed by a poster....

Disagreeing with you isn't attacking.

And just because it doesn't fit your narrative does not mean it doesn't work anymore....Why do the smart Gms around the league play the drafting game so much?....Makes you wonder ey? ...Danny Ainge one of the better Gms ever....Always plays the drafting game to any team he goes to....Celtics now the Jazz, Jerry west...One of the best ever....Liked to play the draft...GSW, Clippers, Lakers...He always was a guy who liked playing the draft....Presti...One of the best has a track record of playing the draft to succeed....

Ainge has 1 title - and it certainly had more to do with signing a FA and trading for Garnett than the draft

Jerry West? He won titles with the Lakers sure, but he signed on for the 1982-83 AFTER they already won 2 titles in that dynasty, and signed on with the Warriors after they had already drafted Curry Klay and Draymond.

Presti? Did he win a title?

Just because YOU don't like it does not mean it isn't viable strategy to use and that it "Doesn't" Work anymore when it clearly does...And its not some ancient concept lmao...

Again - this is a strawman. I never said it is not a viable strategy, and I also never said it doesn't work anymore. That is you making up arguments and constantly ignoring what everyone else is saying.

The Celtics who just won the damn title is a product of drafting high to succeed with Tatum/Brown...

Ah yes, the Celtics who were gift wrapped multiple lottery picks they did not have to tank to use. Why are we even using this as some pro-tank argument? To bad the Pacers are not dumb like the Nets and didn't give us 5 unprotected firsts. Again - DIFFERENT ERA OF BASKETBALL.

Lol ....Your missing the point with the Celtics picks...Did the Celtics ever win a title with the Isaiah Thomas treadmill type of teams?...No they had some playoff series but they never had a chance to actually win ....It doesn't matter how they got the picks They are still having success off the backs of having 2 top 3 picks which ended up with them winning a title......No one ever said we had to blow up the team to get a high pick either...Right now we are picking 4th in the draft lotto if it were to happen today....With no trades or nothing...

Draft picks matter if you and your team mid friends like to be mad about it all you want ....History shows that....Numbers don't lie no matter how mad you wanna get or argue with me....Statistically it benefitted teams to have multiple high draft picks on their teams...

[Duffman100]

We were talking about this question Which i answered....And yeah the answer comes back as ....Players did infact have more success with teams they were drafted to vs teams they played for later in their careers by a large margin.

The question was top 5...

...And yeah who even said anything about top 5 anyways?....

Man if you're trolling, good job. If you aren't...

[Clutch0z24]

The question was top 5...

...And yeah who even said anything about top 5 anyways?....

Man if you're trolling, good job. If you aren't...

For me i never pushed a narrative for top 5....I always said top 7 because sometimes franchise players slip through the cracks....Like this draft it could be Tre Johnson who might just end up in that 6-7th spot and i would not be mad at that pick at all....Its just historically and statistically you want to be higher....The higher the better....But if someone is mad picking 6-7th ok...Thats not me...But at 8-9-10-11 it gets more of a gamble and more likely you end up with just a role player rather than a star...

[Duffman100]

...And yeah who even said anything about top 5 anyways?....

Man if you're trolling, good job. If you aren't...

For me i never pushed a narrative for top 5....I always said top 7 because sometimes franchise players slip through the cracks....Like this draft it could be Tre Johnson who might just end up in that 6-7th spot and i would not be mad at that pick at all....Its just historically and statistically you want to be higher....The higher the better....But if someone is mad picking 6-7th ok...Thats not me...But at 8-9-10-11 it gets more of a gamble and more likely you end up with just a role player rather than a star...

You spent the entire other PG thread responding to the top 5 comment. I didn't even make the top 5 comment, I was just pressure testing it.

And why are you convieniently using top 7... I wonder.

[Clutch0z24]

Man if you're trolling, good job. If you aren't...

