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2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2

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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#81 » by SA37 » Sat Dec 14, 2024 11:26 am

contract wrote:
Spoiler:
SA37 wrote:
Contract wrote:No they are not. There are exactly three NBA players 36 years of age or older averaging even 12 points per game.

Durant 25.8 ppg
Lebron 23.0 ppg
Curry 22.8 ppg

That's it. That's the entire list of guys playing productively into their late 30s. If you're wondering who #4 on the list of 36+ year olds is ...

Westbrook 11.3 ppg

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional?CF=AGE*GE*36:PTS*GE*10

That's the drop off. And the three guys that are doing it are freaks and all time greats.


I am going to assume you selected 36 instead of 35 so as not to have to include DeMar DeRozan and James Harden to that list :wink: . I personally would have included Chris Paul, especially when you see his production at 36/37. And Westbrook's numbers would be much better if given a starter's role (he's averaging 16-9-6 per 36, which is slightly under his production in his early 30s).

Yep, they are freaks and all-time greats, but Butler isn't far behind from a production standpoint; he's just not in an offense that has him shooting 16-18 times per game. (His per 36 puts him at 12.5 shots per game and 21ppg this season; if he got ~5 more shots, we can conservatively assume he'd make 2 of those, which would put him at ~25-26ppg per 36.)

The larger point is Jimmy Butler hasn't shown any signs of decline and doesn't have an injury history to suggest a sudden drop-off in production. In an ideal world, Miami would not pay a premium for a 36/37 yr old Butler, but I would rather see Miami pay Butler ~$50-$55/year to ~37 than to see Miami move Butler and pay significantly more for a Jonathan Kuminga, who supposedly is looking for a max extension which I think is in the $40M/year range.

I'm not against trading Butler, but the draft picks and young talent some people on the board want is not the kind of trade Miami is going for or likely to make.

I selected 36+ because Jimmy is already 35. Extending him would require committing to him at age 36 and beyond.

Westbrook might score more in a starters role, but his efficiency is trash even in a limited role.

I believe Jimmy had the meniscus in his right knee removed.


That makes sense, I was just teasing.

Butler did hurt his meniscus in 2018 with the Wolves. AFAIK, the surgery was successful and he hasn't had any lingering/chronic knee issues like other guys we've seen with knee injuries, like Kawhi or Derrick Rose.

One thing to consider is the 2nd apron and the tax implications of giving Butler so much money over 2-3 years. If the Heat decide to keep Butler, they may have to give him the total he is looking for, but over a 3-4 year period.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#82 » by contract » Sat Dec 14, 2024 12:29 pm

marson wrote:
lastb1ckman wrote:
marson wrote:
He would be a role player here, and I'm not worried about his downside.

His 2nd Lakers stint is elite, he just hasn't found the right team after that and was bounced to horrible teams. One of the most underrated players in the league that can help a contender.


If it takes a 1st round pick to get him, I'd think the downside matters. Like with Rozier. From what I saw in the lakers forums he tended to have a hard time playing a role and could shoot teams out of games.


I think you are referring to the '21 Lakers where everyone played horribly. His second stint with the '23 Lakers he somewhat turned it around and played much better and main reason he got the bag from the Raptors. And again, Rozier and Schroeder are 2 different players. Defensively alone he would help out Herro and would be massive for this team.

Check all positive comments.


One comment from a Laker fan "Gotta give this guy all the flowers he deserves! He went back to the Lakers for a vet min in order for him to redeem his name on his first stint! Hope they'll get him back next season!"

What kind of comments were you expecting on a "Best of" or "Best clutch plays" video? Who is going to click to watch those videos aside from Dennis Schröder fans?
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#83 » by RexBoyWonder » Sat Dec 14, 2024 12:35 pm

SA37 wrote:
contract wrote:
Spoiler:
SA37 wrote:
I am going to assume you selected 36 instead of 35 so as not to have to include DeMar DeRozan and James Harden to that list :wink: . I personally would have included Chris Paul, especially when you see his production at 36/37. And Westbrook's numbers would be much better if given a starter's role (he's averaging 16-9-6 per 36, which is slightly under his production in his early 30s).

Yep, they are freaks and all-time greats, but Butler isn't far behind from a production standpoint; he's just not in an offense that has him shooting 16-18 times per game. (His per 36 puts him at 12.5 shots per game and 21ppg this season; if he got ~5 more shots, we can conservatively assume he'd make 2 of those, which would put him at ~25-26ppg per 36.)

