Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year

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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#201 » by SweaterBae » Wed Dec 11, 2024 5:30 am

Patches Perry wrote:
PhilBlackson wrote:As individual players, give me SGA.

People are using TEAM accolades to dispute a discussion on individual players. Is Tatum better than Jokic or Giannis if he gets a second ring & has a gold medal over them?! lol.


I agree, and I'll take it further.

I'm not sure what the argument for Tatum is over Jaylen Brown if Tatum gets to pull the champion/gold medal card against any player who doesn't have a championship/gold medal. Especially given that Brown won both CFMVP and FMVP. For the record, I think Tatum is better than Brown, but that's based on body of work, which has nothing to do with the arguments being made about being on the winning team making you better than any player that hasn't won. Or arbitrary individual stats in favor of a holistic view of stats.

It seems like people just compile whatever stats and accomplishments they can to justify their pre-existing opinions, which is largely just based on their intuition and how much they like a player's game and personality.

I have Tatum in the 5-7 range and SGA in the 3-4 range, so it can be argued for either player I suppose, but the argument itself matters. Some of the reasoning in this thread is just nonsense.


And if Tatum played for OKC and SGA for Boston you'd say the opposite.
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#202 » by Ssj16 » Wed Dec 11, 2024 5:32 am

HotRocks34 wrote:Let's look at the final two games of the 2024 DAL vs OKC series. It was 2-2 and going back to OKC.

DAL wins G5 in OKC (3-2 DAL)

LD....31/10/11; 27.2 Gm Sc; 134/107 O/DRTG
SG....30/06/08; 24.5 Gm Sc; 117/117 O/DRTG


DAL wins G6 in DAL (4-2 DAL)

LD....29/10/10; 25.5 Gm Sc; 131/118 O/D
SG....36/03/08; 29.6 Gm Sc; 138/129 O/D


So season on the line and injured, Luka averages a thirty point triple double with a better individual DRTG and NRTG than Shai in the pair of games and goes 2-0 while sending home his second #1 seed in three seasons.

And I'm supposed to believe Shai outplayed him?

:lol:

Shai's good. Luka is better.


Your initial premise was that Shai choked away the series and compared him to Embiid. Based on Shai's stats and that they were consistent with his regular season stats and when you factor in it was his first time in the second round and when you factor in the full series and he arguably had similar stats to Luka if not better, how do you come up with an asinine premise that he wet the bed?
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#203 » by Patches Perry » Wed Dec 11, 2024 5:37 am

SweaterBae wrote:
Patches Perry wrote:
PhilBlackson wrote:As individual players, give me SGA.

People are using TEAM accolades to dispute a discussion on individual players. Is Tatum better than Jokic or Giannis if he gets a second ring & has a gold medal over them?! lol.


I agree, and I'll take it further.

I'm not sure what the argument for Tatum is over Jaylen Brown if Tatum gets to pull the champion/gold medal card against any player who doesn't have a championship/gold medal. Especially given that Brown won both CFMVP and FMVP. For the record, I think Tatum is better than Brown, but that's based on body of work, which has nothing to do with the arguments being made about being on the winning team making you better than any player that hasn't won. Or arbitrary individual stats in favor of a holistic view of stats.

It seems like people just compile whatever stats and accomplishments they can to justify their pre-existing opinions, which is largely just based on their intuition and how much they like a player's game and personality.

I have Tatum in the 5-7 range and SGA in the 3-4 range, so it can be argued for either player I suppose, but the argument itself matters. Some of the reasoning in this thread is just nonsense.


And if Tatum played for OKC and SGA for Boston you'd say the opposite.


I doubt it. I think Luka is better than SGA all things considered, and Luka plays for a much more direct rival to OKC than Boston.
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#204 » by HotRocks34 » Wed Dec 11, 2024 5:40 am

Ssj16 wrote:
HotRocks34 wrote:Let's look at the final two games of the 2024 DAL vs OKC series. It was 2-2 and going back to OKC.

