What happens to draft picks traded if team is over 2nd apron?

[Ryoga Hibiki]

2nd apron needs to go

Why?

Too harsh & the primary function has been kneecapping small market teams, it also kills NBA middle class and player movement. Has not in any way made the game better and it has deprived us of some pretty good teams, solved a problem that didn't need solving and now the 2nd apron is much more of a wart on the game than anything from before.

quite the opposite, it's helping small market teams.
now rich teams are forced to control their spending

[JayMKE]

Why?

Too harsh & the primary function has been kneecapping small market teams, it also kills NBA middle class and player movement. Has not in any way made the game better and it has deprived us of some pretty good teams, solved a problem that didn't need solving and now the 2nd apron is much more of a wart on the game than anything from before.

quite the opposite, it's helping small market teams.
now rich teams are forced to control their spending

Rich teams like Milwaukee and Denver apparently. Its not helping small market teams whatsoever.

Nut up and institute a hard cap if you want that, this **** about draft picks and not being to make trades is not fair and hurts the product overall. Teams with less leeway(meaning small market teams) are going to be pressured into going over 2nd apron in order to retain their star players

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Too harsh & the primary function has been kneecapping small market teams, it also kills NBA middle class and player movement. Has not in any way made the game better and it has deprived us of some pretty good teams, solved a problem that didn't need solving and now the 2nd apron is much more of a wart on the game than anything from before.

quite the opposite, it's helping small market teams.
now rich teams are forced to control their spending

Rich teams like Milwaukee and Denver apparently. Its not helping small market teams whatsoever.

Nut up and institute a hard cap if you want that, this **** about draft picks and not being to make trades is not fair and hurts the product overall. Teams with less leeway(meaning small market teams) are going to be pressured into going over 2nd apron in order to retain their star players

how is the hard cup more "fair" than the picks and trade rules?
it just removes optionality

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I think there's some confusion about how the frozen pick process works.
It happens whenyou *finish* a league year (=end of June) over the 2nd Apron.
If you are below the threshold, you are allowed to trade a pick for a draft happening 7 years later (every years a new pick is available for trade).
If you are above, that pick is frozen and you can't trade it. ayiu can unfreeze it, and trade it, only staying in at least 3 out of the next 4 seasons below the 2nd apron (so, you can achieve it 2 years later, at best). If you fail it's permanently frozen and sent at the end of the first round.

If you follow this logic, only new picks get frozen, so they can't have been traded before.

[tbhawksfan1]

I think there's some confusion about how the frozen pick process works.
It happens whenyou *finish* a league year (=end of June) over the 2nd Apron.
If you are below the threshold, you are allowed to trafe a pick for a draft happening 7 years later.
If you are above, that pick is frozen and you can't trade it. ayiu can unfreeze it, and trade it, only staying in at least 3 out of the next 4 seasons below the 2nd apron (so, you can achieve it 2 years later, at best). If you fail it's permanently frozen and sent at the end of the first round.

If you follow this logic, only new picks get frozen, so they can't have been traded before.

That's how I see it but I think it's going to be very messy trying to account for this year after year. There are currently four teams over 2nd apron for this season. I suppose that if they remain over, their pick seven years later becomes frozen and will only unfreeze if they don't remain over during 2 of the next 4 seasons. If they are over for 2 more of the next 4 seasons then the pick is permanantly frozen. I hope my math is right because this is already confusing enough.

When you want to propose future trades, you will have to check for frozen picks. It's going to be very messy

So many lawyers creating the rules, this is what you end up with

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I think there's some confusion about how the frozen pick process works.
It happens whenyou *finish* a league year (=end of June) over the 2nd Apron.
If you are below the threshold, you are allowed to trafe a pick for a draft happening 7 years later.
If you are above, that pick is frozen and you can't trade it. ayiu can unfreeze it, and trade it, only staying in at least 3 out of the next 4 seasons below the 2nd apron (so, you can achieve it 2 years later, at best). If you fail it's permanently frozen and sent at the end of the first round.

If you follow this logic, only new picks get frozen, so they can't have been traded before.

That's how I see it but I think it's going to be very messy trying to account for this year after year. There are currently four teams over 2nd apron for this season. I suppose that if they remain over, their pick seven years later becomes frozen and will only unfreeze if they don't remain over during 2 of the next 4 seasons. If they are over for 2 more of the next 4 seasons then the pick is permanantly frozen. I hope my math is right because this is already confusing enough.

When you want to propose future trades, you will have to check for frozen picks. It's going to be very messy

So many lawyers creating the rules, this is what you end up with

I don't think it's any more complicated, just like now you have to account for the picks that have been already traded and for the Stepien rules.
What I think it's very important for the fans to understand is that:
* going over the 2nd Apron is not just about money, there are very significant team building penalties associated to that
* you can go over for a couple of seasons, but I can't see teams willing just forfeit (=sent to the end) potential high draft picks down the road. This can be a killer in smaller markets
* you can't just stumble over the 2nd Apron, when you're there you *must* have a plan to get below it again in 2 years. i don't think that even the "CAP experts" in the media have really internalized this. Otherwise you couldn't explain the outrage for the Nuggets not resigning KCP, looking at their other contracts/extensions coming

[Sixers in 4]

If you want to know what the CBA says, just look at the CBA. It's clear enough.

