RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[bledredwine]

My quote was "I admittedly go back and forth" - not - "I admittedly go back and forth between Jordan and Lebron."

"What bases? He has 1 base covered.....he's got 1 more title. Lebron has him on points scored (by huge margin). Assists (miles ahead). Rebounds (miles ahead). Playoff points, rebound, assists. Tripple-doubles. Playoff tripple-doubles.

Jordan has him on steals, but Lebron has him on Blocks.

Again...there are things about Jordan you can't deny, and I prob do have him as my goat (I admittedly go back and forth) but "absolute slaughter" is laughable."

Your words not mine. clearly talking about Bron/Jordan

Peace out Bruh.

Lebron plays point forward in an open court era where Russell Westbrook averaged nearly a 30 point triple double over 3 entire seasons... of course he has more rebounds and assists. For their position (context!), Jordan leads in both of those categories and was a triple double machine the year he played point for part of the season. Lebron is a better exterior passer, but Jordan was a straight up better interior passer and at threading the needle.

Jordan leads points (easy, esp playoffs and finals), all important advanced stats like PER, VORP, even box plus minus, all regular season and playoffs,

freethrow percentage by a lot, midrange percentage of Lebron's is abysmal, steals blocks.

6 championships LBJ 4, 5 mvp's in way less years, 10 scoring title lbj 1, 9 time first defense LBJ 5, DPOY lbj 0..... all in in way less years.

So no, it's not close. It's laughable,

Jordan also didn't literally lose an entire championship for his team because he choked and played consistently great defense until his last days as a Bull, when he hit the championship winner. He also didn't get outplayed in the finals like LeBron has by dirk/wade/Terry/durant and allowing 4 of his finals matchups to win finals MVPs.

Jordan led a dynasty. Lebron bandwagon and had some of the historically worst finals slaughters against his own team of all time.


Not close.

[Jamaaliver]

I'd be interested to see the TS% and Win/Loss records of each of those 50 Point Games------

About a decade ago, I saw a crazy stat

50 point playoff games since 1984


Jordan - 8
everyone else combined - 13

[ScrantonBulls]

My quote was "I admittedly go back and forth" - not - "I admittedly go back and forth between Jordan and Lebron."

"What bases? He has 1 base covered.....he's got 1 more title. Lebron has him on points scored (by huge margin). Assists (miles ahead). Rebounds (miles ahead). Playoff points, rebound, assists. Tripple-doubles. Playoff tripple-doubles.

Jordan has him on steals, but Lebron has him on Blocks.

Again...there are things about Jordan you can't deny, and I prob do have him as my goat (I admittedly go back and forth) but "absolute slaughter" is laughable."

Your words not mine. clearly talking about Bron/Jordan

Peace out Bruh.

Lebron plays point forward in an open court era where Russell Westbrook averaged nearly a 30 point triple double over 3 entire seasons... of course he has more rebounds and assists. For their position (context!), Jordan leads in both of those categories and was a triple double machine the year he played point for part of the season. Lebron is a better exterior passer, but Jordan was a straight up better interior passer and at threading the needle.

Jordan leads points (easy, esp playoffs and finals), all important advanced stats like PER, VORP, even box plus minus, all regular season and playoffs,

freethrow percentage by a lot, midrange percentage of Lebron's is abysmal, steals blocks.

6 championships LBJ 4, 5 mvp's in way less years, 10 scoring title lbj 1, 9 time first defense LBJ 5, DPOY lbj 0..... all in in way less years.

So no, it's not close. It's laughable,

Jordan also didn't literally lose an entire championship for his team because he choked and played consistently great defense until his last days as a Bull, when he hit the championship winner. He also didn't get outplayed in the finals like LeBron has by dirk/wade/Terry/durant and allowing 4 of his finals matchups to win finals MVPs.

Jordan led a dynasty. Lebron bandwagon and had some of the historically worst finals slaughters against his own team of all time.


Not close.

Wrong on multiple accounts here, but being wrong is kind of your MO. Stick to the stats that you understand, son.

[SlimShady83]

Lebron plays point forward in an open court era where Russell Westbrook averaged nearly a 30 point triple double over 3 entire seasons... of course he has more rebounds and assists. For their position (context!), Jordan leads in both of those categories and was a triple double machine the year he played point for part of the season.

Jordan has a total of 28 Ish triple doubles entire career In that year YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, was 1989 he had 10 triple doubles starting as point guard, Is that a triple double machine ??? Not In my books

But In saying that, he did only play 24 games as point guard for the Bulls that year, I guess someone was injured and he had to fill the role or something???

So getting 10 triple doubles out of 24 games as starting point guard, Is pretty good and I guess you could say he is a 'triple double machine'.