For me i never pushed a narrative for top 5....I always said top 7 because sometimes franchise players slip through the cracks....Like this draft it could be Tre Johnson who might just end up in that 6-7th spot and i would not be mad at that pick at all....Its just historically and statistically you want to be higher....The higher the better....But if someone is mad picking 6-7th ok...Thats not me...But at 8-9-10-11 it gets more of a gamble and more likely you end up with just a role player rather than a star...

You spent the entire other PG thread responding to the top 5 comment. I didn't even make the top 5 comment, I was just pressure testing it.

And why are you convieniently using top 7... I wonder.

You can go back and read my history of posts i always said top 7 with Discussions with other posters.....I was talking about top 5 because you brought up top 5...And yes...Having a top 5 pick still is historically better than 6-7th but its not the end of the world being in that range because there is also a lottery at play which you have a good chance to jump up...

It gets dicey after that range because 1. your chances to jump up are slim, and 2. The chances of 8-9-10-11-12 other franchises passing up on a franchise player if there is one in the draft is pretty small...

I can make an argument that top 5 is still better than picking outside of it because history and numbers show that to be true....But for me its not the end of the world because i like players in this draft class still at 6-7 range...And not all draft classes are equal..

[Duffman100]

For me i never pushed a narrative for top 5....I always said top 7 because sometimes franchise players slip through the cracks....Like this draft it could be Tre Johnson who might just end up in that 6-7th spot and i would not be mad at that pick at all....Its just historically and statistically you want to be higher....The higher the better....But if someone is mad picking 6-7th ok...Thats not me...But at 8-9-10-11 it gets more of a gamble and more likely you end up with just a role player rather than a star...

You spent the entire other PG thread responding to the top 5 comment. I didn't even make the top 5 comment, I was just pressure testing it.

And why are you convieniently using top 7... I wonder.

You can go back and read my history of posts i always said top 7 with Discussions with other posters.....I was talking about top 5 because you brought up top 5...And yes...Having a top 5 pick still is historically better than 6-7th but its not the end of the world being in that range because there is also a lottery at play which you have a good chance to jump up...

It gets dicey after that range because 1. your chances to jump up are slim, and 2. The chances of 8-9-10-11-12 other franchises passing up on a franchise player if there is one in the draft is pretty small...

I can make an argument that top 5 is still better than picking outside of it because history and numbers show that to be true....But for me its not the end of the world because i like players in this draft class still at 6-7 range...And not all draft classes are equal..

I didn't bring up top 5.

[YogurtProducer]

Lol ....Your missing the point with the Celtics picks...Did the Celtics ever win a title with the Isaiah Thomas treadmill type of teams?...No they had some playoff series but they never had a chance to actually win ....It doesn't matter how they got the picks They are still having success off the backs of having 2 top 3 picks which ended up with them winning a title......No one ever said we had to blow up the team to get a high pick either...Right now we are picking 4th in the draft lotto if it were to happen today....With no trades or nothing...

No, YOU are missing the point with the Celtics picks. It 100% matters why they got those picks because context **** matters

If you seriously don't think there is some serious context to those Boston picks that landed Tatum and Brown I simply do not know what to say. Tatum and Brown were top 3 picks added to a 48-34 Celtics team. That would be like if we had top 3 picks in 2022 and 2023 after going 48-34 with FVV/OG/Siakam/Barnes in 2022. Pretty sure we would be a contender right now to if we could have added Wemby and Chet to that core

The only reason the Celtics Isaiah Thomas treadmill type of team was able to go to what they are now is because they got gift wrapped those picks and could add them to an already good team with a great supporting cast that included guys like Kyrie, Hayward, Horford, Bradley, Crowder, etc.

Add Tatum and Brown to a Celtics team without those pieces and there is a very legitimate question if they would be A) as good as they are today and B) even if they were, would BOS been able to surround them with the same amount of talent.

Draft picks matter if you and your team mid friends like to be mad about it all you want ....History shows that....

No one has ever said draft picks don't matter - again, you are making a strawman.

Numbers don't lie no matter how mad you wanna get or argue with me....Statistically it benefitted teams to have multiple high draft picks on their teams...

Sure, again, not one person has disputed the value of high draft picks. History also shows that there is significantly more to team building than "get high draft picks".

