PG: Knicks vs ATL

[Jalen Bluntson]

A thibodeau coached team that relies more on offense than defense is asking for trouble.

What's your point? Brunson did NOT cost us that game last night. It was coaching and a team loss as a result. No single player shoulders the blame. Period. They came out and attacked our drop coverage over and over and took the game away. We did nothing different than we did in the first half. That's when we lost he game.

Could Jalen have played better? Sure. So could the entire team. 26% from 3. Brunson shot 2-6 33%. 60% from the line. Brunson went 2-3. The bench scored 14 pts. So did Brunson by himself. Brunson went 5-15/2-6. OG went 5-17/1-9. Brunson had 4 boards and 8 assist. OG had 3/1. Perhaps he cost us the game? No.

The point is there is so many greater things in this picture. There will be a multitude of reasons we can attribute to each loss when you look at them individually. But the biggest overarching factor by far is that without that elite rim protecting 5 like we had for Thibs basically every single year this team is missing a huge part of what makes his preffered system work.

Well... yeah! I was asking what that has to do with last night's game. Brunson was not THE reason. That's all. You basically agree in a round about way.

Go get Kessler!

[cgmw]

I hope you and your family are good too. Whatever you're going through, know you're good peoples.

I agree with the general sentiment about defense but Randle and Divo didn't defend. They were defensive weak links.

So it's not about swapping Randle/Divo for KAT/Mikal. There's no dropoff there.

We lost our defense when iHart walked for nothing and our boy Mitch suffered a setback in his recovery.

My guess is the FO thought acquiring Mikal could offset that loss and bring elite perimeter defense in addition to OG. The issue is Mikal is not elite, and in fact looks pretty average. So getting him didn't mitigate the loss of iHart and Mitch.

It’s Thibs’ refusal to abandon drop coverage. Our perimeter players aren’t fighting over picks with 110% playoff aggression because it’s a f*cking Wednesday in early December and that’s normal.

Without playoff aggression all 80 regular season games, even guys as talented as OG, Mikal, and Deuce will regularly go under picks therefore causing rotational chaos as Thibs refuses to let his center flash.

In the end, it’s dysfunction. But it’s better than we’ve ever had it before. Thibs won’t adjust to Leon’s personnel. Leon won’t panic into trading for the drop coverage rim protector Thibs stubbornly can’t live without.

I love this team but any sane adult can see it won’t end well in April/May after Thibs runs the starting 7 into the ground. Apparently he requires 8 starting caliber players plus 2 rim-protecting G-Leagers.

I don't think Thibs is the devil unlike other folks here, and there are some personnel issues, but these are fair points of criticism.

Also you've seen them play in person, and it must've jumped out at you.

Obviously, none of us should delude ourselves into thinking we could coach an NBA team like Thibs. He's in an entirely different universe in terms of knowledge and ability. And he's proven he can coach a team to relative success. But I think there is room for disagreement with Thibs on some more strategic (less so on the Xs and Os) questions. And we know that because coaches are not a homogenous group in terms of principles.

Oh, I don’t mean to come off as anti-Thibs. I see myself as more of a realist who accepts the obvious truth:

The price of regular-season success under Thibs is playoff burnout. If Leon wants Thibs, then he must stack the roster with a minimum of 8 start-worthy veterans plus 2 veteran rim protectors because Thibs won’t change.

The drop-coverage problem will cost us the occasional loss, but overall he wouldn’t keep doing it if it didn’t guarantee regular season wins. Problem is, it causes more physical contact for our perimeter defenders, our rotational defenders, and ultimately the poor guy left at the rim trying to block the shot.

In other words, it’s a physically taxing system that requires waves of backups. Leon can’t fire Thibs, so he needs to shift focus to acquiring depth.

[MrDollarBills]

so I did some research because OG shot and misses were alarming. Games after he plays 40 mins this is what he shoots from 3.

3-8
1-8
2-7
1-4
0-4
0-3
2-8
1-9

He has played at least 40 mins in 8 games and these are the results 10 for 51 from 3....19.6% from 3

Otherwise he is shooting 43.7% from 3 when he is coming off less than 40 mins.

