PG: Knicks vs Raps- 12/9/24

[KnixinSix]

Inability to stay in front of your man isn’t a “Thibs system” issue. That’s a player issue. But yes because they do suck at guarding on the perimeter and constantly give up drives, a rim protector would help a great deal because they can at least have some cover in the paint and not have it become a layup line like last night and throughout most of the season so far.

Actually while you might be right it can be more nuanced than that. For instance what type of leverage is Thibs having them play. What type of positioning is he asking them to play? A lot can contribute to waht on the surface seems like just 'crappy' D by the player.

Highly doubt that the gameplan is to give up layups and 3s. No coach, especially Thibs, is wanting them to give up both. Might be one or the other but not both which is what we do

Depends on how its coached and/or are the able to execute it or if its not a great fit for their skillset ot if it's just too complicated. And then
If it's one of the above it may.Affect seeing them free lancing sometime out there to make it worse.

There is most definitely nuances here

[Guano]

Read on Twitter

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Never let being wrong stop me from being wrong again

[KnixinSix]

RJ still has negative impact on winning per EPM. That's mainly because his defense is consistently awful, and even his improvement on offense doesn't offset that.

He plays like a prince on defense, as if it’s beneath him to run back in transition, provide help in the paint or take a charge. He leaves it to the peasants on the team. StarJ has a bigger fish to fry - he needs to keep his energy for offense because he has a prophecy of fulfill.

It's a shame because he has the tools to become at least average on defense, as he showed in his sophomore year. So it’s really an effort and mindset issue.

His offense is trending upwards, which is nice to see, but he'll never have a positive impact on winning if his defense doesn't improve. It's abhorrently terrible for a wing player.

OG is a much more impactful player even of he tries to do much less. Unlike RJ, he does the dirty work, and he doesn't hijack the offense for raw production.

One of the two fits the cultural heritage of the Knicks, and the other doesn't. I'm glad the one who does is on our team, and the other is gone.

Well said.

[stuporman]

Looking at how Robinson plays, I don't know if it is feasible to play him and Towns together.

Yea, how could KAT play with a defensive rim running center...

[Chanel Bomber]

From RJ - in this game we saw all the things we loved from him and the things that pissed us off in one package. Raptors have him playing much more in transition and quick actions in the halfcourt, which plays to his strengths. He looked dominant getting to the cup and made some nifty passes out of his drives in both scenarios. However, he was lame on defense and when the game tightened and became more of a halfcourt matchup he wasn't as effective, even blowing a late game drive that would have knotted it up.

In conclusion,

I mean, I realize the spammed RJ/Randle stuff in every thread is 90% trolling, but it's kind of fun now that they're gone because they are really of the same order. Both are high volume, inefficient scorers on the whole, who can look like cornerstones for short moments in time if you squint just right, but whose lows are calamitous. Yes, there are clear differences - RJ clearly has a better team attitude, Julius clearly has more physical talent - but what they bring to the table in terms of how they produce relative to their peers is the same.

Not to mention the total lack of commitment to playing defense. Different forms, but in essence not too dissimilar.

[R-DAWG]

We really need another wing that can defend and make a 3 that thibs trusts...just someone that can give us 10-12 mins.

Jeff Green ?!

Given what we have seen out of Pacome, he looks like he could give us +/- 10 regular season minutes. In the playoffs, you play your guys 40 minutes if need be.

[Capn'O]

RJ still has negative impact on winning per EPM. That's mainly because his defense is consistently awful, and even his improvement on offense doesn't offset that.

He plays like a prince on defense, as if it’s beneath him to run back in transition, provide help in the paint or take a charge. He leaves it to the peasants on the team. StarJ has a bigger fish to fry - he needs to keep his energy for offense because he has a prophecy of fulfill.

It's a shame because he has the tools to become at least average on defense, as he showed in his sophomore year. So it’s really an effort and mindset issue.

His offense is trending upwards, which is nice to see, but he'll never have a positive impact on winning if his defense doesn't improve. It's abhorrently terrible for a wing player.

OG is a much more impactful player even of he tries to do much less. Unlike RJ, he does the dirty work, and he doesn't hijack the offense for raw production.

One of the two fits the cultural heritage of the Knicks, and the other doesn't. I'm glad the one who does is on our team, and the other is gone.

No lies spoken. I'm very grateful that our front office was able to find a trade partner who did see the value and potential value he brings, plus, providing them a local product to help fan sentiment during a rebuild.

You know my policy on players who bring production:

Spoiler:

There's almost always a good deal for those guys even if there's a strong negative case on them. And we found a very good deal.