Edit: that year Bulls finished season 47-35 record
Edit: also that year Magic led the league In triple doubles

[Rust_Cohle]

I'd be interested to see the TS% and Win/Loss records of each of those 50 Point Games------

About a decade ago, I saw a crazy stat

50 point playoff games since 1984


Jordan - 8
everyone else combined - 13

A solid 6-2 with very strong FG%’s in many of them.

GOAT gonna GOAT

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/michael-jordan-50-point-playoff-games-win-loss-record

[SlimShady83]

of course he has more rebounds and assists. For their position (context!), Jordan leads in both of those categories

Also just noticed this

Harden leads all SG's with assists, then you have Clyde, Kobe, Hornecek, Wade, Jordan

Rebounds by position SG Is; Kobe 6800, Clyde 6677, Jordan 5836

Can't beleive people say Kobe was a ball hog

[Rust_Cohle]

of course he has more rebounds and assists. For their position (context!), Jordan leads in both of those categories

Also just noticed this

Harden leads all SG's with assists, then you have Clyde, Kobe, Hornecek, Wade, Jordan

Rebounds by position SG Is; Kobe 6800, Clyde 6677, Jordan 5836

Can't beleive people say Kobe was a ball hog

Kobe also played 300 more games

[bledredwine]

Lebron plays point forward in an open court era where Russell Westbrook averaged nearly a 30 point triple double over 3 entire seasons... of course he has more rebounds and assists. For their position (context!), Jordan leads in both of those categories and was a triple double machine the year he played point for part of the season.

Jordan has a total of 28 Ish triple doubles entire career In that year YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, was 1989 he had 10 triple doubles starting as point guard, Is that a triple double machine ??? Not In my books

But In saying that, he did only play 24 games as point guard for the Bulls that year, I guess someone was injured and he had to fill the role or something???

So getting 10 triple doubles out of 24 games as starting point guard, Is pretty good and I guess you could say he is a 'triple double machine'.

Edit: that year Bulls finished season 47-35 record
Edit: also that year Magic led the league In triple doubles

You should learn about position and era. Jordan played point for part of one season and was getting plenty of triple doubles. In the 90s, the leader in triple doubles usually had like 4-6 for the entire season. It was much harder to achieve back then.

Once again Westbrook averaged a triple double across three seasons,

so your point is not a point… especially since lebron plays point and jordan doesn’t, it’s pointless.

[SlimShady83]

You should learn about position and era. Jordan played point for part of one season and was getting plenty of triple doubles. In the 90s, the leader in triple doubles usually had like 4-6 for the entire season. It was much harder to achieve back then.

Nice try bud have a good one.

[danfantastk32]

Wrong on multiple accounts here, but being wrong is kind of your MO. Stick to the stats that you understand, son.

Thank you...I read the post, and just didn't have the energy for the fight. You summed it up nicely.

[danfantastk32]

so your point is not a point… especially since lebron plays point and jordan doesn’t, it’s pointless.

But see, you so missed the point I made, that you just made my exact point in your rebuttal. Lebron has a ton more triple-doubles. MJ has a ton more 50-point games. Who cares? How's that a stat for GOAT? Is MJ the scoring GOAT? Hardly. Its he the title-goat? Hardly

So some fancy stat like 'most 50 point playoff games' is as meaningless as 'most playoff triple-doubles' or 'most playoff rebounds'. It comes down to your position.

MJ's probable strongest argument for GOAT (it's not titles, and it's not points) is his intangible "if you had to bet your life on one game, who would you pick on your team" <------- I would take Jordan every day. But what the hell stat is that?

It's why the GOAT argument is lame as f***. GOAT at what? Cause I think the only stats Jordan is number 1 at is PPG...and I guess the most 50-point games. And he was a shooting guard...so no sh++! By your own rebuttal, it's a product of his position, so it's pointless...which was kinda the point I was making all along. So thank you.

[danfantastk32]

I wonder why Duncan never gets love on these topics? Duncan was a beast.....and what he meant to that franchise/dynasty. Just look at what that team was before him, and then after. Shout-out to whoever started this topic, for at least putting him on the list.

[bledredwine]

so your point is not a point… especially since lebron plays point and jordan doesn’t, it’s pointless.

But see, you so missed the point I made, that you just made my exact point in your rebuttal. Lebron has a ton more triple-doubles. MJ has a ton more 50-point games. Who cares? How's that a stat for GOAT? Is MJ the scoring GOAT? Hardly. Its he the title-goat? Hardly

So some fancy stat like 'most 50 point playoff games' is as meaningless as 'most playoff triple-doubles' or 'most playoff rebounds'. It comes down to your position.