I'm not even counting a 0-8 performance after playing 38 mins in DEN and we know what that does to your body 38 mins is basically over 40 in Denver or a 2-9 performance against TOR after playing 39 mins vs DET. Those two stats are even counting from above.

Call it nothing or happenstance but OG shooting plummets after playing near or close to 40 mins the game prior. We ask him to do so much defensively a guy legs can withstand only so much.

The minutes are too high across the board for all the core players outside of Brunson. This is a serious issue and I think that fatigue is the reason for a lot of crap that we've seen in these bad losses.

When KAT is sucking wind by the 2nd quarter and bricking FTs because he's played like what, damn near 20 mins straight, that's a serious issue.

I'm aggravated about the loss, and the minutes police is a fun joke that we play around with, but Thibs to me is going to cost this team heavily if he continues this.

Where is Dadiet? The team needs another wing in the rotation. Everyone kicks Mikal’s back in, and frankly I don't have an issue with it at all, but he's playing a ridiculous amount of minutes. OG looks like he just ran the NY Marathon after every half. KAT is taking punishment and playing non stop.

Open up the rotation. Mix the vets with the youth and let the vets lead instead of running everyone to death.

I like Thibs. But he needs to modernize his approach on offense and minutes rotations. I hate to keep pointing to Kenny Atkinson, but that guy will go ten deep with bench guys who aren't all that good and he gets them to run through a wall for him.

[NiceLikeChrist]

What will it take for thibs to get fired. What will it take. This is all I have to look forward to. I pray it happens this season so we have more time to gel meaningfully

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=W09F6FrMDfp5_y1gKYgF1g

**** Thibs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This needs to be posted on every page, what a joke of a coach. His secret sauce is playing his starters more than anyone else.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=W09F6FrMDfp5_y1gKYgF1g

**** Thibs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This needs to be posted on every page, what a joke of a coach. His secret sauce is playing his starters more than anyone else.

Wow. That's fuggin insane!

[MrDollarBills]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=W09F6FrMDfp5_y1gKYgF1g

**** Thibs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This needs to be posted on every page, what a joke of a coach. His secret sauce is playing his starters more than anyone else.

If I were Leon I'd be scared to death that one of these guys are gonna go down for the season. Fatigue absolutely can play a part in injuries. The main guys who I'm worried about are OG and KAT.

I dunno. I think the defensive issues and Mikal's inconsistency are serious issues but this to me might be the reason why everything falls apart in the 4th.

[NowWHYcee7]

We are on the cusp of....being a very good team. Contenders? Nah. I'm still keeping it positive thoug.

15-10 and 1.5 games from 7th place "really good"?

I hear you but I think we are slightly better than our record indicates. But even 100% healthy we aren't in Boston's league.

[Chanel Bomber]

It’s Thibs’ refusal to abandon drop coverage. Our perimeter players aren’t fighting over picks with 110% playoff aggression because it’s a f*cking Wednesday in early December and that’s normal.

Without playoff aggression all 80 regular season games, even guys as talented as OG, Mikal, and Deuce will regularly go under picks therefore causing rotational chaos as Thibs refuses to let his center flash.

In the end, it’s dysfunction. But it’s better than we’ve ever had it before. Thibs won’t adjust to Leon’s personnel. Leon won’t panic into trading for the drop coverage rim protector Thibs stubbornly can’t live without.

I love this team but any sane adult can see it won’t end well in April/May after Thibs runs the starting 7 into the ground. Apparently he requires 8 starting caliber players plus 2 rim-protecting G-Leagers.

I don't think Thibs is the devil unlike other folks here, and there are some personnel issues, but these are fair points of criticism.

Also you've seen them play in person, and it must've jumped out at you.

Obviously, none of us should delude ourselves into thinking we could coach an NBA team like Thibs. He's in an entirely different universe in terms of knowledge and ability. And he's proven he can coach a team to relative success. But I think there is room for disagreement with Thibs on some more strategic (less so on the Xs and Os) questions. And we know that because coaches are not a homogenous group in terms of principles.

Oh, I don’t mean to come off as anti-Thibs. I see myself as more of a realist who accepts the obvious truth:

The price of regular-season success under Thibs is playoff burnout. If Leon wants Thibs, then he must stack the roster with a minimum of 8 start-worthy veterans plus 2 veteran rim protectors because Thibs won’t change.

