What happens to draft picks traded if team is over 2nd apron?

[Sixers in 4]

The question I have because it came up with the Suns trading for Butler (not a possibility now knowing the new rules). Their picks have already been moved. Does the team that acquired them receive a first-round pick at the end of the draft and suffer the repeater penalty of the second apron?

[Stone]

Good question and I honestly do not know the answer. When I this post on page two I figured I would bump it to see if someone can help.

[brackdan70]

I believe even after the pick is traded the original teams standing affects the pick. So yes if it is pushed back because the team is over the 2nd apron for a period of time then that’s where it is….im about 90% sure .

[shrink]

I’m not sure either, but I seem to remember Keith Smith discussing this last year on the Front Office Show. I believe he said that the pick maintains its normal place, so the penalty only falls on the high-spending team, and not the recipient of a trade with them.

You might want to post this on our CBA board to make sure.

[xdrta+]

The question I have because it came up with the Suns trading for Butler (not a possibility now knowing the new rules). Their picks have already been moved. Does the team that acquired them receive a first-round pick at the end of the draft and suffer the repeater penalty of the second apron?

The rule is, if a team is a 2nd Apron team, it can't trade its pick 7 years out. If it's not a 2nd Apron team it can trade the pick and if the team becomes a 2nd apron team the next year, it doesn't affect the previous year's 7 year out pick that it traded. It just wouldn't be able to trade that next one.

Edit: This rule only went into effect this year (24-25 season) so no team is subject to the draft pick penalty yet. The draft pick penalty applies to the four years after a team is in the 2nd Apron. If they're in the 2nd Apron 2 of the 4 years, then their pick (which they still have because they couldn't have traded it) drops to the bottom of the draft.

[Sixers in 4]

The question I have because it came up with the Suns trading for Butler (not a possibility now knowing the new rules). Their picks have already been moved. Does the team that acquired them receive a first-round pick at the end of the draft and suffer the repeater penalty of the second apron?

The rule is, if a team is a 2nd Apron team, it can't trade its pick 7 years out. If it's not a 2nd Apron team it can trade the pick and if the team becomes a 2nd apron team the next year, it doesn't affect the previous year's 7 year out pick that it traded. It just wouldn't be able to trade that next one.

Edit: This rule only went into effect this year (24-25 season) so no team is subject to the draft pick penalty yet. The draft pick penalty applies to the four years after a team is in the 2nd Apron. If they're in the 2nd Apron 2 of the 4 years, then their pick (which they still have because they couldn't have traded it) drops to the bottom of the draft.

That wasn't very helpful. We already know this. I am asking as an example the Suns who are in the apron this year but don't own their picks.

My first instinct is the NBA made no allowance at all which would mean the team holding that pick in that year is essentially screwed but hope they did. It's also my understanding that the penalty continues to be enforced and doesn't get reset until the team gets out of the 2nd apron. For example if the team is in the 2nd apron for 24 and 25 they would be moved down to the bottom of the 1st in 25 and that penalty would continue to be enforced as long as they remained in the 2nd apron.

Regardless of how it's enforced it incentives teams who plan on entering the apron to dump their picks. It's also another reason for knicks fans to not be overly critical of the Bridges trade if the organization plans on entering the apron next year and staying there for a fair bit.

[xdrta+]

The question I have because it came up with the Suns trading for Butler (not a possibility now knowing the new rules). Their picks have already been moved. Does the team that acquired them receive a first-round pick at the end of the draft and suffer the repeater penalty of the second apron?

The rule is, if a team is a 2nd Apron team, it can't trade its pick 7 years out. If it's not a 2nd Apron team it can trade the pick and if the team becomes a 2nd apron team the next year, it doesn't affect the previous year's 7 year out pick that it traded. It just wouldn't be able to trade that next one.

Edit: This rule only went into effect this year (24-25 season) so no team is subject to the draft pick penalty yet. The draft pick penalty applies to the four years after a team is in the 2nd Apron. If they're in the 2nd Apron 2 of the 4 years, then their pick (which they still have because they couldn't have traded it) drops to the bottom of the draft.

That wasn't very helpful. We already know this. I am asking as an example the Suns who are in the apron this year but don't own their picks.

My first instinct is the NBA made no allowance at all which would mean the team holding that pick in that year is essentially screwed but hope they did. It's also my understanding that the penalty continues to be enforced and doesn't get reset until the team gets out of the 2nd apron. For example if the team is in the 2nd apron for 24 and 25 they would be moved down to the bottom of the 1st in 25 and that penalty would continue to be enforced as long as they remained in the 2nd apron.