MJ's probable strongest argument for GOAT (it's not titles, and it's not points) is his intangible "if you had to bet your life on one game, who would you pick on your team" <------- I would take Jordan every day. But what the hell stat is that?

It's why the GOAT argument is lame as f***. GOAT at what? Cause I think the only stats Jordan is number 1 at is PPG...and I guess the most 50-point games. And he was a shooting guard...so no sh++! By your own rebuttal, it's a product of his position, so it's pointless...which was kinda the point I was making all along. So thank you.

Jordan is the scoring GOAT… by far. You should look up playoffs and finals stats.


Title GOAT? relative to era, teams in the league and especially support, you could definitely make that argument.

Did he dominate his era, unlike Lebron? Yep.

So, these are moot points. The comparison is just lopsided.

[danfantastk32]

Jordan is the scoring GOAT… by far. You should look up playoffs and finals stats.


Title GOAT? relative to era, teams in the league and especially support, you could definitely make that argument.

Did he dominate his era, unlike Lebron? Yep.

So, these are moot points. The comparison is just lopsided.

Ummm...do you just not do research, and say things? Lebron has like 20% more playoff points that MJ. I'm pretty sure I said that. Shall we look up playoff rebounds and assists? Lebron has like 30% more finals points. So I don't know what your even talking about. I guess your not interested in the truth....It's MJ and that's final. +puts fingers in ears+ LA LA LA LA LA LA LA

As for dominating an era......I'd say Bill Russell prob takes that.

Face it, the only "stat" that MJ actually wins (besides most 50-point playoff games, which you admitted is pointless since its a position-based stat) is the "if I had to bet my life on 1 game, it would be MJ" which isn't even a stat....but certainly an argument for why he's the best. So no...none of these 'stat arguments' are worth a damn....and are actually pretty lopsided the other way, since Lebron has much more time in the league (all part of being GOAT too)

[The High Cyde]

I wonder why Duncan never gets love on these topics? Duncan was a beast.....and what he meant to that franchise/dynasty. Just look at what that team was before him, and then after. Shout-out to whoever started this topic, for at least putting him on the list.

Yeah as I’ve gotten older I’m starting reflect more on Duncan and his sustained impact on the court and for his franchise. And it’s undeniable he is one of the top ten players of all time. The hitch, I think, is that he played in the time of another all time great, in Shaq, who is generally seen as a higher tier player, but we know there’s a tier above that as well, the GOAT tier, this is usually a table of three in James, Jordan, and Kareem. To add another ingredient to layer things is of course Kevin Garnett, who is either difficult to rank or they look at the rings argument and conclude that Duncan is therefore obviously the better player. Get granular with the data though, and it’s evident KG was every right a peer to Duncan, who pretty much always had the better team. Parker and Ginobli with Pop, the results speak for themselves here.

But still, Duncan was just too good, consistently, on both sides of the ball, and absolutely made the best of his career with what fell into his lap. He was a selfless player that went toe to toe with the Most Dominant Ever at their respective peaks more or less, he never was a diva to his franchise, his willingness to be coached and his determination to respect his coach set the tone to the franchise but it also completed the bar of best FO and how a franchise should be ran, down to coaching and staff. Duncan was the catalyst that put the Spurs on the map and started a dynasty lasting over two decades on top of all that, and that can’t be taken away from him, and that means to me he set some kind of bar, and that bar might be GOAT tier.

[DCasey91]

This may be all for nought if Jokic somehow wins it all this year.

Watched all playoffs Jordan and James twice over. Obviously both have high/lows as longer playoffs stint but what Jokic is doing now there is a chance the whole debate resets again.

I'm dead serious btw. Both of those had .500 support or better (Jordan has more seasons on this starting from 91)

Jokic a support hasn't come close to either.

Heck I have Duncan/Wade/Dirk/Keem/Jokic as subpar support (comparitvely) none went again except for Duncs. Though he got quality in the second half when TP/Manu played in their primes.

The Joker is coming

I wouldn't even take Nugs 2023 over 11 Mavs for that matter.

Btw for any Jordan/Bron fans or stans these are not the only 2 candidates. Popularity doesn't mean right at all. I remember 20 years ago Reem/Oscar were definety in GOAT talks online. Feels like it was the stone age now.

[Rust_Cohle]

I wonder why Duncan never gets love on these topics? Duncan was a beast.....and what he meant to that franchise/dynasty. Just look at what that team was before him, and then after. Shout-out to whoever started this topic, for at least putting him on the list.

