ImageImageImage

Celtics 2025-26, Off-Season/Training Camp Thread

Moderators: bisme37, Parliament10, canman1971, shackles10, snowman, Froob, Darthlukey, Shak_Celts

cloverleaf
RealGM
Posts: 10,262
And1: 7,559
Joined: Feb 10, 2007

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#861 » by cloverleaf » Sun Dec 15, 2024 6:54 am

ConstableGeneva wrote:via inpredict.bsky.social:
Image

This is an attempt to put some numbers behind what is likely one of the more vibes-based player awards - The Jerry West Clutch Player of the Year

https://www.inpredictable.com/2023/01/the-jerry-west-clutch-player-of-year.html


DWhite (6) and Tatum (12) both make top 15. They try to track these things so we don't have to rely on our biased eyes (which also don't watch every player/game).


And PP (13). Those are the C's 3 AS-level performers so far this year.
(And Sabonis continues to be underrated in the league.)
User avatar
shackles10
Forum Mod - Celtics
Forum Mod - Celtics
Posts: 12,362
And1: 7,224
Joined: May 13, 2004
Location: Indiana
 

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#862 » by shackles10 » Sun Dec 15, 2024 2:49 pm

Parliament10 wrote:
Read on Twitter


I do wish he’d mentioned wishing Bill was there to share it as well and not just Red. I know you could keep going and say “well what about Tommy”, but was hoping for a Russ mention mostly bc I started reading Coos’s book about Russ after Russell’s passing until I misplaced it while moving.
User avatar
ConstableGeneva
RealGM
Posts: 50,514
And1: 101,232
Joined: Sep 22, 2012
Location: Parody Account
 

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#863 » by ConstableGeneva » Mon Dec 16, 2024 10:37 am

Two teams are a cut above the rest. One from the West (OKC) and one from the East (and it's not the Cavs).

via John Schuhmann at BlueSky:
Records in games played between the 17 teams that are currently over .500.

Image


via DunksandThrees:

Image
░N░0░0░D░S░ ░I░N░ ░B░I░O░
User avatar
ConstableGeneva
RealGM
Posts: 50,514
And1: 101,232
Joined: Sep 22, 2012
Location: Parody Account
 

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#864 » by ConstableGeneva » Mon Dec 16, 2024 5:07 pm

The Celtics are currently employing 4 of 6 players in franchise history who's made at least 400 threes at 38% clip as a Celtic. What a time to be alive.

Image

EDIT: Jrue Holiday has made 181 threes as a Celtic at a 40.1% clip.
░N░0░0░D░S░ ░I░N░ ░B░I░O░
keevsnick1
Analyst
Posts: 3,100
And1: 4,698
Joined: Feb 27, 2017
       

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#865 » by keevsnick1 » Mon Dec 16, 2024 5:30 pm

Triple M wrote:
keevsnick1 wrote:The Celtics take and make a lot of threes, but they also do pretty well on the other side of the 3 point equation. They allow they 4th fewest 3 point shots a game with 35.8. They rank 11th in opponent 3 point percentage at 35.8%.

That 11th rank is interesting. Conventional wisdom says defensive three point percentage is more or less random. NBA teams can change how many threes they give up, but to some degree whether they go in or not is luck. But the Celtics have typically been an exception to the rule.

Here's the C's ranks other the last nine years:
16-17: 2nd
17-18: 1st
18-19: 6th
19-20: 2nd
20-21: 22nd
21-22: 1st
22-23: 4th
23-24: 4th
24-15: 11th

So this is sort of an "off" year defending the three for them.


I think you can go furtherback to 08.


I start at 16-17 becasue that's the year they drafted Brown and signed Horford, what i consider the start of the current era, but your right they've been good at preventing threes long than that.

They've moved up to 8th in the league in opponent 3 point shooting at 35.0%. They allow the fourth fewest made threes per game at just 12.4. They also make 19 threes a game, which means on average they win the three point context by about 20 points a game.

They dominate the "math" game.
User avatar
165bows
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 22,158
And1: 15,020
Joined: Jan 03, 2013
Location: The land of incremental improvement.

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#866 » by 165bows » Mon Dec 16, 2024 6:31 pm

keevsnick1 wrote:
Triple M wrote:
keevsnick1 wrote:The Celtics take and make a lot of threes, but they also do pretty well on the other side of the 3 point equation. They allow they 4th fewest 3 point shots a game with 35.8. They rank 11th in opponent 3 point percentage at 35.8%.

That 11th rank is interesting. Conventional wisdom says defensive three point percentage is more or less random. NBA teams can change how many threes they give up, but to some degree whether they go in or not is luck. But the Celtics have typically been an exception to the rule.

Here's the C's ranks other the last nine years:
16-17: 2nd
17-18: 1st
18-19: 6th
19-20: 2nd
20-21: 22nd
21-22: 1st
22-23: 4th
23-24: 4th
24-15: 11th

So this is sort of an "off" year defending the three for them.