DAL wins G5 in OKC (3-2 DAL)

LD....31/10/11; 27.2 Gm Sc; 134/107 O/DRTG
SG....30/06/08; 24.5 Gm Sc; 117/117 O/DRTG


DAL wins G6 in DAL (4-2 DAL)

LD....29/10/10; 25.5 Gm Sc; 131/118 O/D
SG....36/03/08; 29.6 Gm Sc; 138/129 O/D


So season on the line and injured, Luka averages a thirty point triple double with a better individual DRTG and NRTG than Shai in the pair of games and goes 2-0 while sending home his second #1 seed in three seasons.

And I'm supposed to believe Shai outplayed him?

:lol:

Shai's good. Luka is better.


Your initial premise was that Shai choked away the series and compared him to Embiid. Based on Shai's stats and that they were consistent with his regular season stats and when you factor in it was his first time in the second round and when you factor in the full series and he arguably had similar stats to Luka if not better, how do you come up with an asinine premise that he wet the bed?


Luka outplayed him when it mattered.

He choked a #1 seed as Embiid did in 2021.

If you get outplayed by an injured guy as a #1 seed in a season that your fans think you should have been MVP in, you probably underachieved.

No shame in losing to Luka, though. That is true.
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#205 » by srhcan » Wed Dec 11, 2024 6:12 am

Where Luka comes in this thread? If you want to compare Luka & SGA & Tatum then start a new thread.

This thread is about SGA and Tatum, and SGA beats Tatum hands down.
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#206 » by Lo Wang » Wed Dec 11, 2024 6:16 am

doogie_hauser wrote:
HotRocks34 wrote:
Ssj16 wrote:
Shai is most certainly not Embiid. Shai was impressive last year in the playoffs from what I recalled. Shai also was very impressive in the Olympics and unlike NBA couldn't fall back on a hall of fame team.

Embiid definitely has more to prove in the playoffs at this point in time based on all his poor performances.


Shai has proven absolutely nothing when it matters and had a negative On Off in the playoffs last year.

He's Embiid until he shows otherwise. A guy who maxes out in the regular season but who can't make it past the second round when it counts even on a #1 seed.


I feel like Shai is absolutely going to wet the bed in the playoffs again. Just a feeling I have had for a while.


What are you talking about?

32.2/8/7.3 59.9% TS

If you are calling that wetting the bed, then I don't know what you would consider a good performance.
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#207 » by DCasey91 » Wed Dec 11, 2024 6:32 am

Tatum chucks, is super versatile on both sides of the ball, and plays mad defence

SGA sometimes chucks, there'll be enough evidence in due time saying he's an ATG 1 on 1 player, crazy finisher, very good defender for his position

Both super valuable to their teams chances.
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#208 » by Lo Wang » Wed Dec 11, 2024 6:33 am

The people who are saying Luka outplayed SGA clearly have not watched the games. SGA played better than him and Kai COMBINED. It got so bad they started coming up with excuses he was injured ... only to have him play in the Olympics a few months after the finals (if he's truly injured he should be resting).
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#209 » by SpreeS » Wed Dec 11, 2024 7:06 am

So far in this season

1. Shai
2. Tatum
3. Doncic
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#210 » by Ticket » Wed Dec 11, 2024 12:32 pm

Let's just fast forward to the Finals and see them go mano a mano
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#211 » by tsherkin » Wed Dec 11, 2024 12:37 pm

Ticket wrote:Let's just fast forward to the Finals and see them go mano a mano


OKC/Boston would be an interesting matchup.
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#212 » by srhcan » Wed Dec 11, 2024 12:40 pm

SpreeS wrote:So far in this season

1. Shai
2. Tatum
3. Doncic

Luka has started slow this season but he is catching fire. Tatum on the other hand, has overachieved this season and may come down. By the end of season it could be

1. SGA/Luka
2. Luka/SGA
3. Tatum
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#213 » by tsherkin » Wed Dec 11, 2024 12:46 pm

srhcan wrote:
SpreeS wrote:So far in this season

1. Shai
2. Tatum
3. Doncic

Luka has started slow this season but he is catching fire. Tatum on the other hand, has overachieved this season and may come down. By the end of season it could be

1. SGA/Luka
2. Luka/SGA
3. Tatum


Tatum appears to be Tatum'g. He's shooting a little more, mostly from 3, at the expense of shots in close. Passing pretty well. I don't know that he's overachieving. His scoring average is within tolerance for the past two seasons, he's a shade under 60% TS, which is actually a little low for him.