The drop-coverage problem will cost us the occasional loss, but overall he wouldn’t keep doing it if it didn’t guarantee regular season wins. Problem is, it causes more physical contact for our perimeter defenders, our rotational defenders, and ultimately the poor guy left at the rim trying to block the shot.

In other words, it’s a physically taxing system that requires waves of backups. Leon can’t fire Thibs, so he needs to shift focus to acquiring depth.

Sorry, I didn't mean to paint you as anti-Thibs, that's not what I took away from your post. I opened my post in this way as a disclaimer to express that, while I agree with the criticism you presented, I don't want to contribute to the notion some are pushing that Thibs (basically) doesn't know what he's doing.

I agree that giving Thibs a thin roster is probably not a wise idea.

[Adelheid]

give thibs an ironmen based team; he may not bring that squad to higher echelons but they would fit his needs much better.

this squad as built now, requires a finesse coach

ahhh i dont have to reprise being a minutes police when a lot of you are doing it anyway. The point is, Thibs being a maniac and a taskmaster, is real...but some people treat it as if its ok and alright thing to do. I suppose being a knicks fan and experiencing decades of crappy coaching hires will do this to you

This group is producing number one offense and its not because of thibs. This is a special group and the FO spent lots of picks to get to this point. Its criminal that the potential for a successful run is squandered just because

[thebuzzardman]

Eye test shows me that we miss Randle’s playmaking and gravity. Nobody can really create for our team besides Brunson. Randle was our de facto PG for the past years with Brunson. Brunson is struggling a bit trying to find that balance between scoring and playmaking.
Ihart is good, but he played awful in the post season. We could’ve replaced him with Nick Richards and ran it back.

What’s our net rating against teams that have a winning record?

We have the second best offense in the NBA, right behind Cleveland.

We certainly don't miss Randle's offense. Our offense is elite.

Where we suffered a loss was on defense and Randle was not a good defender for us. iHart and Mitch were the foundational pieces of our defense and one walked for nothing while the other's injured.

You're trying to put a square peg in a round hole with your Randle argument. It simply doesn't add up.

You’re over exaggerating Ihart’s impact a lot. His defense didn’t hold up at all in the post season. All we had to do was trade for a replacement like Nick Richards.

Our offense is a struggle against teams that switch. We saw how bad our offense was last night when nobody could create.

Our defense is substantially worse with KAT at the 5 which is why I didn’t want us to do this trade. We never had the issue with Randle here.

We have a pretty awful record against winning teams this season. Our net rating is boosted from beating up bad teams. What’s our net rating against winning teams?

I thought Mikal would offset SOME of Randle's creation, while Towns would provide space and real offense from the 5

For whatever reason, Mikal kind of sucks.
It's either him or how Thibs uses him or likely both.

And Hart is fun, ets, but he's too short to start as he's essentially a somewhat offensively challenged guard who rebounds well.
That's a 6th or 7th man.

This team gives me Melo, Chandler, Stat vibes.
Not put together well enough, capped out, low on assets

I guess the 45 win seasons and first round exits will be fun.

Then after that 5 years is up, 5 years in the trash heap being a lottery team only other teams have the 1st rounders.

Have a great day!

[thebuzzardman]

We are on the cusp of....being a very good team. Contenders? Nah. I'm still keeping it positive thoug.

15-10 and 1.5 games from 7th place "really good"?

I hear you but I think we are slightly better than our record indicates. But even 100% healthy we aren't in Boston's league.

Unsurprisingly I think they are worse.
Cupcake schedule
Can't beat bad teams
Can't beat teams that switch
Every good team they played had at least one starter out. Sometimes two.

This team is extremely mid.

[thebuzzardman]

At least the toxicity is back. This is the Knick experience I'm familiar with

[The KnicksFix]

At least the toxicity is back. This is the Knick experience I'm familiar with

It sucks, we were so so close last year. We lost ihart and decided to panic. We could have kept the nova 4, and figured out something for a rebounding big. Whenever we are close, (and this is not just relegated to Leon Rose) we decide to blow it up and go after big names. And this dates back to Isiah, Grunwald. It’s just dumb move after dumb move for years. We finally made it close with Leon at the helm, and for some reason, he flipped the script and blew the war chest on Mikal.