CBA

pp. 196
(2) Beginning with the 2024-25 Salary Cap Year, if a Team is a Second Apron Team for a Salary Cap Year, then:

(i) the Team shall be prohibited from trading (either conditionally or unconditionally) its first round draft pick in the first NBA Draft that occurs following the seventh Season that follows the Season occurring within such Salary Cap Year; and

(ii) with respect to the four (4) Salary Cap Years immediately following such Salary Cap Year:

(A) If the Team is a Second Apron Team for two (2) or more of such four (4) Salary Cap Years, then such first round draft pick shall be subject to a Draft Pick Penalty; and

(B) If the Team is a Second Apron Team for fewer than two (2) of such four (4) Salary Cap Years, then... such first round draft pick shall not be subject to a Draft Pick Penalty.

Example: If Team A is a Second Apron Team for the 2024-25 Salary Cap Year, then it would be prohibited from trading its 2032 first round draft pick... If Team A is also a Second Apron Team for the 2025-26 and 2028-29 Salary Cap Years, then Team A’s 2032 first round draft pick would be subject to a Draft Pick Penalty.

Example: If Team B is a Second Apron Team for the 2024-25 Salary Cap Year, then it would be prohibited from trading its 2032 first round draft pick. If Team B is not a Second Apron Team in the 2025-26, 2026-27, and 2027-28 Salary Cap Years, then Team B would be permitted to trade its 2032 first round draft pick as of the day following the last day of the 2027-28 Regular Season (and such first round draft pick would not be subject to a Draft Pick Penalty).

I think he's talking about the repeater penalty where if a team is in the second apron for 3 out of 5 years then their pick automatically gets moved to the bottom of the first round. The Suns were in the second apron in 23 and 24 already and are looking at being in it again right now. The Sun's have traded their trade eligible picks already, though. So the question is whether the non 2nd apron teams that own those picks will have those picks subject to that penalty. In my last post I think the answer is no, the Suns' 2032 pick will be dropped to the end of the 1st round and frozen automatically by my understanding

I must have missed this in his post earlier; I apologize; the bolded is exactly what I was looking for. This implies that there is no exception if the team has already traded the pick prior to entering the apron. When I searched for the CBA on Google, I only found articles discussing it and chat CPT, not the actual CBA.

The question is essentially answered if there is not any more information about the repeater elsewhere in the CBA. The and, indicates that it is not conditional. Reading the text, it doesn't start in 2032; it starts literally immediately after back-to-back violations. The 7 years is a separate condition.

That would mean that the Suns, if they run another 2nd apron team back to back, would immediately have their 25-26 pick docked. At least that is how I read it.

[Fencer reregistered]

I'm certain that no pick can get pinned to the end of the round AFTER it's traded.

I think that the mechanical reason for this is the obvious candidate: The only picks that get can pinned to the end of the round are the ones that are frozen from trading anyway.

[Sixers in 4]

I'm certain that no pick can get pinned to the end of the round AFTER it's traded.

I think that the mechanical reason for this is the obvious candidate: The only picks that get can pinned to the end of the round are the ones that are frozen from trading anyway.

That is not how it is written though it will interesting to see how it enforced if the Suns remain a repeater after this year.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

That would mean that the Suns, if they run another 2nd apron team back to back, would immediately have their 25-26 pick docked. At least that is how I read it.

No, that's not how it works.
If they are over the 2nd Apron end of June the Suns '32 pick will be temporarily frozen.
If they are below the limit in 3 seasons out of 26, 27, 28 and 29 it will be unfrozen and it will be tradable. If they are not it will be permanently frozen and sent to the end of the first round (not necessarily to 30).
Them being over the limit in 25 affects only that pick.

[dremill24]

I'm certain that no pick can get pinned to the end of the round AFTER it's traded.

I think that the mechanical reason for this is the obvious candidate: The only picks that get can pinned to the end of the round are the ones that are frozen from trading anyway.

That is not how it is written though it will interesting to see how it enforced if the Suns remain a repeater after this year.

Read the examples that were quoted by xtdra+ on page 1, they're straight out of the CBA and explain it very well.

Draft pick restrictions dont kick in until the end of this year and apply to 2032 picks at the earliest. They freeze it so that you cant trade it, avoiding the issues this thread is worried about.

The 3 of 5 and 2 of 4 things are written a little funny but they're actually the same thing. Over 2nd apron once in 2025: pick 7 years out (2032) is frozen (cant be traded). Then if they continue to be in the 2nd apron 2 of the next 4 years (which is 3 out of 5 total when including the initial year that triggered the freeze), then that 2032 pick, which was not allowed to be traded, moves to the end of the 1st round. Or if they get under the 2nd apron the '32 pick could become unfrozen and able to be traded by the summer of '28 at the earliest.

[JayMKE]

quite the opposite, it's helping small market teams.
now rich teams are forced to control their spending

Rich teams like Milwaukee and Denver apparently. Its not helping small market teams whatsoever.