I think he might be more overextending himself than anything, but he's still doing quite well.
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#214 » by 165bows » Wed Dec 11, 2024 12:54 pm

srhcan wrote:
SpreeS wrote:So far in this season

1. Shai
2. Tatum
3. Doncic

Luka has started slow this season but he is catching fire. Tatum on the other hand, has overachieved this season and may come down. By the end of season it could be

1. SGA/Luka
2. Luka/SGA
3. Tatum

It’s weird this tendency for people to reward and consistency.
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#215 » by Mavrelous » Wed Dec 11, 2024 12:59 pm

I think SGA is the best player in the league right now if we look at this year only, he's overcome injuries to his team, and is utilizing his team to the fullest potential, but to claim he outplayed Luka in a series he lost when Kyrie was very limited? If you want to hail his offensive game and he did have ATG clutch performance in games 4 and 6, at least acknowlege the fact Dallas went for the players they were hiding SGA on and he couldn't stop them and these players feasted, I still see the myth of him being a great defender thrown around when OKC had 3 elite on ball defenders running around and Chet had ATG series defensively.
He lost as the favourite coming in with a fully healthy roster, acknowlege this and move on...
Tatum is a very hard pill to swallow, he doesn't look like the best player eye test wise, his stats come up a bit short, but he repeatedly carried the Celtics into deep PO runs despite lots injuries and setbacks, his accomplishments year in year out has to be accounted for, his game also, fits any system on both ends, is a huge plus, he's really hard to rank, but I don't fault anyone rating him higher.
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#216 » by Ssj16 » Wed Dec 11, 2024 1:08 pm

HotRocks34 wrote:
Ssj16 wrote:
HotRocks34 wrote:Let's look at the final two games of the 2024 DAL vs OKC series. It was 2-2 and going back to OKC.

DAL wins G5 in OKC (3-2 DAL)

LD....31/10/11; 27.2 Gm Sc; 134/107 O/DRTG
SG....30/06/08; 24.5 Gm Sc; 117/117 O/DRTG


DAL wins G6 in DAL (4-2 DAL)

LD....29/10/10; 25.5 Gm Sc; 131/118 O/D
SG....36/03/08; 29.6 Gm Sc; 138/129 O/D


So season on the line and injured, Luka averages a thirty point triple double with a better individual DRTG and NRTG than Shai in the pair of games and goes 2-0 while sending home his second #1 seed in three seasons.

And I'm supposed to believe Shai outplayed him?

:lol:

Shai's good. Luka is better.


Your initial premise was that Shai choked away the series and compared him to Embiid. Based on Shai's stats and that they were consistent with his regular season stats and when you factor in it was his first time in the second round and when you factor in the full series and he arguably had similar stats to Luka if not better, how do you come up with an asinine premise that he wet the bed?


Luka outplayed him when it mattered.

He choked a #1 seed as Embiid did in 2021.

If you get outplayed by an injured guy as a #1 seed in a season that your fans think you should have been MVP in, you probably underachieved.

No shame in losing to Luka, though. That is true.


I'm sorry, I don't think you're using "choke" in the right context. Choking means you play below your standard and you freeze up in the moment, especially based on expectations. Shai played to his standards if not better considering the circumstances. This was also a young team with barely playoff experience.

Based on this premise most teams and superstar players choke in the playoffs because it's rare when a number seed makes it to the finals.

