Did Shai surpass Jayson Tatum last year

[Capn'O]

The Thunder choked last playoffs as young teams often do. In that effort, SGA played magnificently.

They need somebody else to step up in the playoffs. They let PJ Washington look like late-prime Dirk out there.

[slick_watts]

it's hard for me to say tatum since shai is a lot more consistent. i think shai also has a lot more gravity as a ball handler, creating more space for his teammates who collectively aren't as skilled offensively as boston's. every AIO metric seems to have shai ahead of tatum this year (and closer to jokic than tatum is to him). i'm not seeing what the argument for tatum would be right now. defense? tatum's better on the defensive boards by a little but how much is that really worth.

[Jaqua92]

it's hard for me to say tatum since shai is a lot more consistent. i think shai also has a lot more gravity as a ball handler, creating more space for his teammates who collectively aren't as skilled offensively as boston's. every AIO metric seems to have shai ahead of tatum this year (and closer to jokic than tatum is to him). i'm not seeing what the argument for tatum would be right now. defense? tatum's better on the defensive boards by a little but how much is that really worth.

Tatum faces doubles and routinely collapses defenses on his drives. He's got massive gravity. There are a few metrics Tatum leads SGA in.

But the only real advantage here is scoring effeciency - though Tatum has higher peaks.

Tatum is a more versatile player across the board, he's a comparible playmaker, at worst - having multiple ball handling guards takes the ball off Tatum's hands and he plays off ball well.

Tatum is also a much better defender

[Ssj16]

Your initial premise was that Shai choked away the series and compared him to Embiid. Based on Shai's stats and that they were consistent with his regular season stats and when you factor in it was his first time in the second round and when you factor in the full series and he arguably had similar stats to Luka if not better, how do you come up with an asinine premise that he wet the bed?

Luka outplayed him when it mattered.

He choked a #1 seed as Embiid did in 2021.

If you get outplayed by an injured guy as a #1 seed in a season that your fans think you should have been MVP in, you probably underachieved.

No shame in losing to Luka, though. That is true.

In game 6 SGA had 36, 8, and 3, 0 turnovers on 64.1 TS%, 29.6 GmSc.

If we look at the series against the Mavs

SGA: 32, 8, and 7, 2 turnovers, 59.9 TS%, 27.6 GmSc
Luka: 25, 11, and 9, 4.5 turnovers, 56.6 TS%, 20.5 GmSc
Tatum: 22, 8, and 7, 3 turnvoers, 50.5 TS%, 16.4 GmSc

NBA players who have lost as the 1st seed include Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Dirk, KG, and Curry.

Only Jordan never lost with homecourt advantage.

It's so crazy it has to be spelt out like this. I don't get the point on diminishing SGA to prop up Luka. It reeks of insecurity.

I still think Luka is better than SGA at the moment but to say SGA choked in that series is beyond preposterous.

[Woodsanity]

it's hard for me to say tatum since shai is a lot more consistent. i think shai also has a lot more gravity as a ball handler, creating more space for his teammates who collectively aren't as skilled offensively as boston's. every AIO metric seems to have shai ahead of tatum this year (and closer to jokic than tatum is to him). i'm not seeing what the argument for tatum would be right now. defense? tatum's better on the defensive boards by a little but how much is that really worth.

Tatum faces doubles and routinely collapses defenses on his drives. He's got massive gravity. There are a few metrics Tatum leads SGA in.

But the only real advantage here is scoring effeciency - though Tatum has higher peaks.

Tatum is a more versatile player across the board, he's a comparible playmaker, at worst - having multiple ball handling guards takes the ball off Tatum's hands and he plays off ball well.

Tatum is also a much better defender

Where is the proof Tatum is the better defender? Thunder are the best defensive team in the league right now. Tatum has worse defensive metrics.

Just a lot of saying with no proof whatsoever.

[Jaqua92]

Tatum is a very hard pill to swallow, he doesn't look like the best player eye test wise, his stats come up a bit short, but he repeatedly carried the Celtics into deep PO runs despite lots injuries and setbacks, his accomplishments year in year out has to be accounted for, his game also, fits any system on both ends, is a huge plus, he's really hard to rank, but I don't fault anyone rating him higher.

With Tatum, it's a mix of things.