Even on that list you keep posting, it includes players drafted all over the place. Jokic was 41st. Kawhi was 15th. Curry was 7th. Dirk was 9th. Pierce was 10th. Kobe was 13th. Wade was 4th. Billups was 3rd. MJ was not even 1st.

But you want to know what that list does not include? All those top 5 picks that never won a goddamn thing with the teams that took them. Ranging from busts like Anthony Bennett or Andrea Bargnani, to HOFers like Chris Paul or Dwight Howard, to guys who left their team and won elsewhere like Lebron or Chris Bosh, to all the other guys you ignore.

Yes. The majority of elite players are drafted in the top 5. Let me be clear when I say this, that is not the dispute. You have been told a hundred times now what other peoples stances are, and you willingly ignore it to act superior like you know something no one else does.

The irony is, in actuality you just continue to look like a fool. Only a fool is unable to see the arguments that others are making. I understand your argument, and not once have I disputed the reality of where the elite players come from. Yet on the other side, you refuse to acknowledge that your tanking fetish is not foolproof, and you refuse to acknowledge that there are other legitimate ways of building a team that have been becoming increasingly successful in the modern NBA.

[sidsid]

He simply doesn't read responses. He just posts the same **** over, and over, and over without even stopping to try and understand other peoples points.

Everything he argues is a strawman no one has said.

To be clear the original statement was,

"You're more likely to find your #1 option that will lead you to the NBA finals in the top 5 of the draft vs other methods"


And the language around it was you (the team) were the drafter of that player.

For sure, I don't think anyone has ever disputed that the top 5 produces better players than the rest of the draft.

The real argument though is whether or not tanking to get said #1 option leads you to more success vs other methods. There is really not a lot of evidence that is the case.

Getting back to the eras argument. It isn't about the effectiveness of the quality of the top end of the draft approach. The efficiency of team building still heavily leans towards efficient high end asset accumulation over other approaches (unless you're the Lakers). More than ever now in the apron era.

The league has only made it easier to retain stars as it has aged. We wouldn't have lost TMac in the Carter era had RFA existed during his rookie contract, as an example.

The 2 things that have changed is the expansion era, and analytics era eliminating a lot of market inefficiencies. You can only discover Europe once before everyone else like San Antonio did.

[YogurtProducer]

To be clear the original statement was,

"You're more likely to find your #1 option that will lead you to the NBA finals in the top 5 of the draft vs other methods"


And the language around it was you (the team) were the drafter of that player.

For sure, I don't think anyone has ever disputed that the top 5 produces better players than the rest of the draft.

The real argument though is whether or not tanking to get said #1 option leads you to more success vs other methods. There is really not a lot of evidence that is the case.

Getting back to the eras argument. It isn't about the effectiveness of the quality of the top end of the draft approach. The efficiency of team building still heavily leans towards efficient high end asset accumulation over other approaches (unless you're the Lakers). More than ever now in the apron era.

The league has only made it easier to retain stars as it has aged. We wouldn't have lost TMac in the Carter era had RFA existed during his rookie contract, as an example.

The 2 things that have changed is the expansion era, and analytics era eliminating a lot of market inefficiencies. You can only discover Europe once before everyone else like San Antonio did.

I agree.

But again, the question of the best way to have efficient high end asset accumulation is the question. And the answer is not always the same for all teams. For a team like the Wizards who are **** horrible with absolutely zero light at the end of the tunnel, a full on tank is their best bet. For a team like the Raptors who have decent players all who are young, the answer might be a bit different.

This is an art as much as it is a science.

[Clutch0z24]

Lol ....Your missing the point with the Celtics picks...Did the Celtics ever win a title with the Isaiah Thomas treadmill type of teams?...No they had some playoff series but they never had a chance to actually win ....It doesn't matter how they got the picks They are still having success off the backs of having 2 top 3 picks which ended up with them winning a title......No one ever said we had to blow up the team to get a high pick either...Right now we are picking 4th in the draft lotto if it were to happen today....With no trades or nothing...