[Jalen Bluntson]

At least the toxicity is back. This is the Knick experience I'm familiar with

It sucks, we were so so close last year. We lost ihart and decided to panic. We could have kept the nova 4, and figured out something for a rebounding big. Whenever we are close, (and this is not just relegated to Leon Rose) we decide to blow it up and go after big names. And this dates back to Isiah, Grunwald. It’s just dumb move after dumb move for years. We finally made it close with Leon at the helm, and for some reason, he flipped the script and blew the war chest on Mikal.

Losing Shart and Mitch changed everything. We made good trades to improve the team. It just doesn't fit the HC without Shart/Mitch at the 5.

Thibs defense is what his team revolves around. Without that, he can't win in this league. His offense is non existent and easily shut down as we have seen repeatedly. Mitch healthy and the new players in the starting 5 would probably look a lot like the team we almost had last season. Except we would have a better defender at the 2 and MUCH BETTER PF.

Go get Kessler!

[Jalen Bluntson]

Losing the cup qualifier was bad enough but, a win puts us at the three seed! Thibs is a loser!

[The KnicksFix]

At least the toxicity is back. This is the Knick experience I'm familiar with

It sucks, we were so so close last year. We lost ihart and decided to panic. We could have kept the nova 4, and figured out something for a rebounding big. Whenever we are close, (and this is not just relegated to Leon Rose) we decide to blow it up and go after big names. And this dates back to Isiah, Grunwald. It’s just dumb move after dumb move for years. We finally made it close with Leon at the helm, and for some reason, he flipped the script and blew the war chest on Mikal.

Losing Shart and Mitch changed everything. We made good trades to improve the team. It just doesn't fit the HC without Shart/Mitch at the 5.

Thibs defense is what his team revolves around. Without that, he can't win in this league. His offense is non existent and easily shut down as we have seen repeatedly. Mitch healthy and the new players in the starting 5 would probably look a lot like the team we almost had last season. Except we would have a better defender at the 2 and MUCH BETTER PF.

Go get Kessler!

Exactly this bro, couldn’t have said it better myself
All of these points beautifully illustrate my frustration with the team. As you said bro, the defense of Thibs is predicated on a defensive big. The team we have now just does not work with what Thibs is known for. Though the starting lineup we have now is better than what we ever had, it’s up to Thibs to make it work. The problem is, he knows only one way to coach and does not put the team in the right position to win if he doesn’t get the right kind of players to work in his system.

I’m in the same boat as you man, Mitch back would help us a ton with a defensive presence inside, and with rebounding. The thing is, Mikal should not be guarding point of attack on defense. In order to make this work, we have to shift Mikal and hart to the bench, and start deuce with Mitch (when he’s back)

[The KnicksFix]

At least the toxicity is back. This is the Knick experience I'm familiar with

It sucks, we were so so close last year. We lost ihart and decided to panic. We could have kept the nova 4, and figured out something for a rebounding big. Whenever we are close, (and this is not just relegated to Leon Rose) we decide to blow it up and go after big names. And this dates back to Isiah, Grunwald. It’s just dumb move after dumb move for years. We finally made it close with Leon at the helm, and for some reason, he flipped the script and blew the war chest on Mikal.

Losing Shart and Mitch changed everything. We made good trades to improve the team. It just doesn't fit the HC without Shart/Mitch at the 5.

Thibs defense is what his team revolves around. Without that, he can't win in this league. His offense is non existent and easily shut down as we have seen repeatedly. Mitch healthy and the new players in the starting 5 would probably look a lot like the team we almost had last season. Except we would have a better defender at the 2 and MUCH BETTER PF.

Go get Kessler!

Speaking of which, do you think we even have the pieces to get Kessler? Of course it would require Mitch, but now I’m thinking it would require Deuce, and the protected Washington pick (which I doubt Utah would want because it wouldn’t convey) and the Detroit pick. I don’t know if any of this is enough though. We have a ton of seconds, but I feel like teams could offer firsts for him. What do you think man?