Lastly, you've created a strawman's argument because the mavs under Luka generally place as a lower seed in the playoffs meaning it doesn't give Luka a chance to "choke" because he's generally teams with better records.

If you don't see how brittle or flawed this logic is just because you have a bias towards Luka, again I don't know what to tell you.
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#217 » by Ssj16 » Wed Dec 11, 2024 1:14 pm

Mavrelous wrote:I think SGA is the best player in the league right now if we look at this year only, he's overcome injuries to his team, and is utilizing his team to the fullest potential, but to claim he outplayed Luka in a series he lost when Kyrie was very limited? If you want to hail his offensive game and he did have ATG clutch performance in games 4 and 6, at least acknowlege the fact Dallas went for the players they were hiding SGA on and he couldn't stop them and these players feasted, I still see the myth of him being a great defender thrown around when OKC had 3 elite on ball defenders running around and Chet had ATG series defensively.
He lost as the favourite coming in with a fully healthy roster, acknowlege this and move on...
Tatum is a very hard pill to swallow, he doesn't look like the best player eye test wise, his stats come up a bit short, but he repeatedly carried the Celtics into deep PO runs despite lots injuries and setbacks, his accomplishments year in year out has to be accounted for, his game also, fits any system on both ends, is a huge plus, he's really hard to rank, but I don't fault anyone rating him higher.


You think SGA is better than Jokic? I agree if someone wants to give Shai the MVP over Jokic but better than Jokic?

Could you imagine Jokic in this OKC team and conversely SGA on the Nuggets if they did a 1:1 swap?
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#218 » by Mavrelous » Wed Dec 11, 2024 1:37 pm

Ssj16 wrote:
Mavrelous wrote:I think SGA is the best player in the league right now if we look at this year only, he's overcome injuries to his team, and is utilizing his team to the fullest potential, but to claim he outplayed Luka in a series he lost when Kyrie was very limited? If you want to hail his offensive game and he did have ATG clutch performance in games 4 and 6, at least acknowlege the fact Dallas went for the players they were hiding SGA on and he couldn't stop them and these players feasted, I still see the myth of him being a great defender thrown around when OKC had 3 elite on ball defenders running around and Chet had ATG series defensively.
He lost as the favourite coming in with a fully healthy roster, acknowlege this and move on...
Tatum is a very hard pill to swallow, he doesn't look like the best player eye test wise, his stats come up a bit short, but he repeatedly carried the Celtics into deep PO runs despite lots injuries and setbacks, his accomplishments year in year out has to be accounted for, his game also, fits any system on both ends, is a huge plus, he's really hard to rank, but I don't fault anyone rating him higher.


You think SGA is better than Jokic? I agree if someone wants to give Shai the MVP over Jokic but better than Jokic?

Could you imagine Jokic in this OKC team and conversely SGA on the Nuggets if they did a 1:1 swap?


I think Jokic is the best player if we account for legacy, but this year SGA is the best.
OKC is better supporting cast than DEN for sure this year, but last year they were pretty close in supporting cast and delivered similar results, so, when in doubt, reward auccess, people overrate OKC supporting cast offensively, they aren't that great, SGA is doing an underrated job offensively (while being overrated on defense).
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#219 » by tsherkin » Wed Dec 11, 2024 1:48 pm

Mavrelous wrote:Tatum is a very hard pill to swallow, he doesn't look like the best player eye test wise, his stats come up a bit short, but he repeatedly carried the Celtics into deep PO runs despite lots injuries and setbacks, his accomplishments year in year out has to be accounted for, his game also, fits any system on both ends, is a huge plus, he's really hard to rank, but I don't fault anyone rating him higher.


With Tatum, it's a mix of things.

On one hand, he's pretty good. His raw averages are impressive, and he shoulders a decent amount of offensive responsibility pretty well overall. He's an excellent defender, a very versatile player, and he can occupy different spots on offense off-ball, which helps when he's having an off-night.