The larger point is Jimmy Butler hasn't shown any signs of decline and doesn't have an injury history to suggest a sudden drop-off in production. In an ideal world, Miami would not pay a premium for a 36/37 yr old Butler, but I would rather see Miami pay Butler ~$50-$55/year to ~37 than to see Miami move Butler and pay significantly more for a Jonathan Kuminga, who supposedly is looking for a max extension which I think is in the $40M/year range.

I'm not against trading Butler, but the draft picks and young talent some people on the board want is not the kind of trade Miami is going for or likely to make.

I selected 36+ because Jimmy is already 35. Extending him would require committing to him at age 36 and beyond.

Westbrook might score more in a starters role, but his efficiency is trash even in a limited role.

I believe Jimmy had the meniscus in his right knee removed.


That makes sense, I was just teasing.

Butler did hurt his meniscus in 2018 with the Wolves. AFAIK, the surgery was successful and he hasn't had any lingering/chronic knee issues like other guys we've seen with knee injuries, like Kawhi or Derrick Rose.

One thing to consider is the 2nd apron and the tax implications of giving Butler so much money over 2-3 years. If the Heat decide to keep Butler, they may have to give him the total he is looking for, but over a 3-4 year period.


I think Jimmy earned our faith. He's a proven winner in my book. It's not a Dion situation.

Ideally He opts out from his 50 Mil option next year, and we extend him for ~80 Mil over the next 3 seasons. So he stays here an extra 2 years and makes around an extra 30 Mil in his 37 and 38YO seasons. (combined).

I think it's good for him to get that extra $$$ at that age, it's god for us to spread out his salary for more flexibility, and it's good for both sides to keep him around on a smaller per year salary as he ages and takes a smaller role on the team.

He's smart enough and dedicated enough to be a good starter for the next 3 years, even if not as a lone star like he was. We'll need to add another star to the Bam/Herro/Jimmy/Ware/Jamie/Larsson core. It's possible because Herro is locked on long term on a good deal, and we have some young cheap pieces that should be good rotation players.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#84 » by SA37 » Sat Dec 14, 2024 2:01 pm

RexBoyWonder wrote:
I think Jimmy earned our faith. He's a proven winner in my book. It's not a Dion situation.

Ideally He opts out from his 50 Mil option next year, and we extend him for ~80 Mil over the next 3 seasons. So he stays here an extra 2 years and makes around an extra 30 Mil in his 37 and 38YO seasons. (combined).

I think it's good for him to get that extra $$$ at that age, it's god for us to spread out his salary for more flexibility, and it's good for both sides to keep him around on a smaller per year salary as he ages and takes a smaller role on the team.

He's smart enough and dedicated enough to be a good starter for the next 3 years, even if not as a lone star like he was. We'll need to add another star to the Bam/Herro/Jimmy/Ware/Jamie/Larsson core. It's possible because Herro is locked on long term on a good deal, and we have some young cheap pieces that should be good rotation players.


My guess is the franchise generally thinks that, outside of Boston, the East is relatively weak and Miami could beat any team in a series (if healthy) and all bets are off if you make it to the Finals (especially if you're facing a relatively weak team like Dallas). I don't think any team is offering/would offer anything for Butler that would improve Miami's chances on the court, which is a nice way of saying I don't think Herro or Adebayo is capable of taking their game to the next level come playoff time.

I am not particularly enthusiastic about any of Miami's young players and would happily pair them with Rozier and/or Robinson to get some more impact players, but the options are probably pretty limited given Rozier/Robinson + whatever youngns has very little upside and the main attraction is salary relief for the receiving team (Rozier has a team option and Robinson's contract is only partially guaranteed).

I think Miami would do well to get J Collins and then try to get a better wing, like Kyle Kuzma, Cam Johnson, Jerami Grant, or Harrison Barnes.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#85 » by 3ammy3uck3ts » Sat Dec 14, 2024 3:01 pm

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We’re not trading him lmao
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#86 » by Beenie » Sat Dec 14, 2024 3:11 pm

Jimmy a Lifer

On to fixing the Rozier mistake and whether keep or move Jovic
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#87 » by MettaWorldPanda » Sat Dec 14, 2024 3:29 pm

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It’s looking more and more likely Jimmy will be finishing out the year here. GSW looks to be shopping around for other players and the only other team in Houston that could really get a deal done that makes sense are getting cold feet.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#88 » by contract » Sat Dec 14, 2024 3:38 pm

The sooner we trade Jimmy, the sooner we can stop talking about re-signing him. The bad decisions have been piling up around here for years, and we don't need to add to that with another own goal.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#89 » by Beenie » Sat Dec 14, 2024 3:57 pm

contract wrote:The sooner we trade Jimmy, the sooner we can stop talking about re-signing him. The bad decisions have been piling up around here for years, and we don't need to add to that with another own goal.


