Schroeder to GSW

[brownbobcat]

1. If they could have, they would have. The summer tells us his contract was not a non-issue as teams were not willing to take on full MLE salaries.

Oh, this line of defense again - they always choose the best option available, maximal available return, etc. They had to give up a lottery pick for Poeltl, had to overpay Boucher, had to get nothing for Schroder - there is never an admission that they just screwed up. This FO makes more smart decisions than dumb ones, but can we not just call a spade a spade sometimes? The fact that the MLE wasn't specifically used often in the offseason doesn't mean anything. Quite a few guys signed for cap room or with the Bird exception.

2. What salary problem? As you point out, they could have done the Kings trade with Schroeder on the books as well. What that trade allowed was the ability to keep the MLE open for a trade and the Raptors are one of the only few teams that have this space going into the deadline. Let’s see if/how they use it.

Again, you can't point to cap space as a positive benefit from the Schroder trade when they would have had it all along without signing him. At best, it's treading water. Every team has the ability to have cap room or the MLE if they don't waste it in the first place.

[Zeno]

It is a pretty clear indication that GS is hoping to still make a trade for a big salary player(that will likely stick them deep in the tax next year) that they prioritized getting back a 2025 2nd.

[brownbobcat]

#1 is complete conjecture and can’t be proven at all. We traded Schroder at the deadline which implies we had exhausted our trade avenues for him last year. He also had an extra year left on his deal which changes the dynamics as well. Given almost all of Schroder’s history with the league teams do not want to pay him for multiple seasons.

Based on past history, it is completely reasonable conjecture to expect that a proven NBA rotation-level player in his prime owed MLE money for 1 more year has more than zero trade value.

BKN has the advantage of Schroder being an expiring. If they did one thing better it’s that they moved early before Schroder’s scoring numbers inevitably dip back down (his efficiency is already declining after a hot start).

Schroder is not a desirable player around the league. He got the MLE from us because we had no other options after FVV left. This deal could effectively be 2 non top 40 2nds for the Nets. That is basically what we got from the Kings so they could get rid of Vezenkov and Mitchell. If teams wanted to dump salary on us last season they would not have been able to do so because Schroder’s deal ran another year.

If Schroder is so undesirable, how is he lasting 10+ years in the league playing 25-30+ minutes every season?
Which idiot in the FO didn't realize he was undesirable and decided to overpay him multiple years for a tanking season?
Why didn't they save that cap space in order to accept salary dumps and draft picks? If they could have, they would have, right?

You can't have it both ways.

Think about this deal in a vacuum. GSW would have had to pay 1-2 2nds to get off of Melton. Who was the Melton that got traded at last seasons deadline? At best GSW paid a mediocre 2nd for Schroder because they also had to pay to get off of Melton.

Melton is an expiring deal and also qualified for the DPE. Somebody told me those are valuable, so why would GSW need to pay so much to get rid of Melton? Royce O'Neale got traded for 3 2nd-rounders (and a FRP 2 years prior) in a very similar situation last year.

[AkelaLoneWolf]

Need Brown back and playing so he can be traded.

its not encouraging though if this is the best a productive expiring vet player can get; srp you can't redeem 2-3 years down the road.

[ForeverTFC]

1. If they could have, they would have. The summer tells us his contract was not a non-issue as teams were not willing to take on full MLE salaries.

Oh, this line of defense again - they always choose the best option available, maximal available return, etc. They had to give up a lottery pick for Poeltl, had to overpay Boucher, had to get nothing for Schroder - there is never an admission that they just screwed up. This FO makes more smart decisions than dumb ones, but can we not just call a spade a spade sometimes? The fact that the MLE wasn't specifically used often in the offseason doesn't mean anything. Quite a few guys signed for cap room or with the Bird exception.

2. What salary problem? As you point out, they could have done the Kings trade with Schroeder on the books as well. What that trade allowed was the ability to keep the MLE open for a trade and the Raptors are one of the only few teams that have this space going into the deadline. Let’s see if/how they use it.

Again, you can't point to cap space as a positive benefit from the Schroder trade when they would have had it all along without signing him. At best, it's treading water. Every team has the ability to have cap room or the MLE if they don't waste it in the first place.

With all due respect, I think you could study the cap a bit more.

Signing guys using cap room is irrelevant as teams must hit 90% of their cap space in the off-season. And using bird rights to sign players is to preserve the cap hit. Very few teams used the MLE this year and only one used the max MLE: the Warriors. If Melton didn’t go out for the year, there would have been little market out there for Schroeder. Could the FO have gotten a 2nd for him if they took term back last year? Maybe. But pretending that they could have gotten an expiring and a pick but simply chose not to is insane. Why would they have done this?