On one hand, he's pretty good. His raw averages are impressive, and he shoulders a decent amount of offensive responsibility pretty well overall. He's an excellent defender, a very versatile player, and he can occupy different spots on offense off-ball, which helps when he's having an off-night.

But as we saw last postseason during the championship run, Boston was able to win while he was pretty bad at hitting his shots. He looked brutal against the Heat, but was crushing the boards and putting huge foul pressure on them. Basically couldn't hit a shot to save his life but he was still effective driving offense. And Miami was a top-5 D last year. But Brown and White picked up the slack and despite his ugly raw percentages, he was less than half a percent below playoff league average efficiency, which isn't bad against a D like that. He was a little better against the Cavs and the Pacers. His performance versus Indy was actually a little disappointing given how bad they were on D. He put up the volume, but he had some big stinkers in that series too. Boston was able to pretty much coast along, because they have so much talent and so much efficacy at either end.

And then he was putrid against Dallas for the first two games, weak in game 3, okay in game 5 and the only game where he was scoring efficiently was his 15-point performance in Game 4 when Dallas blew them out (and even in that, he was 4/10 from the floor and 6/6 at the line).

So he's a tough one to evaluate for me and I waffle a lot over where to rank him. Tatum is a contemporary guy; he spams a lot of 3s. When they don't drop, he looks bad. But he posts and he PnRs and he's got quickness and a handle and stuff. He's pretty adept and slithery. When he isn't chucking from 3, he looks much better. And he's been growing year after year as a passer, which is nice. It's also nice that he can get off-ball and let the other guys do their thing, use himself as a decoy, etc. That isn't a trivial thing.

I think he's overrated by some as a scorer, but he does basically everything else quite well, which starts to shape the narrative of his ability a little, too. He's quite a good rebounder, he's positionally versatile, he's an excellent defender, he can catch-and-shoot, not just take stepbacks. He can be the handler or the screener in the PnR. He posts. Like, there basically isn't a spot on the floor he can't be, which makes enabling everyone else around him easier. Very high portability, I'd imagine. He's been a solid +4.0 O-EPM type of guy for several years now, which is pretty good but not usually top-10 type of thing.

Tatums portability is his value. His impact is truly greater than the sum of his parts.

He just makes everyone's job easier. I think SGA is the better more reliable scorer but I can't think of a single thing outside of that he does better than Tatum.

Tatum is way too versatile and he's taken multiple versions of this team to the playoffs


Tatum isn't going to be that super effecient scorer, but when you take scoring out of the equation, he just provides more value than SGA due to his length, versatility and IQ.

[Jaqua92]

it's hard for me to say tatum since shai is a lot more consistent. i think shai also has a lot more gravity as a ball handler, creating more space for his teammates who collectively aren't as skilled offensively as boston's. every AIO metric seems to have shai ahead of tatum this year (and closer to jokic than tatum is to him). i'm not seeing what the argument for tatum would be right now. defense? tatum's better on the defensive boards by a little but how much is that really worth.

Tatum faces doubles and routinely collapses defenses on his drives. He's got massive gravity. There are a few metrics Tatum leads SGA in.

But the only real advantage here is scoring effeciency - though Tatum has higher peaks.

Tatum is a more versatile player across the board, he's a comparible playmaker, at worst - having multiple ball handling guards takes the ball off Tatum's hands and he plays off ball well.

Tatum is also a much better defender

Where is the proof Tatum is the better defender? Thunder are the best defensive team in the league right now. Tatum has worse defensive metrics.

Just a lot of saying with no proof whatsoever.

Defensive team.

Tatum is ranked better in D-LEBRON on a team that doesn't play with the same defensive identity.

Tatum is longer, he's more versatile and is just an overall better team defender.

If you're not going to acknowledge Tatum as the better defender than you aren't arguing in good faith. Come on man

[slick_watts]

Tatum faces doubles and routinely collapses defenses on his drives. He's got massive gravity.

i don't disagree that tatum has his own gravity, i don't think it's on the same level as shai's though. there's no real way to quantify this either way.

There are a few metrics Tatum leads SGA in.

which ones?

But the only real advantage here is scoring effeciency - though Tatum has higher peaks.

i think the way they score makes a big difference. shai generates more rim pressure than anyone else in the nba, 60% of tatum's shots are coming from 16 feet and out. he's great, of course, and commands plenty of attention. but imo shai is unique with the sort of pressure that he generates and what it does for his teammates.