[Jalen Bluntson]

It sucks, we were so so close last year. We lost ihart and decided to panic. We could have kept the nova 4, and figured out something for a rebounding big. Whenever we are close, (and this is not just relegated to Leon Rose) we decide to blow it up and go after big names. And this dates back to Isiah, Grunwald. It’s just dumb move after dumb move for years. We finally made it close with Leon at the helm, and for some reason, he flipped the script and blew the war chest on Mikal.

Losing Shart and Mitch changed everything. We made good trades to improve the team. It just doesn't fit the HC without Shart/Mitch at the 5.

Thibs defense is what his team revolves around. Without that, he can't win in this league. His offense is non existent and easily shut down as we have seen repeatedly. Mitch healthy and the new players in the starting 5 would probably look a lot like the team we almost had last season. Except we would have a better defender at the 2 and MUCH BETTER PF.

Go get Kessler!

Exactly this bro, couldn’t have said it better myself
All of these points beautifully illustrate my frustration with the team. As you said bro, the defense of Thibs is predicated on a defensive big. The team we have now just does not work with what Thibs is known for. Though the starting lineup we have now is better than what we ever had, it’s up to Thibs to make it work. The problem is, he knows only one way to coach and does not put the team in the right position to win if he doesn’t get the right kind of players to work in his system.

I’m in the same boat as you man, Mitch back would help us a ton with a defensive presence inside, and with rebounding. The thing is, Mikal should not be guarding point of attack on defense. In order to make this work, we have to shift Mikal and hart to the bench, and start deuce with Mitch (when he’s back)

Mikal/Hart/OG should be switching and nullifying the POA. EVERYONE should be. KAT should be up on the screens and not in drop coverage as well. This would change everything. Live and die with a mismatch on Brunson or whoever and hope to recover to the paint to stop any drives. Giving up wide open threes and having guys beat themselves to death 40 minutes a night fighting through screens is dumb. Thibs is dumb. I don't care what anyone says, he's a problem. I would not care if he was fired but, since he won't be this season, figure it out stupid! You have one of the most talented and balanced rosters we have had in decades and we are 15-10. Losing games because he can't make simple adjustments.

[Jalen Bluntson]

It sucks, we were so so close last year. We lost ihart and decided to panic. We could have kept the nova 4, and figured out something for a rebounding big. Whenever we are close, (and this is not just relegated to Leon Rose) we decide to blow it up and go after big names. And this dates back to Isiah, Grunwald. It’s just dumb move after dumb move for years. We finally made it close with Leon at the helm, and for some reason, he flipped the script and blew the war chest on Mikal.

Losing Shart and Mitch changed everything. We made good trades to improve the team. It just doesn't fit the HC without Shart/Mitch at the 5.

Thibs defense is what his team revolves around. Without that, he can't win in this league. His offense is non existent and easily shut down as we have seen repeatedly. Mitch healthy and the new players in the starting 5 would probably look a lot like the team we almost had last season. Except we would have a better defender at the 2 and MUCH BETTER PF.

Go get Kessler!

Speaking of which, do you think we even have the pieces to get Kessler? Of course it would require Mitch, but now I’m thinking it would require Deuce, and the protected Washington pick (which I doubt Utah would want because it wouldn’t convey) and the Detroit pick. I don’t know if any of this is enough though. We have a ton of seconds, but I feel like teams could offer firsts for him. What do you think man?

I honestly don't think Ainge will give him up to us. Kessler only makes 3mil. Any 2 of our rookies and the WAS pick is not gonna be enough but it works out mathematically. Adding Mitch/Deuce means we take back Sexton maybe? Ok. I can live with that but, again, Ainge is not gonna want that.

We have 3 rookies/Mitch/Precious/Sims and the WAS pick plus second round picks. Whatever trade we make will be out of that lot. I don't see them adding Deuce but, him and Payne are also expendable in the right deal.

We know what we need. Unless we make a trade it will be 4-6 weeks before we see Mitch back. That's what we are up against. Nothing will change with Thibs and we will probably still be closer to .500 the way he coaches than we should be. Probably lose another guy to injury by then as well.