Regardless of how it's enforced it incentives teams who plan on entering the apron to dump their picks. It's also another reason for knicks fans to not be overly critical of the Bridges trade if the organization plans on entering the apron next year and staying there for a fair bit.

I don't understand the problem. If you're talking about a pick the Suns traded, then they obviously weren't in the 2nd Apron when they traded it. So none of this applies. If they were allowed to trade the pick, the team holding that pick isn't involved. Actually, there's nothing to be involved in.

And 24 and 25? I really don't know what you mean here. If they're in the 2nd Apron for the 24-25 season, they can't trade their 2032 first round pick. If they're in the 2nd Apron two of the following 4 years it drops to the bottom of the 32 draft. They will be holding it.

[MrGoat]

Good question. The best I could find:

"If a team is in the second apron for three out of five years, even if they've already traded their future picks, they will still face significant penalties, most notably having their first-round draft pick automatically moved to the back of the round (the 30th pick) seven years from the first year they went over the second apron; essentially, they lose the ability to trade that future pick for valuable assets due to the restrictions imposed by being in the second apron repeatedly."

It sounds like they delay the penalty in this case if I'm reading that right. I take that as an implication that this may not affect the teams who traded for those picks and the penalty will not be applied to the non 2nd apron offending teams who own those picks. I'd like clearer language on that but that would make sense because it would be one hell of a loophole to avoid the 3 out of 5 year penalty just by trading all of your picks beforehand

[xdrta+]

If you want to know what the CBA says, just look at the CBA. It's clear enough.

CBA

pp. 196
(2) Beginning with the 2024-25 Salary Cap Year, if a Team is a Second Apron Team for a Salary Cap Year, then:

(i) the Team shall be prohibited from trading (either conditionally or unconditionally) its first round draft pick in the first NBA Draft that occurs following the seventh Season that follows the Season occurring within such Salary Cap Year; and

(ii) with respect to the four (4) Salary Cap Years immediately following such Salary Cap Year:

(A) If the Team is a Second Apron Team for two (2) or more of such four (4) Salary Cap Years, then such first round draft pick shall be subject to a Draft Pick Penalty; and

(B) If the Team is a Second Apron Team for fewer than two (2) of such four (4) Salary Cap Years, then... such first round draft pick shall not be subject to a Draft Pick Penalty.

Example: If Team A is a Second Apron Team for the 2024-25 Salary Cap Year, then it would be prohibited from trading its 2032 first round draft pick... If Team A is also a Second Apron Team for the 2025-26 and 2028-29 Salary Cap Years, then Team A’s 2032 first round draft pick would be subject to a Draft Pick Penalty.

Example: If Team B is a Second Apron Team for the 2024-25 Salary Cap Year, then it would be prohibited from trading its 2032 first round draft pick. If Team B is not a Second Apron Team in the 2025-26, 2026-27, and 2027-28 Salary Cap Years, then Team B would be permitted to trade its 2032 first round draft pick as of the day following the last day of the 2027-28 Regular Season (and such first round draft pick would not be subject to a Draft Pick Penalty).

[Sixers in 4]

The rule is, if a team is a 2nd Apron team, it can't trade its pick 7 years out. If it's not a 2nd Apron team it can trade the pick and if the team becomes a 2nd apron team the next year, it doesn't affect the previous year's 7 year out pick that it traded. It just wouldn't be able to trade that next one.

Edit: This rule only went into effect this year (24-25 season) so no team is subject to the draft pick penalty yet. The draft pick penalty applies to the four years after a team is in the 2nd Apron. If they're in the 2nd Apron 2 of the 4 years, then their pick (which they still have because they couldn't have traded it) drops to the bottom of the draft.

That wasn't very helpful. We already know this. I am asking as an example the Suns who are in the apron this year but don't own their picks.

My first instinct is the NBA made no allowance at all which would mean the team holding that pick in that year is essentially screwed but hope they did. It's also my understanding that the penalty continues to be enforced and doesn't get reset until the team gets out of the 2nd apron. For example if the team is in the 2nd apron for 24 and 25 they would be moved down to the bottom of the 1st in 25 and that penalty would continue to be enforced as long as they remained in the 2nd apron.