Now to this premise of “wasting” cap space: NBA teams need to be at 90% of the cap by the time the season starts. After that point, you will want to keep salaries on your cap sheet up to the tax, unless you have a cap crunch coming. This is because you can’t sign players into that space outside using an exception. Most teams carry salaries that you may deem they are “wasting” though that’s not the case: they are maintaining the cap hold for trades. Sometimes trades don’t happen, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be well prepared for one.

[Tripod]

Here is what we know...no one "seemed" to offer the Raps a 2nd for him last year unless they also wanted to send back someone with term Masai didn't want.

Ultimately, who cares. Not all FO are going to get the best deal possible comparing to other deals...especially comparing to deals 1 year later when a guy is expiring vs having term.

Be happy our FO did a deal in the offseason to land us 2 2nds+ Davion for nothing. There are other teams that are jealous as hell we got that deal. Other teams with cap space "could" have gotten the deal and didn't. It happens.

In the end, we got the the same for McDaniels as they got for Schroeder. Weird **** happens.

[treerollins]

not a fan of this for the warriors.
bunch of seconds for gp2, refuse to trade podz, 3 seconds for schroeder
melton was a great fit there, too bad he went down. kuminga’s gonna be pissed watching dennis dominate the ball

[Shakril]

a very bad trade for the warriors

[brownbobcat]

With all due respect, I think you could study the cap a bit more.

Signing guys using cap room is irrelevant as teams must hit 90% of their cap space in the off-season. And using bird rights to sign players is to preserve the cap hit. Very few teams used the MLE this year and only one used the max MLE: the Warriors. If Melton didn’t go out for the year, there would have been little market out there for Schroeder. Could the FO have gotten a 2nd for him if they took term back last year? Maybe. But pretending that they could have gotten an expiring and a pick but simply chose not to is insane. Why would they have done this?

I am well aware of how the cap works, I'm using "cap room" colloquially to mean any operating room up the 1st or 2nd apron and not just space under the cap figure. Teams added to, subtracted from and swapped player salaries using a variety of means - not just the MLE. The use of the MLE is completely irrelevant to Schroder's value as a trade asset - using that same logic would lead to the conclusion that every single rotation player making $10-13 mil this year also had zero trade value, which is ridiculous.

As I very specifically stated, of course I don't think the FO intentionally turned down expirings + picks. Do I think they didn't negotiate hard enough and just wanted Schroder gone? Absolutely. "They woulda if they coulda" excuse can't be used every single time when we have lots of evidence that players of that caliber/salary have value. Again, the bar is incredibly low here - they got NOTHING.

Now to this premise of “wasting” cap space: NBA teams need to be at 90% of the cap by the time the season starts. After that point, you will want to keep salaries on your cap sheet up to the tax, unless you have a cap crunch coming. This is because you can’t sign players into that space outside using an exception. Most teams carry salaries that you may deem they are “wasting” though that’s not the case: they are maintaining the cap hold for trades. Sometimes trades don’t happen, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be well prepared for one.

A high cap floor makes it MORE important to use space wisely, not less. It limits the ability of teams to "bank" profits in order to offset luxury tax payments down the road. If you're forced to overpay players relative to their worth just to make the minimum, then you've stuck yourself with undesirable assets that have little trade value. For teams operating between cap & apron, expiring contracts can actually be a bad thing if not converted into productive players because you lose a tradeable contract - this is why Toronto kept Brown despite his ridiculous salary. It's a bad contract that won't work for most teams, but not having it would have limited trade options for Toronto.

[Los_29]

Schroder was dealt for two low value 2nd round picks. What was Masai thinking? He should’ve held onto him at the expense of our younger players.

[pbernardi]

Honestly, this is an awful management from Nets side. Raptors signed Schroeder last season trying to win - if we should try to win with the talent we had is other discussion.

With Schroeder playing, Nets win enough games to lost 3-5 positions on their draft. In exchange of 2x 2nd round picks?

Drafting higher in lottery is worth much more than two second round picks.

[OakleyDokely]

Looks like the Nets started to panic about winning too many games. Getting some mid-late 2nds is just slightly better than getting nothing at all.

Jordi is looking really great as coach.

[ForeverTFC]

I am well aware of how the cap works, I'm using "cap room" colloquially to mean any operating room up the 1st or 2nd apron and not just space under the cap figure. Teams added to, subtracted from and swapped player salaries using a variety of means - not just the MLE. The use of the MLE is completely irrelevant to Schroder's value as a trade asset - using that same logic would lead to the conclusion that every single rotation player making $10-13 mil this year also had zero trade value, which is ridiculous.

To the contrary, the MLE point is extremely relevant. The MLE is the only way for teams above the cap to participate in FA. That only 1 team (Warriors) chose to use it fully tells you how teams were approaching their cap this year. And that team only gave out a 1 year contract. There were better players than Schroder in the market last summer who had to settle for minimums. Why is that?

And the $10-$13m player having more limited value today is real. The new salary matching rules, salary aggregation rules, and the fact that the MLE itself is now a trade exception makes that salary less attractive. As you pointed out correctly, Brown’s contract has a lot more value as a trade chip than Schroeder’s.