If they move Jimmy and don’t move Bam (in the offseason) and potentially Herro, then that would be the worse case scenario

W/o Jimmy, MIA is a lotto team. Mine as well blow it up.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#90 » by contract » Sat Dec 14, 2024 4:04 pm

Beenie wrote:
contract wrote:The sooner we trade Jimmy, the sooner we can stop talking about re-signing him. The bad decisions have been piling up around here for years, and we don't need to add to that with another own goal.


If they move Jimmy and don’t move Bam (in the offseason) and potentially Herro, then that would be the worse case scenario

W/o Jimmy, MIA is a lotto team. Mine as well blow it up.

I would generally agree, though I think Bam can be a defensive anchor for another 6 years. Herro is still young, but he's limited, and his role is going to lead to another train wreck of a contract, so he definitely needs to get moved.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#91 » by Beenie » Sat Dec 14, 2024 4:18 pm

contract wrote:
Beenie wrote:
contract wrote:The sooner we trade Jimmy, the sooner we can stop talking about re-signing him. The bad decisions have been piling up around here for years, and we don't need to add to that with another own goal.


If they move Jimmy and don’t move Bam (in the offseason) and potentially Herro, then that would be the worse case scenario

W/o Jimmy, MIA is a lotto team. Mine as well blow it up.

I would generally agree, though I think Bam can be a defensive anchor for another 6 years. Herro is still young, but he's limited, and his role is going to lead to another train wreck of a contract, so he definitely needs to get moved.


They are Titos who require the benefit of playing next to a true alpha.

I’m not philosophically for building a team around Tito’s.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#92 » by AirP. » Sat Dec 14, 2024 4:23 pm

MettaWorldPanda wrote:
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Spoiler:
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It’s looking more and more likely Jimmy will be finishing out the year here. GSW looks to be shopping around for other players and the only other team in Houston that could really get a deal done that makes sense are getting cold feet.


This is what I've been talking about for now a year, the Heat's FO has put the owner in team in the tax 2 straight season which is leading towards the repeater clause. Nobody complains about this FO because they don't usually make trades without leverage to win those trades but they were a disaster last year and still not a peep. 1st, they let a solid (not great) starter in Vincent walk because they wouldn't offer him 11-12 mil a year to be their starter, then they decide, you know what, let's not let Lowry's contract expire getting us out of the aprons and tax, instead lets send a 1st and nearly 30 mil in expiring contract to a career low efficiency high volume scorer in Rozier who's on a rare hot streak in his career.

So as of now, Miami is boxed in and the repeater tax is looming, what's the easiest way out? Maybe we blame it on Butler and his contract and let him walk. I watched this kind of mind game with the media/fans happening in Chiago, the FO would screw up with signings and trades and then it would fall onto the highest paid player at the time's salary. You guys remember Luol Deng, well he just got into All-Star status in Chicago, he's doing well and then lots of media all of a sudden started talking about his large salary (all the reporters seemed to be tight with the FO) and then he's traded to Cleveland for Andrew Bynum with a 1st, a couple 2nds and a swap, interesting tidbit about Bynum, he could and did get instantly waved to get Chicago's horrible FO out of the tax, so Chicago's all-star, who nobody had an issue with most loved got trashed for nearly 1/2 a season because of the financials just to make moving him for a single 1st and a few other things acceptable to the fan base. This Butler situation isn't exactly the same but it reeks a lot like that, just like what happened with Wade feeling underappreciated for all he did and signing with Chicago and Miam's future was bad until Butler forced his way there... about half a decade. Had Butler not forced his way there, I'm not sure when this franchise would have been good enough to have a shot getting past the 1st round of the playoffs.