[stuporman]

Something to consider...we wanted Brunson to be more of a playmaker and distributor and he has been more of that. Although, when he was more 'score first', he was also less turnovers but as he tries to be more of a distributor he will probably have more turnovers.

This is something we will have to accept, we want him to not be as risky with the ball but he's going to turn it over more than he has previously because he's trying to get it to other players more.

[K_ick_God]

Not worth talking about the empty stat padder with no accolades and a negative 2 BPM on the 2nd worst team in the east. If there’s a traded Knicks draft pick worth talking about it’s THJ. The Pistons are playing well, they beat us, and his advanced stats are much better than RJ. If I had to take one back it would be THJ

RJ can finish and his passing is really much better than people realize. He does get bogged down and turns it over, and then his jumper is not really reliable, but he's worked hard on it. Mixed bag kind of but his production stands out. He needs to do less.

[Jalen Bluntson]

You've been here long enough to not know the cope mantra... .500 till new year's day. As inconsistent as they have been so far this season they are still 14-9.

15-9 which puts them 8th best in the league with the number 1 offense. IMO they are still not completely there and we are about 1/3 of the way into the season but they have definitely surpassed my expectations thus far. I thought we would be .500 till January.

The concept '.500 till new year's day' is based on that Thib's Knicks teams have been around .500 until new year's day when they tend to surge later in the season as that particular season's roster jels and becomes more consistent. I have been saying it repeatedly through the beginning of the season to give some context to it.

The fact that this group is ahead of that pace while still not playing up to their potential consistently shows something. Excetly what I'm not going to say but I can speculate that once the 'new year's day' threshold passes we may get a fuller picture of what they can be.

There's going to be inconsistent stretches and performances earlier in the season if Thib's past Knicks teams are any indication that get ironed out and they grow in cohesiveness on both ends of the court as they season goes along. This is what history tells us but time will tell what this team does.

One year they traded for D Rose early FEB. 11-14 record to the 4 seed
One year they traded for Josh early FEB. 30-26 record to the 5 seed
One year they traded for OG/Precious on new years day. 17-15 record to the 2 seed

All three years the team surged from around .500 to the playoffs. Seems the mid season trades had the most impact. Perhaps getting Mitch back around then may have similar results or, they make another trade and find the right piece.

[bballoctober]

Classic corner airball before that too

Thank you Leon for moving on from a losing player. He is perfect for that trash franchise up north.

Best trade of all time. Classic stat padding toxic losing player that does nothing to win. Cant believe he had a cult behind him. Nothing better than seeing him ruin our rival craptors.

Just the revenge for this mofo!

You know what?! Just because he succeeded that move on KG, I’m going to forgive him. But he injured himself trying to dunk over Thaddeus Young, the same way he injured himself a year earlier. Ha haha ha, can’t make this up!!!

[robillionaire]

The concept '.500 till new year's day' is based on that Thib's Knicks teams have been around .500 until new year's day when they tend to surge later in the season as that particular season's roster jels and becomes more consistent. I have been saying it repeatedly through the beginning of the season to give some context to it.

The fact that this group is ahead of that pace while still not playing up to their potential consistently shows something. Excetly what I'm not going to say but I can speculate that once the 'new year's day' threshold passes we may get a fuller picture of what they can be.

There's going to be inconsistent stretches and performances earlier in the season if Thib's past Knicks teams are any indication that get ironed out and they grow in cohesiveness on both ends of the court as they season goes along. This is what history tells us but time will tell what this team does.

Well a lot of that is from making a trade around New Year’s Day like trading for Rose, Josh Hart, or OG not because the team grew in cohesiveness. (We also tried this with scam in 2022 but it didn’t work out)

I don’t think we need one as badly this time since we are already a pretty solid team but we’ve done something 4 years in a row now. Personally I expect a Mitch trade

Every effing season is the evidence, not your rationalization about why you think it applies or doesn't based on selective reasoning. Every year it's the same thing, it takes awhile for his teams to get it together. Just because a couple of those years a 'super glue guy' was added mid season doesn't change that it happens...every. effing. season.

Of course, Rose was traded for in Dec, OG in Jan and Hart in Feb yet even though it's different months they showed up it's almost the exact same time table of the positive progression of the team's playing. So again, evidence shows one thing and it's not your reasoning. Did they contribute to it? Yea, sure, definitely some of it but not all because it's been happening every. effing. season.

EVERY. EFFING. SEASON. ...but sure, means nothing at all.