No, YOU are missing the point with the Celtics picks. It 100% matters why they got those picks because context **** matters

If you seriously don't think there is some serious context to those Boston picks that landed Tatum and Brown I simply do not know what to say. Tatum and Brown were top 3 picks added to a 48-34 Celtics team. That would be like if we had top 3 picks in 2022 and 2023 after going 48-34 with FVV/OG/Siakam/Barnes in 2022. Pretty sure we would be a contender right now to if we could have added Wemby and Chet to that core

The only reason the Celtics Isaiah Thomas treadmill type of team was able to go to what they are now is because they got gift wrapped those picks and could add them to an already good team with a great supporting cast that included guys like Kyrie, Hayward, Horford, Bradley, Crowder, etc.

Add Tatum and Brown to a Celtics team without those pieces and there is a very legitimate question if they would be A) as good as they are today and B) even if they were, would BOS been able to surround them with the same amount of talent.

Draft picks matter if you and your team mid friends like to be mad about it all you want ....History shows that....

No one has ever said draft picks don't matter - again, you are making a strawman.

Numbers don't lie no matter how mad you wanna get or argue with me....Statistically it benefitted teams to have multiple high draft picks on their teams...

Sure, again, not one person has disputed the value of high draft picks. History also shows that there is significantly more to team building than "get high draft picks".

Even on that list you keep posting, it includes players drafted all over the place. Jokic was 41st. Kawhi was 15th. Curry was 7th. Dirk was 9th. Pierce was 10th. Kobe was 13th. Wade was 4th. Billups was 3rd. MJ was not even 1st.

But you want to know what that list does not include? All those top 5 picks that never won a goddamn thing with the teams that took them. Ranging from busts like Anthony Bennett or Andrea Bargnani, to HOFers like Chris Paul or Dwight Howard, to guys who left their team and won elsewhere like Lebron or Chris Bosh, to all the other guys you ignore.

Yes. The majority of elite players are drafted in the top 5. Let me be clear when I say this, that is not the dispute. You have been told a hundred times now what other peoples stances are, and you willingly ignore it to act superior like you know something no one else does.

The irony is, in actuality you just continue to look like a fool. Only a fool is unable to see the arguments that others are making. I understand your argument, and not once have I disputed the reality of where the elite players come from. Yet on the other side, you refuse to acknowledge that your tanking fetish is not foolproof, and you refuse to acknowledge that there are other legitimate ways of building a team that have been becoming increasingly successful in the modern NBA.

No matter how much you want to stomp your feet and throw your fists....The Celtics team still would never have won with that treadmill team they had with Thomas leading them......They still needed high end draft picks to win it...Regardless how they got the picks if they did not add Tatum/Brown they never win the title by running it back with Thomas year after year...It took the draft picks to actually win the title is the point...Just like it took the many other greats that teams drafted and won with....

I never said there are no other options to win as well....you are putting words in my mouth or have this thought in your head with something i never said....I said its in our best interest with the way the season has gone so far , I simply pointed out we are not a free agent destination, We do not have the trade assets right now to go all in on any star who becomes available (If ever one does because the market Is not there right now)....It will take all of our future draft Picks + all of our good young players to get said player vs potentially just adding one in a good draft class that we are already top 5 in....

I don't think i ever said "Lets trade all of our players bottom out and get a top pick year after year" I clearly stated by logic we are already a bad team on the year....We have decent young players to build with, And we are not winning anything this season so it would benefit us adding the best player we can via draft, And then you may really start to become like the Celtics we are talking about with Barnes/Dick/high drafted player to build with...Alongside Barrett/IQ.....

You also fail to see my POV and just say "Oh you wanna tank year after year" when no one said that....Most want to get one draft pick this year (We are already on track to do so) and then try and compete as soon as next year....

[YogurtProducer]

Lol ....Your missing the point with the Celtics picks...Did the Celtics ever win a title with the Isaiah Thomas treadmill type of teams?...No they had some playoff series but they never had a chance to actually win ....It doesn't matter how they got the picks They are still having success off the backs of having 2 top 3 picks which ended up with them winning a title......No one ever said we had to blow up the team to get a high pick either...Right now we are picking 4th in the draft lotto if it were to happen today....With no trades or nothing...