Regardless of how it's enforced it incentives teams who plan on entering the apron to dump their picks. It's also another reason for knicks fans to not be overly critical of the Bridges trade if the organization plans on entering the apron next year and staying there for a fair bit.

I don't understand the problem. If you're talking about a pick the Suns traded, then they obviously weren't in the 2nd Apron when they traded it. So none of this applies. If they were allowed to trade the pick, the team holding that pick isn't involved. Actually, there's nothing to be involved in.

And 24 and 25? I really don't know what you mean here. If they're in the 2nd Apron at the end of the 24-25 season, they can't trade their 2032 first round pick. If they're in the 2nd Apron two of the following 4 years it drops to the bottom of the 32 draft. They will be holding it.

Link? I haven't seen it articulated that way all the documentation makes zero mention of what happens if the pick is not traded. CBA don't operate by what is obvious they operate what is spelled explicitly out in the text I haven't come across anything that says what happens if the pick has already been traded.

If no such text exists then the team would receive 30th overall pick. The seven years has nothing to do with what I am asking.

I wish instead of getting chatgpt I got the actual link to the text passage in the CBA so I could read all of it here is what google AI says:

Google: 2nd apron rules nba

Yes, if an NBA team is above the second apron for at least two of the four years after their first-round pick is frozen, the pick is automatically moved to the 30th overall pick:

Explanation
1. After a season above the second apron, the team's first-round pick seven years in the future is frozen and can't be traded.

2. If the team finishes above the second apron in more than one of the next four seasons, the pick drops to the 30th overall pick.

3. The only way to unfreeze the pick is to stay below the second apron for at least three of the next four years.

The second apron is a salary cap that teams can't go above without incurring certain consequences:

Teams above the second apron can't use the MLE to sign free agents.
Teams above the second apron are hard-capped at the second apron if they use the MLE.

The 2024-25 season's second apron level is $188.931 million. Some teams that are projected to be in the second apron for 2024-25 include the Phoenix Suns, Minnesota Timberwolves, Boston Celtics, and Milwaukee Bucks

What is weird is other people are claiming:

If a team remains in the second apron three out of five seasons, their first-round pick will automatically move to the end of the round

Which is totally different than the Google Ai answer (two out four which is basically a repeater penalty three out five makes it much easier to exit). So the answer is the hell if I know I do know though that if there is no exception than whatever the rule is applies.

[MrGoat]

If you want to know what the CBA says, just look at the CBA. It's clear enough.

CBA

pp. 196
(2) Beginning with the 2024-25 Salary Cap Year, if a Team is a Second Apron Team for a Salary Cap Year, then:

(i) the Team shall be prohibited from trading (either conditionally or unconditionally) its first round draft pick in the first NBA Draft that occurs following the seventh Season that follows the Season occurring within such Salary Cap Year; and

(ii) with respect to the four (4) Salary Cap Years immediately following such Salary Cap Year:

(A) If the Team is a Second Apron Team for two (2) or more of such four (4) Salary Cap Years, then such first round draft pick shall be subject to a Draft Pick Penalty; and

(B) If the Team is a Second Apron Team for fewer than two (2) of such four (4) Salary Cap Years, then... such first round draft pick shall not be subject to a Draft Pick Penalty.

Example: If Team A is a Second Apron Team for the 2024-25 Salary Cap Year, then it would be prohibited from trading its 2032 first round draft pick... If Team A is also a Second Apron Team for the 2025-26 and 2028-29 Salary Cap Years, then Team A’s 2032 first round draft pick would be subject to a Draft Pick Penalty.

Example: If Team B is a Second Apron Team for the 2024-25 Salary Cap Year, then it would be prohibited from trading its 2032 first round draft pick. If Team B is not a Second Apron Team in the 2025-26, 2026-27, and 2027-28 Salary Cap Years, then Team B would be permitted to trade its 2032 first round draft pick as of the day following the last day of the 2027-28 Regular Season (and such first round draft pick would not be subject to a Draft Pick Penalty).

I think he's talking about the repeater penalty where if a team is in the second apron for 3 out of 5 years then their pick automatically gets moved to the bottom of the first round. The Suns were in the second apron in 23 and 24 already and are looking at being in it again right now. The Sun's have traded their trade eligible picks already, though. So the question is whether the non 2nd apron teams that own those picks will have those picks subject to that penalty. In my last post I think the answer is no, the Suns' 2032 pick will be dropped to the end of the 1st round and frozen automatically by my understanding

[xdrta+]

I think he's talking about the penalty where if a team is in the second apron for 3 out of 5 years then their pick automatically gets moved to the bottom of the first round. The Suns were in the second apron in 23 and 24 already and are looking at being in it again right now.