Tatum is a more versatile player across the board, he's a comparible playmaker, at worst - having multiple ball handling guards takes the ball off Tatum's hands and he plays off ball well.

Tatum is also a much better defender

i just flat disagree with all of this.

[Hoop Hunter]

They are both without a doubt 1st Team All NBA. I don't think or care much past that.

Maybe if either was on "my" team I might care. I sure wish they were.

[srhcan]

it's hard for me to say tatum since shai is a lot more consistent. i think shai also has a lot more gravity as a ball handler, creating more space for his teammates who collectively aren't as skilled offensively as boston's. every AIO metric seems to have shai ahead of tatum this year (and closer to jokic than tatum is to him). i'm not seeing what the argument for tatum would be right now. defense? tatum's better on the defensive boards by a little but how much is that really worth.

Tatum faces doubles and routinely collapses defenses on his drives. He's got massive gravity. There are a few metrics Tatum leads SGA in.

But the only real advantage here is scoring effeciency - though Tatum has higher peaks.

Tatum is a more versatile player across the board, he's a comparible playmaker, at worst - having multiple ball handling guards takes the ball off Tatum's hands and he plays off ball well.

Tatum is also a much better defender

You have provided all garbage arguments. Just accept the truth that SGA > Tatum and move on. Whats the big deal ?

[tsherkin]

Tatums portability is his value. His impact is truly greater than the sum of his parts.

He just makes everyone's job easier. I think SGA is the better more reliable scorer but I can't think of a single thing outside of that he does better than Tatum.

Playmaking comes to mind immediately. Tatum's larger and often plays minutes at the 4, so he's a better rebounder. But yeah, mostly "offense" is where Shai's better.

Tatum isn't going to be that super effecient scorer, but when you take scoring out of the equation, he just provides more value than SGA due to his length, versatility and IQ.

No, I don't really agree with that. Tatum's good, but he's not on the same level as Shai. There's only so much value from versatility. He works well inside Boston's system, for sure, but we're not talking about a Lebron-type player in terms of that versatility.

[ITYSL]

As much as I love Tatum, Shai is better this season, both from a boxscore perspective (points, assists, stocks, TS%, BPM, VORP) and an impact perspective (EPM, LEBRON).

Tatum is more versatile in that he can play any position from primary playmaker on offense to defending 5s on D. To that extent, you could maybe argue that he's easier to build around. But I don't think that negates SGA's advantages everywhere else this season.

[Triple M]

How are we rating play making?

Shai leads the league in drives so he gets a lot of assists going down hill. I see Tatum is better at drawing in pressure and manipulating defenders to open passing lanes from the perimeter. OKC is a more complicated offense to run but im nor sure Shai is an versatile as a playmaker. Tatum might be benfiting more from the talent around him and simpler reads but i have to give him credit for his play making in the Finals. It was the biggest difference from his 22 finals performance because he cut down the TOs dramatically. If it was only court mapping then i think the Mavs would have keyed in on him

[HMFFL]

Current MVP Odds
Jokic -115
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander +325
Giannis Antetokounmpo +750
Jayson Tatum +1200

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using RealGM mobile app

[Triple M]

it's hard for me to say tatum since shai is a lot more consistent. i think shai also has a lot more gravity as a ball handler, creating more space for his teammates who collectively aren't as skilled offensively as boston's. every AIO metric seems to have shai ahead of tatum this year (and closer to jokic than tatum is to him). i'm not seeing what the argument for tatum would be right now. defense? tatum's better on the defensive boards by a little but how much is that really worth.

Tatum faces doubles and routinely collapses defenses on his drives. He's got massive gravity. There are a few metrics Tatum leads SGA in.

But the only real advantage here is scoring effeciency - though Tatum has higher peaks.

Tatum is a more versatile player across the board, he's a comparible playmaker, at worst - having multiple ball handling guards takes the ball off Tatum's hands and he plays off ball well.

Tatum is also a much better defender

Where is the proof Tatum is the better defender? Thunder are the best defensive team in the league right now. Tatum has worse defensive metrics.

Just a lot of saying with no proof whatsoever.