But as we saw last postseason during the championship run, Boston was able to win while he was pretty bad at hitting his shots. He looked brutal against the Heat, but was crushing the boards and putting huge foul pressure on them. Basically couldn't hit a shot to save his life but he was still effective driving offense. And Miami was a top-5 D last year. But Brown and White picked up the slack and despite his ugly raw percentages, he was less than half a percent below playoff league average efficiency, which isn't bad against a D like that. He was a little better against the Cavs and the Pacers. His performance versus Indy was actually a little disappointing given how bad they were on D. He put up the volume, but he had some big stinkers in that series too. Boston was able to pretty much coast along, because they have so much talent and so much efficacy at either end.

And then he was putrid against Dallas for the first two games, weak in game 3, okay in game 5 and the only game where he was scoring efficiently was his 15-point performance in Game 4 when Dallas blew them out (and even in that, he was 4/10 from the floor and 6/6 at the line).

So he's a tough one to evaluate for me and I waffle a lot over where to rank him. Tatum is a contemporary guy; he spams a lot of 3s. When they don't drop, he looks bad. But he posts and he PnRs and he's got quickness and a handle and stuff. He's pretty adept and slithery. When he isn't chucking from 3, he looks much better. And he's been growing year after year as a passer, which is nice. It's also nice that he can get off-ball and let the other guys do their thing, use himself as a decoy, etc. That isn't a trivial thing.

I think he's overrated by some as a scorer, but he does basically everything else quite well, which starts to shape the narrative of his ability a little, too. He's quite a good rebounder, he's positionally versatile, he's an excellent defender, he can catch-and-shoot, not just take stepbacks. He can be the handler or the screener in the PnR. He posts. Like, there basically isn't a spot on the floor he can't be, which makes enabling everyone else around him easier. Very high portability, I'd imagine. He's been a solid +4.0 O-EPM type of guy for several years now, which is pretty good but not usually top-10 type of thing.
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Re: Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year 

Post#220 » by NZB2323 » Wed Dec 11, 2024 6:01 pm

HotRocks34 wrote:
Ssj16 wrote:
HotRocks34 wrote:Let's look at the final two games of the 2024 DAL vs OKC series. It was 2-2 and going back to OKC.

DAL wins G5 in OKC (3-2 DAL)

LD....31/10/11; 27.2 Gm Sc; 134/107 O/DRTG
SG....30/06/08; 24.5 Gm Sc; 117/117 O/DRTG


DAL wins G6 in DAL (4-2 DAL)

LD....29/10/10; 25.5 Gm Sc; 131/118 O/D
SG....36/03/08; 29.6 Gm Sc; 138/129 O/D


So season on the line and injured, Luka averages a thirty point triple double with a better individual DRTG and NRTG than Shai in the pair of games and goes 2-0 while sending home his second #1 seed in three seasons.

And I'm supposed to believe Shai outplayed him?

:lol:

Shai's good. Luka is better.


Your initial premise was that Shai choked away the series and compared him to Embiid. Based on Shai's stats and that they were consistent with his regular season stats and when you factor in it was his first time in the second round and when you factor in the full series and he arguably had similar stats to Luka if not better, how do you come up with an asinine premise that he wet the bed?


Luka outplayed him when it mattered.

He choked a #1 seed as Embiid did in 2021.

If you get outplayed by an injured guy as a #1 seed in a season that your fans think you should have been MVP in, you probably underachieved.

No shame in losing to Luka, though. That is true.


In game 6 SGA had 36, 8, and 3, 0 turnovers on 64.1 TS%, 29.6 GmSc.

If we look at the series against the Mavs

SGA: 32, 8, and 7, 2 turnovers, 59.9 TS%, 27.6 GmSc
Luka: 25, 11, and 9, 4.5 turnovers, 56.6 TS%, 20.5 GmSc
Tatum: 22, 8, and 7, 3 turnvoers, 50.5 TS%, 16.4 GmSc

NBA players who have lost as the 1st seed include Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Dirk, KG, and Curry.

Only Jordan never lost with homecourt advantage.

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