Yeah as I’ve gotten older I’m starting reflect more on Duncan and his sustained impact on the court and for his franchise. And it’s undeniable he is one of the top ten players of all time. The hitch, I think, is that he played in the time of another all time great, in Shaq, who is generally seen as a higher tier player, but we know there’s a tier above that as well, the GOAT tier, this is usually a table of three in James, Jordan, and Kareem. To add another ingredient to layer things is of course Kevin Garnett, who is either difficult to rank or they look at the rings argument and conclude that Duncan is therefore obviously the better player. Get granular with the data though, and it’s evident KG was every right a peer to Duncan, who pretty much always had the better team. Parker and Ginobli with Pop, the results speak for themselves here.

But still, Duncan was just too good, consistently, on both sides of the ball, and absolutely made the best of his career with what fell into his lap. He was a selfless player that went toe to toe with the Most Dominant Ever at their respective peaks more or less, he never was a diva to his franchise, his willingness to be coached and his determination to respect his coach set the tone to the franchise but it also completed the bar of best FO and how a franchise should be ran, down to coaching and staff. Duncan was the catalyst that put the Spurs on the map and started a dynasty lasting over two decades on top of all that, and that can’t be taken away from him, and that means to me he set some kind of bar, and that bar might be GOAT tier.

Flip Garnett and Duncan and no way do spurs get 5 rings. Garnett doesn’t ring in 99 or 2003 especially

[Rust_Cohle]

This may be all for nought if Jokic somehow wins it all this year.

Watched all playoffs Jordan and James twice over. Obviously both have high/lows as longer playoffs stint but what Jokic is doing now there is a chance the whole debate resets again.

I'm dead serious btw. Both of those had .500 support or better (Jordan has more seasons on this starting from 91)

Jokic a support hasn't come close to either.

Heck I have Duncan/Wade/Dirk/Keem/Jokic as subpar support (comparitvely) none went again except for Duncs. Though he got quality in the second half when TP/Manu played in their primes.

The Joker is coming

I wouldn't even take Nugs 2023 over 11 Mavs for that matter.

Btw for any Jordan/Bron fans or stans these are not the only 2 candidates. Popularity doesn't mean right at all. I remember 20 years ago Reem/Oscar were definety in GOAT talks online. Feels like it was the stone age now.

I’d take peak Jokic over peak LeBron but Jokic needs more rings. Denver will struggle to get out of the second round no matter how incredible Jokic is. He’s the MVP this year but if he finishes his career with just 1-2 rings he’s going to have a tough time being argued as the GOAT.

[Rust_Cohle]

This may be all for nought if Jokic somehow wins it all this year.

Watched all playoffs Jordan and James twice over. Obviously both have high/lows as longer playoffs stint but what Jokic is doing now there is a chance the whole debate resets again.

I'm dead serious btw. Both of those had .500 support or better (Jordan has more seasons on this starting from 91)

Jokic a support hasn't come close to either.

Heck I have Duncan/Wade/Dirk/Keem/Jokic as subpar support (comparitvely) none went again except for Duncs. Though he got quality in the second half when TP/Manu played in their primes.

The Joker is coming

I wouldn't even take Nugs 2023 over 11 Mavs for that matter.

Btw for any Jordan/Bron fans or stans these are not the only 2 candidates. Popularity doesn't mean right at all. I remember 20 years ago Reem/Oscar were definety in GOAT talks online. Feels like it was the stone age now.

Who do you have as the goat?

[Rust_Cohle]

Jordan is the scoring GOAT… by far. You should look up playoffs and finals stats.


Title GOAT? relative to era, teams in the league and especially support, you could definitely make that argument.

Did he dominate his era, unlike Lebron? Yep.

So, these are moot points. The comparison is just lopsided.

Ummm...do you just not do research, and say things? Lebron has like 20% more playoff points that MJ. I'm pretty sure I said that. Shall we look up playoff rebounds and assists? Lebron has like 30% more finals points. So I don't know what your even talking about. I guess your not interested in the truth....It's MJ and that's final. +puts fingers in ears+ LA LA LA LA LA LA LA

As for dominating an era......I'd say Bill Russell prob takes that.

Face it, the only "stat" that MJ actually wins (besides most 50-point playoff games, which you admitted is pointless since its a position-based stat) is the "if I had to bet my life on 1 game, it would be MJ" which isn't even a stat....but certainly an argument for why he's the best. So no...none of these 'stat arguments' are worth a damn....and are actually pretty lopsided the other way, since Lebron has much more time in the league (all part of being GOAT too)

As a finals scorer, Jordan is well ahead of lebron if you look at PPG. Jordan isn’t getting just 8 points in a finals game:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/lebron-james-and-michael-jordan-finals-averages