I think you can go furtherback to 08.


I start at 16-17 becasue that's the year they drafted Brown and signed Horford, what i consider the start of the current era, but your right they've been good at preventing threes long than that.

They've moved up to 8th in the league in opponent 3 point shooting at 35.0%. They allow the fourth fewest made threes per game at just 12.4. They also make 19 threes a game, which means on average they win the three point context by about 20 points a game.

They dominate the "math" game.

This is a noteworthy post as there is a lot of extremely relevant info here on this team. I would be very curious what the FO/coaches think of the outcomes here on this year in particular.
Gant
RealGM
Posts: 11,013
And1: 15,513
Joined: Mar 16, 2006

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#867 » by Gant » Mon Dec 16, 2024 7:29 pm

Here's a long and interesting article about how to approach beating Boston. It's worth reading. Basically the idea is, don't help on the Celtics drivers because that's how they get spot up threes, which is an area they kill everybody.

I don't really agree with the conclusion. Teams have tried taking away the three with limited success. But this is well presented and worth the read.

Boston And The Math Apocalypse
Stop guarding the Celtics like other teams

* Teams let Boston off the hook by guarding them traditionally

* It will take a tailored defensive shift to actually beat them four times

* Boston’s real triumph is taking advantage of coach and player stubbornness

Hardwood Paroxysm

https://hardwoodparoxysm.substack.com/p/boston-and-the-math-apocalypse?r=h6ne&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&triedRedirect=true
phincsfan
Analyst
Posts: 3,567
And1: 2,975
Joined: May 27, 2024
   

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#868 » by phincsfan » Mon Dec 16, 2024 7:35 pm

Any word on KP?
User avatar
Parliament10
Forum Mod - Celtics
Forum Mod - Celtics
Posts: 51,327
And1: 60,398
Joined: Jul 24, 2009
       

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#869 » by Parliament10 » Mon Dec 16, 2024 8:21 pm

phincsfan wrote:Any word on KP?

Read on Twitter



4 Days off. Looks like he'll play.
"You have to put the work in.
Nothing is given."

~ Jayson Tatum
User avatar
ConstableGeneva
RealGM
Posts: 50,514
And1: 101,232
Joined: Sep 22, 2012
Location: Parody Account
 

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#870 » by ConstableGeneva » Mon Dec 16, 2024 10:47 pm

Celtics Porn. I bet you won't last two minutes.

░N░0░0░D░S░ ░I░N░ ░B░I░O░
User avatar
165bows
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 22,158
And1: 15,020
Joined: Jan 03, 2013
Location: The land of incremental improvement.

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#871 » by 165bows » Mon Dec 16, 2024 11:41 pm

Gant wrote:Here's a long and interesting article about how to approach beating Boston. It's worth reading. Basically the idea is, don't help on the Celtics drivers because that's how they get spot up threes, which is an area they kill everybody.

I don't really agree with the conclusion. Teams have tried taking away the three with limited success. But this is well presented and worth the read.

Boston And The Math Apocalypse
Stop guarding the Celtics like other teams

* Teams let Boston off the hook by guarding them traditionally

* It will take a tailored defensive shift to actually beat them four times

* Boston’s real triumph is taking advantage of coach and player stubbornness

Hardwood Paroxysm

https://hardwoodparoxysm.substack.com/p/boston-and-the-math-apocalypse?r=h6ne&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&triedRedirect=true

Looking forward to taking a look at this but I think this is how Boston plays more or less. Eg against Dallas, they send a lot of hedging kind of help and have a few spots where they help hard, but mainly they just make the other team's best player beat them.

Which sounds like maybe not a good strategy but perhaps the best way to say it is they make that guy beat 1.25 guys all the time and they just can't do it successfully enough and then ultimately just wear out.
User avatar
165bows
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 22,158
And1: 15,020
Joined: Jan 03, 2013
Location: The land of incremental improvement.

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#872 » by 165bows » Tue Dec 17, 2024 2:27 am

165bows wrote:
Gant wrote:Here's a long and interesting article about how to approach beating Boston. It's worth reading. Basically the idea is, don't help on the Celtics drivers because that's how they get spot up threes, which is an area they kill everybody.

I don't really agree with the conclusion. Teams have tried taking away the three with limited success. But this is well presented and worth the read.

Boston And The Math Apocalypse
Stop guarding the Celtics like other teams

* Teams let Boston off the hook by guarding them traditionally

* It will take a tailored defensive shift to actually beat them four times

* Boston’s real triumph is taking advantage of coach and player stubbornness

Hardwood Paroxysm

https://hardwoodparoxysm.substack.com/p/boston-and-the-math-apocalypse?r=h6ne&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&triedRedirect=true

Looking forward to taking a look at this but I think this is how Boston plays more or less. Eg against Dallas, they send a lot of hedging kind of help and have a few spots where they help hard, but mainly they just make the other team's best player beat them.