Nut up and institute a hard cap if you want that, this **** about draft picks and not being to make trades is not fair and hurts the product overall. Teams with less leeway(meaning small market teams) are going to be pressured into going over 2nd apron in order to retain their star players

how is the hard cup more "fair" than the picks and trade rules?
it just removes optionality

2nd apron unnecessary punitive and still favors big markets as it’s the small market teams with stars who will be forced into the 2nd apron in order to compete. NBA shouldn’t be trying legislate Giannis and Jokic off their respective teams, where do you think Silver prefers they play?

[Fencer reregistered]

Rich teams like Milwaukee and Denver apparently. Its not helping small market teams whatsoever.

Nut up and institute a hard cap if you want that, this **** about draft picks and not being to make trades is not fair and hurts the product overall. Teams with less leeway(meaning small market teams) are going to be pressured into going over 2nd apron in order to retain their star players

how is the hard cup more "fair" than the picks and trade rules?
it just removes optionality

2nd apron unnecessary punitive and still favors big markets as it’s the small market teams with stars who will be forced into the 2nd apron in order to compete. NBA shouldn’t be trying legislate Giannis and Jokic off their respective teams, where do you think Silver prefers they play?

Even a hard cap wouldn't make things totally equal. A Knicks player can surely make more money on local endorsements than a Bucks player can.

On the flip side, there are state income taxes and local cost of living ...

[JayMKE]

how is the hard cup more "fair" than the picks and trade rules?
it just removes optionality

2nd apron unnecessary punitive and still favors big markets as it’s the small market teams with stars who will be forced into the 2nd apron in order to compete. NBA shouldn’t be trying legislate Giannis and Jokic off their respective teams, where do you think Silver prefers they play?

Even a hard cap wouldn't make things totally equal. A Knicks player can surely make more money on local endorsements than a Bucks player can.

On the flip side, there are state income taxes and local cost of living ...

Hard cap isn’t as punitive as 2nd apron imo. I’d take the old system or no cap at all over current CBA. Don’t think Giannis and Jokic staying on their respective teams is a problem, should be encouraged.

[Hellcrooner]

another stone for teams to try to retool, rebuild of basically do ANY f* move at all.

Jesus Christ.

This rules arre KILLING the league.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

another stone for teams to try to retool, rebuild of basically do ANY f* move at all.

Jesus Christ.

This rules arre KILLING the league.

quite the opposite, it forces teams of the top to be smart with their resources, not overpay players, and keep retooling.
at the same times the up and coming ones can grab the good players that the top teams can't afford anymore

[MrGoat]

I'm certain that no pick can get pinned to the end of the round AFTER it's traded.

I think that the mechanical reason for this is the obvious candidate: The only picks that get can pinned to the end of the round are the ones that are frozen from trading anyway.

That is not how it is written though it will interesting to see how it enforced if the Suns remain a repeater after this year.

See my earlier conversation with xdrta. The Suns will not be a repeater even if they finish the year in the 2nd apron because the repeater rule only starts to apply starting this season even though the Suns were in the 2nd apron the last two seasons, the Suns were only able to trade the 2030 pick because the repeater and freeze rules hadn't been instated yet. The repeater rule drops the pick 7 years out from the first of those 3 of 5 years in the apron to the bottom of the first round. All that will happen to the Suns if they finish the season in the 2nd apron is their 2032 pick will be frozen (and the rest of the 2nd apron stipulations.) If they spend two more seasons in the 2nd apron in the next 4 seasons then that frozen 2032 pick would drop to the end of the first round. We're not going to be seeing any picks dropped to the end of the first round until at least 2032

[Lockdown504090]

2nd apron needs to go

Fans like watching sustained runs and suceess. bulls, warriors lakers, celtics, even sustained cores that dont lead to championships are very popular and good for the league.... why should I as a fan have to watch my favourite players leave because the pelicans dont know how to run their team?? huh

[JayMKE]

2nd apron needs to go

Fans like watching sustained runs and suceess. bulls, warriors lakers, celtics, even sustained cores that dont lead to championships are very popular and good for the league.... why should I as a fan have to watch my favourite players leave because the pelicans dont know how to run their team?? huh

If you have a superstar and built a championship core you shouldn’t be forced into breaking up the team just for fairly paying players and trying to stay competitive. Make a hard cap if money is a problem, cutting contending teams out at the knees makes the NBA less entertaining and is a false parity. The quality of the product is nosediving for a lot of reasons and these misguided 2nd apron penalties play a part in it.

[jbk1234]

2nd apron needs to go

Why?

Too harsh & the primary function has been kneecapping small market teams, it also kills NBA middle class and player movement. Has not in any way made the game better and it has deprived us of some pretty good teams, solved a problem that didn't need solving and now the 2nd apron is much more of a wart on the game than anything from before.

I think you need to give a few years to properly evaluate it. The Suns leaped into second apron without care. The Clippers did not. Butler and Ingram haven't gotten the extensions they wanted. GS let Klay walk. Forward thinking front offices will be fine, but the days of guys like Beal, Wall, and Westbrook being offered really questionable deals might be coming to an end.