Raps unloaded term without having to give up anything last year. The Nets had no need for their space and took a chance on generating a return off of it this year when there was no term remaining, which brought them two low end 2nds. But let’s not pretend they got all that much when you can get those picks pretty easily as our FO demonstrated last off-season.

[Psubs]

Pacers spent a 2nd on Thomas Bryant who I always wanted to acquire. Great pick up. They should just let Jackson and Wiseman walk next year since Bryant is a capable back up that can also shoot the 3 occasionally.

[DreamTeam09]

Avg player on expiring can raise value
Star player on expiring can decrease value

NBA market has shown that over the recent yrs

[ConSarnit]

#1 is complete conjecture and can’t be proven at all. We traded Schroder at the deadline which implies we had exhausted our trade avenues for him last year. He also had an extra year left on his deal which changes the dynamics as well. Given almost all of Schroder’s history with the league teams do not want to pay him for multiple seasons.

Based on past history, it is completely reasonable conjecture to expect that a proven NBA rotation-level player in his prime owed MLE money for 1 more year has more than zero trade value.

BKN has the advantage of Schroder being an expiring. If they did one thing better it’s that they moved early before Schroder’s scoring numbers inevitably dip back down (his efficiency is already declining after a hot start).

Schroder is not a desirable player around the league. He got the MLE from us because we had no other options after FVV left. This deal could effectively be 2 non top 40 2nds for the Nets. That is basically what we got from the Kings so they could get rid of Vezenkov and Mitchell. If teams wanted to dump salary on us last season they would not have been able to do so because Schroder’s deal ran another year.

If Schroder is so undesirable, how is he lasting 10+ years in the league playing 25-30+ minutes every season?
Which idiot in the FO didn't realize he was undesirable and decided to overpay him multiple years for a tanking season?
Why didn't they save that cap space in order to accept salary dumps and draft picks? If they could have, they would have, right?

You can't have it both ways.

Think about this deal in a vacuum. GSW would have had to pay 1-2 2nds to get off of Melton. Who was the Melton that got traded at last seasons deadline? At best GSW paid a mediocre 2nd for Schroder because they also had to pay to get off of Melton.

Melton is an expiring deal and also qualified for the DPE. Somebody told me those are valuable, so why would GSW need to pay so much to get rid of Melton? Royce O'Neale got traded for 3 2nd-rounders (and a FRP 2 years prior) in a very similar situation last year.

If Schroder is so desirable why is he getting the MLE or less every year and can't stay on the same team for more than a year and a half? He's a 14/5/3 guard who can defend and has rep as a "solid rotation piece" yet no team he is on ever treats him that way. We overpaid him because FVV walked we had to emergency pivot as we still wanted to remain competitive (a mistake by the FO). The Lakers traded the 28th pick for him, offered him a really dumb contract (that Dennis declined) and then, after finishing the season with the Schroder experience, let him walk for nothing.

How are you going to compare O'Neale to Melton? O'Neal fits the 3+D wing archetype of a player and is actually healthy an can play in NBA games.

And I don't know who told you that about Melton because they are dumb and don't understand how things work. How would a completely useless Melton (torn ACL) who is on a 1 year deal have any value? At absolute best he's salary filler. He might was well be a brick that is making $12m on a cap sheet.

Look at Schroder's last few years:

-traded for 28th pick
-Lakers let him walk for nothing after a year
-BOS dumped him to HOU for nothing (even though DS was averaging 14/4/3 and only making $5.9m) after 49 games
-re-signs in LA for the min, leaves after 1 year
-TOR dumps him for expiring salary after 1 year

No one wants the Schroder experience for more than a year. We signed him for the MLE because we had no other options. It doesn't make sense that we didn't exhaust possible trade options for Schroder last year. It was clear after the OG trade we were pivoting. There was nothing available for DS at the time because no one wants him for more than 50 games.

BKN was smarter than us in getting off of Schroder this early before he eventually reverts back to normal Schroder. We couldn't have acted as fast because DS had already reverted back to normal DS by the time we could trade him (Dec. 15) and we hadn't pulled the plug on the season yet with the OG trade. If we wanted to trade "good Dennis" (the guy who was averaging 17/9/3 on 46/42/77 shooting) we would have had to do it on Nov. 5 which was before we were legally allowed to trade him. Schroder has just managed to keep us his charade longer this season (he's already regressing if you look at his past 10-12 games).

[ConSarnit]

Pacers spent a 2nd on Thomas Bryant who I always wanted to acquire. Great pick up. They should just let Jackson and Wiseman walk next year since Bryant is a capable back up that can also shoot the 3 occasionally.

Thomas Bryant sucks. He's somehow worse than Olynyk on defense and he's also a worse offensive player. Bryant can't play minutes on any serious NBA team (which I assume we will try to be next year).