The Celtics have been a good defensive team almost every year since Tatum has been in the league. OKC's defense has only been better for 25 games. Im not sure if thats the best way to prove which player is the better defender but if i need a stop i could see some taking Tatum over Shai because of versatility but maybe some take Shai because there's more wing defenders than at guard.

One of the reasons im taking Tatum is because of how he matched up with Durant successfully and i dont really see Shai with that level of defensive abilities.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Current MVP Odds
Jokic -115
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander +325
Giannis Antetokounmpo +750
Jayson Tatum +1200

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using RealGM mobile app

Low odds for SGA considering the circumstances maybe. I can EASILY see Chet returning and OKC running off a huge win streak to win 65-70 games. Jokic on the reverse of that is having a top 3 all time season, but I'm not sure he can handle this load all year... and the Nuggets are a near .500 team. I think if they fall out of the playoff picture the narrative will become much harder to reward Jokic with a 4th MVP, and B2B.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Tatum faces doubles and routinely collapses defenses on his drives. He's got massive gravity. There are a few metrics Tatum leads SGA in.

But the only real advantage here is scoring effeciency - though Tatum has higher peaks.

Tatum is a more versatile player across the board, he's a comparible playmaker, at worst - having multiple ball handling guards takes the ball off Tatum's hands and he plays off ball well.

Tatum is also a much better defender

Where is the proof Tatum is the better defender? Thunder are the best defensive team in the league right now. Tatum has worse defensive metrics.

Just a lot of saying with no proof whatsoever.

The Celtics have been a good defensive team almost every year since Tatum has been in the league. OKC's defense has only been better for 25 games. Im not sure if thats the best way to prove which player is the better defender but if i need a stop i could see some taking Tatum over Shai because of versatility but maybe some take Shai because there's more wing defenders than at guard.

One of the reasons im taking Tatum is because of how he matched up with Durant successfully and i dont really see Shai with that level of defensive abilities.

They were the 3rd and 4th ranked defenses last year, extremely close statistically despite OKC being an incredibly young team without the years together. I realize Porzingis was out, but the point is both were elite of the elite defensively last year, so it's not just 25 games. One team was just more experienced, older, more disciplined. I think OKC has superior defensive talent top to bottom, and that's been made clear this year where OKC has put up incredibly dominant defense for the modern era despite missing Chet a bunch of games.

[Triple M]

They were the 3rd and 4th ranked defenses last year, extremely close statistically despite OKC being an incredibly young team without the years together. I realize Porzingis was out, but the point is both were elite of the elite defensively last year, so it's not just 25 games.

Its just 25 games that OKC has been better aa a team but again i tgat isn't the best way to rate individual denders anyway. I agree with the rest of what you wrote, yes OKC is much more serious team because of expierence gained and ultimately that will be what they need to answer all season long

[OkcSinceSGA]

They were the 3rd and 4th ranked defenses last year, extremely close statistically despite OKC being an incredibly young team without the years together. I realize Porzingis was out, but the point is both were elite of the elite defensively last year, so it's not just 25 games.

Its just 25 games that OKC has been better aa a team but again i tgat isn't the best way to rate individual denders anyway. I agree with the rest of what you wrote, yes OKC is much more serious team because of expierence gained and ultimately that will be what they need to answer all season long

I should have elaborated. It's not just 25 games of them being elite defensively (and Boston being .4 better DRTG or whatever last year isn't big enough for me to definitively say Boston was better last year). I think last year you could make an argument for either team being better defensively because they were so close. Boston was likely more stable defensively, but OKC had more terrifying defensive peaks IMO. Again a sign of a ton of raw talent, but really young team that swings a bit more.

[ITYSL]

In terms of defense, I took a quick look at each player's top 50 matchups this season. Tatum has allowed 13.8 pts per 100 possessions, while Shai has allowed 18.4 pts per 100 possessions. Also, Tatum has allowed 2.9 assists per 100 possessions, while Shai has allowed 3.8.

In terms of who they're defending:

C: Tatum 27% of defensive possessions, SGA 2%
PF: Tatum 22%, SGA 21%
SF: Tatum 23%, SGA 42%
SG: Tatum 21%, SGA 25%
PG: Tatum 7%, SGA 10%

So Tatum has better raw defensive numbers while more evenly defending all positions. I'd give him the edge on defense.