Well let’s dissect that, he’s been the coach the prior 4 seasons and in 3 out of those 4 seasons where we did go on a big run we added the players I mentioned who came in an made an immediate impact leading to a winning streak and in the other one we added scam he didn’t make an impact and there was no turnaround in that season and we missed the playoffs. I am unconvinced those season turnarounds happen without Rose Hart or OG. In fact it’s hard to say we we just built cohesion when we added vital parts to the lineup that needed to be worked in

[stuporman]

15-9 which puts them 8th best in the league with the number 1 offense. IMO they are still not completely there and we are about 1/3 of the way into the season but they have definitely surpassed my expectations thus far. I thought we would be .500 till January.

The concept '.500 till new year's day' is based on that Thib's Knicks teams have been around .500 until new year's day when they tend to surge later in the season as that particular season's roster jels and becomes more consistent. I have been saying it repeatedly through the beginning of the season to give some context to it.

The fact that this group is ahead of that pace while still not playing up to their potential consistently shows something. Excetly what I'm not going to say but I can speculate that once the 'new year's day' threshold passes we may get a fuller picture of what they can be.

There's going to be inconsistent stretches and performances earlier in the season if Thib's past Knicks teams are any indication that get ironed out and they grow in cohesiveness on both ends of the court as they season goes along. This is what history tells us but time will tell what this team does.

One year they traded for D Rose early FEB. 11-14 record to the 4 seed
One year they traded for Josh early FEB. 30-26 record to the 5 seed
One year they traded for OG/Precious on new years day. 17-15 record to the 2 seed

All three years the team surged from around .500 to the playoffs. Seems the mid season trades had the most impact. Perhaps getting Mitch back around then may have similar results or, they make another trade and find the right piece.

If the Knicks already had Rose...then why were the struggling to start the next year?

If the Knicks already had Hart...then why were they struggling to start the next year?

If the Knicks already had Hart AND OG(and KAT and MB)...they why are they struggling(in some aspects) to start the next year?

Again, it's been the pattern EVERY. EFFING. SEASON. Why, I don't know but I just look at the historical data, every year it takes a little while for his Knicks team to get in a rhythm on both ends of the court. This year the talent is so high they have a better than .500 record but they are certainly still struggling in some aspects.

We also can see how some of those issues are starting to come together, rim protection was woeful for the first dozen or so games but it's been better the past dozen or so games. Now let's hope they can clean up the perimeter defense, especially the 3ball defense as the season goes along.

When it does and the team really starts to click and surge at...oh, let's say....after new year's day...don't be surprised.

[Chanel Bomber]

RJ still has negative impact on winning per EPM. That's mainly because his defense is consistently awful, and even his improvement on offense doesn't offset that.

He plays like a prince on defense, as if it’s beneath him to run back in transition, provide help in the paint or take a charge. He leaves it to the peasants on the team. StarJ has a bigger fish to fry - he needs to keep his energy for offense because he has a prophecy of fulfill.

It's a shame because he has the tools to become at least average on defense, as he showed in his sophomore year. So it’s really an effort and mindset issue.

His offense is trending upwards, which is nice to see, but he'll never have a positive impact on winning if his defense doesn't improve. It's abhorrently terrible for a wing player.

OG is a much more impactful player even of he tries to do much less. Unlike RJ, he does the dirty work, and he doesn't hijack the offense for raw production.

One of the two fits the cultural heritage of the Knicks, and the other doesn't. I'm glad the one who does is on our team, and the other is gone.

No lies spoken. I'm very grateful that our front office was able to find a trade partner who did see the value and potential value he brings, plus, providing them a local product to help fan sentiment during a rebuild.

You know my policy on players who bring production:

Spoiler:

There's almost always a good deal for those guys even if there's a strong negative case on them. And we found a very good deal.

Yes agreed.

I would make the case that we could've gotten more for him if they had traded him earlier, but IQ's value hit its peak while RJ's was at its lowest, and we were still able to package them together for an upgrade. So in the end, can't complain.

I hope he finds team success in Toronto and remains part of their return to relevance but he'll need to care about the defensive end to play a significant part in that happening. Otherwise he'll be a force conducive to treadmill outcomes.

[Deeeez Knicks]

The last defensive play by OG is more of a testament to OG being a phenomenal defender... Maybe one of the best wing defenders in the league. No shame in being stopped by him. RJ was actually getting the better of the matchups for most of the night and kept the Raptors in the game.

RJ just never really fit in well here but turning into a good player. OG is the much better fit and better player. That was a great trade for the Knicks, as was KAT. Front office has made a lot of really good decisions

[stuporman]

Well a lot of that is from making a trade around New Year’s Day like trading for Rose, Josh Hart, or OG not because the team grew in cohesiveness. (We also tried this with scam in 2022 but it didn’t work out)

I don’t think we need one as badly this time since we are already a pretty solid team but we’ve done something 4 years in a row now. Personally I expect a Mitch trade

Every effing season is the evidence, not your rationalization about why you think it applies or doesn't based on selective reasoning. Every year it's the same thing, it takes awhile for his teams to get it together. Just because a couple of those years a 'super glue guy' was added mid season doesn't change that it happens...every. effing. season.