No, YOU are missing the point with the Celtics picks. It 100% matters why they got those picks because context **** matters

If you seriously don't think there is some serious context to those Boston picks that landed Tatum and Brown I simply do not know what to say. Tatum and Brown were top 3 picks added to a 48-34 Celtics team. That would be like if we had top 3 picks in 2022 and 2023 after going 48-34 with FVV/OG/Siakam/Barnes in 2022. Pretty sure we would be a contender right now to if we could have added Wemby and Chet to that core

The only reason the Celtics Isaiah Thomas treadmill type of team was able to go to what they are now is because they got gift wrapped those picks and could add them to an already good team with a great supporting cast that included guys like Kyrie, Hayward, Horford, Bradley, Crowder, etc.

Add Tatum and Brown to a Celtics team without those pieces and there is a very legitimate question if they would be A) as good as they are today and B) even if they were, would BOS been able to surround them with the same amount of talent.

Draft picks matter if you and your team mid friends like to be mad about it all you want ....History shows that....

No one has ever said draft picks don't matter - again, you are making a strawman.

Numbers don't lie no matter how mad you wanna get or argue with me....Statistically it benefitted teams to have multiple high draft picks on their teams...

Sure, again, not one person has disputed the value of high draft picks. History also shows that there is significantly more to team building than "get high draft picks".

Even on that list you keep posting, it includes players drafted all over the place. Jokic was 41st. Kawhi was 15th. Curry was 7th. Dirk was 9th. Pierce was 10th. Kobe was 13th. Wade was 4th. Billups was 3rd. MJ was not even 1st.

But you want to know what that list does not include? All those top 5 picks that never won a goddamn thing with the teams that took them. Ranging from busts like Anthony Bennett or Andrea Bargnani, to HOFers like Chris Paul or Dwight Howard, to guys who left their team and won elsewhere like Lebron or Chris Bosh, to all the other guys you ignore.

Yes. The majority of elite players are drafted in the top 5. Let me be clear when I say this, that is not the dispute. You have been told a hundred times now what other peoples stances are, and you willingly ignore it to act superior like you know something no one else does.

The irony is, in actuality you just continue to look like a fool. Only a fool is unable to see the arguments that others are making. I understand your argument, and not once have I disputed the reality of where the elite players come from. Yet on the other side, you refuse to acknowledge that your tanking fetish is not foolproof, and you refuse to acknowledge that there are other legitimate ways of building a team that have been becoming increasingly successful in the modern NBA.

No matter how much you want to stomp your feet and throw your fists....The Celtics team still would never have won with that treadmill team they had with Thomas leading them......They still needed high end draft picks to win it...Regardless how they got the picks if they did not add Tatum/Brown they never win the title by running it back with Thomas year after year...It took the draft picks to actually win the title is the point...Just like it took the many other greats that teams drafted and won with....

I never said there are no other options to win as well....you are putting words in my mouth or have this thought in your head with something i never said....I said its in our best interest with the way the season has gone so far , I simply pointed out we are not a free agent destination, We do not have the trade assets right now to go all in on any star who becomes available (If ever one does because the market Is not there right now)....It will take all of our future draft Picks + all of our good young players to get said player vs potentially just adding one in a good draft class that we are already top 5 in....

I don't think i ever said "Lets trade all of our players bottom out and get a top pick year after year" I clearly stated by logic we are already a bad team on the year....We have decent young players to build with, And we are not winning anything this season so it would benefit us adding the best player we can via draft, And then you may really start to become like the Celtics we are talking about with Barnes/Dick/high drafted player to build with...Alongside Barrett/IQ.... .

You also fail to see my POV and just say "Oh you wanna tank year after year" when no one said that.

Please read my posts before responding, because you’re making abundantly clear you’re responding to what you think I’m saying, and not what I actually am saying.

Everyone of your posts can be summed up as “clutch arguing things no one said”.