It's just odd how certain players who the fans love all of a sudden are the bad guys in a matter of months when the FO has painted that franchise in a financial corner, it's not the other player bad contracts they've signed and traded for that are the problem, it's the biggest contract that is the get out of jail card's problem. Even when Miami was close to being good enough to win a championship this last decade, Miami zagged how they were and started using their assets/pics to draft players that couldn't help in the next few years.
Spoiler:
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This is why I no longer am blindly just one team's fan and would rather just follow a player I like career; there's pros and cons to it but overall, I'm happier watching basketball this way. It's hard to have loyalty to organizations who have very little loyalty to their workers who are their players whom some who go above and beyond taking shots or playing injured for that particular team. OKC is about the only team who seems mostly upfront about these situations and don't trash their once beloved players to get out of financial problems (. They didn't trash Harden when they traded him because of financials, they didn't trash Westbrook or George when they traded them, they were up front with why the fanbase was overall fine with those decisions.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#93 » by 3ammy3uck3ts » Sat Dec 14, 2024 4:40 pm

You’re going to get your next “alpha” because of Bam, guys want to come here because of him. We’ve seen this with Mitchell, Dame, KD not wanting to be here without him, and now Fox this summer. No one would even be talking about Fox if not for Bam, he can’t make the FO get it done though that’s on them.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#94 » by 3ammy3uck3ts » Sat Dec 14, 2024 4:48 pm

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I’m still keeping an eye on AD. LeBron, not Jimmy, needs to go to Golden State. The Lakers are god awful and the narrative for the NBA as a whole would go crazy if LeBron teamed up with Steph and Draymond in Golden State. With talks of ratings being down so much since the Heatle era ruled the world this is exactly what the league needs. Then you let AD choose his destination and why not team up with his front court partner he just dominated alongside for the gold medal while also getting to play with an elite player like Jimmy and blossoming scorer Herro?

Terry
Duncan
Jaime
Jovic
Ware
Any available picks going out

You all will disagree with me here but I think Jaime in the right situation could be sent out to an OKC, Utah, SA, anywhere with a **** load of picks and potentially net you 2 if the Lakers would prefer that to Jaime. A contender like OKC can bolster their depth for their championship run while easily absorbing his money. Utah and SA get an easy to absorb piece proven young talent to go with their young cores without having to risk hitting on a draft pick to get that type of player.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#95 » by AirP. » Sat Dec 14, 2024 4:56 pm

3ammy3uck3ts wrote:
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I’m still keeping an eye on AD. LeBron, not Jimmy, needs to go to Golden State. The Lakers are god awful and the narrative for the NBA as a whole would go crazy if LeBron teamed up with Steph and Draymond in Golden State. With talks of ratings being down so much since the Heatle era ruled the world this is exactly what the league needs. Then you let AD choose his destination and why not team up with his front court partner he just dominated alongside for the gold medal while also getting to play with an elite player like Jimmy and blossoming scorer Herro?

Spoiler:
Terry
Duncan
Jaime
Jovic
Ware
Any available picks going out

You all will disagree with me here but I think Jaime in the right situation could be sent out to an OKC, Utah, SA, anywhere with a **** load of picks and potentially net you 2 if the Lakers would prefer that to Jaime. A contender like OKC can bolster their depth for their championship run while easily absorbing his money. Utah and SA get an easy to absorb piece proven young talent to go with their young cores without having to risk hitting on a draft pick to get that type of player.


Golden State doesn't have the assets to get AD, AD should net LA a package to kickstart a rebuild.

I think once Wemby gets his 3 down or starts playing more near the rim (as he gets stronger), he'll have higher level players (players who have options since they know they'll get paid wherever they play) pushing to go to San Antonio.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#96 » by heater4life » Sat Dec 14, 2024 5:09 pm

There’s nothing actively on the market that makes sense to trade Jimmy for. Now if younger star were to demand a trade (Deaaron Fox for example) I think offloading Jimmy, some youth, makes a lot of sense. Getting a 3rd team that is in win now mode involved, makes them competive with Jimmy and opens up more youth and assets to be sent to a team in a rebuild.

Highly unlikely though.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#97 » by EMC5466 » Sat Dec 14, 2024 6:13 pm

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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#98 » by Bmaster » Sat Dec 14, 2024 6:19 pm

Beenie wrote:Jimmy a Lifer

On to fixing the Rozier mistake and whether keep or move Jovic


Jovic they should keep. Down with Rozier trade and maybe add jrich too
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#99 » by MettaWorldPanda » Sat Dec 14, 2024 6:24 pm

The only thing that remotely makes sense right now is trading away Rozier and Jovic for some soon to be free agent win now vets. I mention Jovic due to his contract situation being up sooner then JJJ and Ware.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#100 » by Kobewade11 » Sat Dec 14, 2024 6:26 pm

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