Of course, Rose was traded for in Dec, OG in Jan and Hart in Feb yet even though it's different months they showed up it's almost the exact same time table of the positive progression of the team's playing. So again, evidence shows one thing and it's not your reasoning. Did they contribute to it? Yea, sure, definitely some of it but not all because it's been happening every. effing. season.

EVERY. EFFING. SEASON. ...but sure, means nothing at all.

Well let’s dissect that, he’s been the coach the prior 4 seasons and in 3 out of those 4 seasons where we did go on a big run we added the players I mentioned who came in an made an immediate impact leading to a winning streak and in the other one we added scam he didn’t make an impact and there was no turnaround in that season and we missed the playoffs. I am unconvinced those season turnarounds happen without Rose Hart or OG. In fact it’s hard to we we just built cohesion when we added vital parts to the lineup that needed to be worked in

I already dissected it for you but then you actually dumbed it down to miss important details.

If Rose was such a catalyst to the surge, then why did the Knicks struggle to start the next season?

If Hart was such a catalyst to the surge, then why did the Knicks struggle to start the next season?

You're 'dissection' falls flat on closer inspection...but ignore the obvious, his Knicks teams take a little while to get better. It may have something to do with the player turnover each off season but that's just speculation, what I do know...it's EVERY. EFFING. SEASON.

[HEZI]

RJ almost single handedly beat us at full strength. That’s impressive to me. Not sure about that core group around him, Jakobe Walter second leading scorer last night? Who is that? But they have a chance to rebuild and put some pieces in place to be competitive in a few years. That IQ contract looking bad though

[Deeeez Knicks]

RJ already became a 20ppg on league avg efficiency which we were told was impossible.... RJ can def continue to get better as we have seen.

[HEZI]

RJ already became a 20ppg on league avg efficiency which we were told was impossible.... RJ can def continue to get better as we have seen.

He’s still only 24. Would be one of the youngest players on the team still. Our core is almost 30 and he almost beat us by himself. Kid has definitely gotten better and the game has slowed down a lot for him. He now is very comfortable getting to his spots. He’s one of the few guys that I’ve seen OG actually struggle to defend

[robillionaire]

Every effing season is the evidence, not your rationalization about why you think it applies or doesn't based on selective reasoning. Every year it's the same thing, it takes awhile for his teams to get it together. Just because a couple of those years a 'super glue guy' was added mid season doesn't change that it happens...every. effing. season.

Of course, Rose was traded for in Dec, OG in Jan and Hart in Feb yet even though it's different months they showed up it's almost the exact same time table of the positive progression of the team's playing. So again, evidence shows one thing and it's not your reasoning. Did they contribute to it? Yea, sure, definitely some of it but not all because it's been happening every. effing. season.

EVERY. EFFING. SEASON. ...but sure, means nothing at all.

Well let’s dissect that, he’s been the coach the prior 4 seasons and in 3 out of those 4 seasons where we did go on a big run we added the players I mentioned who came in an made an immediate impact leading to a winning streak and in the other one we added scam he didn’t make an impact and there was no turnaround in that season and we missed the playoffs. I am unconvinced those season turnarounds happen without Rose Hart or OG. In fact it’s hard to we we just built cohesion when we added vital parts to the lineup that needed to be worked in

I already dissected it for you but then you actually dumbed it down to miss important details.

If Rose was such a catalyst to the surge, then why did the Knicks struggle to start the next season?

If Hart was such a catalyst to the surge, then why did the Knicks struggle to start the next season?

You're 'dissection' falls flat on closer inspection...but ignore the obvious, his Knicks teams take a little while to get better. It may have something to do with the player turnover each off season but that's just speculation, what I do know...it's EVERY. EFFING. SEASON.

The thing you keep aggressively putting in all caps with periods isn’t even true because I’ve pointed out an outlier season in which it didn’t happen. So how would you explain that?

To answer your questions, the season after rose, well for one he got older, got injured, and looked a bit washed, two they made bad offseason moves with Kemba and Fournier

The season after Hart I mostly chalk up to Randle coming back from offseason surgery and getting off to a very poor start before ultimately getting healthy rounding into form and making the all star team. But that’s also the year we traded RJ for OG and immediately went 13-1 following that trade

I think another big factor in the turnarounds is Thibs shortening the lineup after 20-30 games and benching guys who aren’t working out like he did with Fournier and Reddish. But that’s not an option this time because we are already running a short lineup. So there’s no “addition by subtraction” type moves available this time