None of that matters because this rule didn't go into effect until the 24-25 season. That's why no team is in draft pick penalty jeopardy yet. Second apron teams will have their 2032 draft pick frozen after this season. What happens in the next 4 seasons will determine if their pick is dropped to 30th or not.

[MrGoat]

I think he's talking about the penalty where if a team is in the second apron for 3 out of 5 years then their pick automatically gets moved to the bottom of the first round. The Suns were in the second apron in 23 and 24 already and are looking at being in it again right now.

None of that matters because this rule didn't go into effect until the 24-25 season. That's why no team is in draft pick penalty jeopardy yet. Second apron teams will have their 2032 draft pick frozen after this season. What happens in the next 4 seasons will determine if their pick is dropped to 30th or not.

Well I guess that opens another can of worms. Do the 2023 and 2024 second apron seasons get grandfathered out or not? I they are, then you're right. I was answering the hypothetical as to what would happen if a team had traded their picks with these rules and were looking at the 3 out of 5 second apron repeater penalty too. And I think that answer is the penalty gets delayed 7 years out to the frozen pick and doesn't affect the picks traded to other teams

[JayMKE]

2nd apron needs to go

[JayMKE]

2nd apron needs to go

[xdrta+]

I think he's talking about the penalty where if a team is in the second apron for 3 out of 5 years then their pick automatically gets moved to the bottom of the first round. The Suns were in the second apron in 23 and 24 already and are looking at being in it again right now.

None of that matters because this rule didn't go into effect until the 24-25 season. That's why no team is in draft pick penalty jeopardy yet. Second apron teams will have their 2032 draft pick frozen after this season. What happens in the next 4 seasons will determine if their pick is dropped to 30th or not.

Well I guess that opens another can of worms. Do the 2023 and 2024 second apron seasons get grandfathered out or not? I they are, then you're right. I was answering the hypothetical as to what would happen if a team had traded their picks with these rules and were looking at the 3 out of 5 second apron repeater penalty too. And I think that answer is the penalty gets delayed 7 years out to the frozen pick and doesn't affect the picks traded to other teams

Yeah, the rule wasn't in effect, so no, it's not a problem. The clock begins this year. Obviously, other teams are never involved because you can't trade the pick.

Edit: 2nd Apron rules were introduced gradually. Some took effect right away, some were delayed. This one was delayed, most likely to avoid this very situation.

[xdrta+]

2nd apron needs to go

Why?

[Ryoga Hibiki]

When you enter a new league year over the 2nd Apron, the extra pick 7 yeara from now that you should have been able to trade gets frozen.
So you can't have already traded it.

[MrGoat]

None of that matters because this rule didn't go into effect until the 24-25 season. That's why no team is in draft pick penalty jeopardy yet. Second apron teams will have their 2032 draft pick frozen after this season. What happens in the next 4 seasons will determine if their pick is dropped to 30th or not.

Well I guess that opens another can of worms. Do the 2023 and 2024 second apron seasons get grandfathered out or not? I they are, then you're right. I was answering the hypothetical as to what would happen if a team had traded their picks with these rules and were looking at the 3 out of 5 second apron repeater penalty too. And I think that answer is the penalty gets delayed 7 years out to the frozen pick and doesn't affect the picks traded to other teams

Yeah, the rule wasn't in effect, so no, it's not a problem. The clock begins this year. Obviously, other teams are never involved because you can't trade the pick.

Edit: 2nd Apron rules were introduced gradually. Some took effect right away, some were delayed. This one was delayed, most likely to avoid this very situation.

One note. There was a mistake on my hypothetical about if this applied to the Suns, the repeater penalty applies to the pick 7 years out from the first year of the 3 out of 5 they were in the second apron. So it would actually be the 2030 pick affected, which is owned by either Washington or Memphis

But the apron rules were introduced after the 2023 deadline so that situation was never actually possible because of the 7 year freeze rule. So yeah, if Phoenix last two apron years are grandfathered out of that recent change there's no issue

[JayMKE]

2nd apron needs to go

Why?

Too harsh & the primary function has been kneecapping small market teams, it also kills NBA middle class and player movement. Has not in any way made the game better and it has deprived us of some pretty good teams, solved a problem that didn't need solving and now the 2nd apron is much more of a wart on the game than anything from before.