Which sounds like maybe not a good strategy but perhaps the best way to say it is they make that guy beat 1.25 guys all the time and they just can't do it successfully enough and then ultimately just wear out.

So he makes some good points here and I liked the article but I totally agree it fell flat on having a conclusion that works.

Now, I’m not saying this is that simple. The efficiency on those attempts by Tatum and Brown are inherently impacted by the very help I’m advocating against. If you don’t send help, they convert more of them and the efficiency goes up.

But look at those numbers. Tatum has to add 10 points for every 100 possessions he drives to make up that difference.


He plays devils advocate with himself by mentioning the obvious counter point to his argument - that all the numbers he is citing are based on how teams currently play the Celtics. So it truly doesn’t work to say ‘hey just contest threes harder and give less help in isolation to limit the threes’ and then assume no other variable changes.

Point being we get the tendency for rim attempts to move towards less variance than three point shots. In other words he brings up the best counter argument to his point to sort of neuter it but really doesn’t counter it.

I think he both over exaggerates the quality of the team (are people still saying ‘no one can beat Boston? Like in the off season?) and also glosses over that it’s not just Boston’s scheme but also the personnel. Ie, Boston more or less does do what he is recommending on defense, but they have better one on one defenders while other teams have fewer scoring threats. So is it really some sort of thick headed hubris on the part of other teams?

It’s telling to see the statistics and worthwhile esp for the anti-three crowd. But I agree it’s like he had a lot of good data and then kind of struggled to make a steamy narrative out of it.
User avatar
ConstableGeneva
RealGM
Posts: 50,514
And1: 101,232
Joined: Sep 22, 2012
Location: Parody Account
 

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#873 » by ConstableGeneva » Tue Dec 17, 2024 2:55 am

via NBA University:
5-Man lineups with the most possessions played together so far this season (excluding garbage time)

Takeaways?

Image


C's can rest Porzingis if he needs it.
░N░0░0░D░S░ ░I░N░ ░B░I░O░
User avatar
ConstableGeneva
RealGM
Posts: 50,514
And1: 101,232
Joined: Sep 22, 2012
Location: Parody Account
 

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#874 » by ConstableGeneva » Tue Dec 17, 2024 3:46 am

░N░0░0░D░S░ ░I░N░ ░B░I░O░
User avatar
ConstableGeneva
RealGM
Posts: 50,514
And1: 101,232
Joined: Sep 22, 2012
Location: Parody Account
 

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#875 » by ConstableGeneva » Thu Dec 19, 2024 3:53 pm

ConstableGeneva wrote:White and Pritchard, ladies and gentlemen!

Image

via: NBA University

In 2016-17, Curry and Klay combined for 156/290 from 3 (40.0%) after 22 games (19-3).
This season, PP and DWhite have combined for 163/389 from 3 (41.9%) after 22 games (18-4).

I'm not saying they're the new Curry and Klay. But I'm NOT not saying they're the new Curry and Klay.

Someone else finally took notice...

Read on Twitter
░N░0░0░D░S░ ░I░N░ ░B░I░O░
User avatar
ConstableGeneva
RealGM
Posts: 50,514
And1: 101,232
Joined: Sep 22, 2012
Location: Parody Account
 

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#876 » by ConstableGeneva » Thu Dec 19, 2024 3:57 pm

Happy #NBAAllStar Vote Opening Day for those who celebrate!
░N░0░0░D░S░ ░I░N░ ░B░I░O░
User avatar
Parliament10
Forum Mod - Celtics
Forum Mod - Celtics
Posts: 51,327
And1: 60,398
Joined: Jul 24, 2009
       

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#877 » by Parliament10 » Fri Dec 20, 2024 12:39 am

Read on Twitter
"You have to put the work in.
Nothing is given."

~ Jayson Tatum
Gant
RealGM
Posts: 11,013
And1: 15,513
Joined: Mar 16, 2006

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#878 » by Gant » Sat Dec 21, 2024 2:31 am

Sean Grande:
Little reality check after last night...

TEAM A
21-6
1.194 Off Rating (5th)
1.102 Def Rating (4th)
9.2 Net (2nd)
+9.14 Scoring Margin

TEAM B
21-6
1.195 Off Rating (3rd)
1.100 Def Rating (8th)
9.5 Net (3rd)
+9.44 Scoring Margin

Team A: Last year's Celtics
Team B: This year's Celtics

https://bsky.app/profile/seangrandepbp.bsky.social/post/3ldrrfx4z522h
User avatar
ConstableGeneva
RealGM
Posts: 50,514
And1: 101,232
Joined: Sep 22, 2012
Location: Parody Account
 

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#879 » by ConstableGeneva » Sat Dec 21, 2024 2:37 am

Gant wrote:Sean Grande:
Little reality check after last night...

TEAM A
21-6
1.194 Off Rating (5th)
1.102 Def Rating (4th)
9.2 Net (2nd)
+9.14 Scoring Margin

TEAM B
21-6
1.195 Off Rating (3rd)
1.100 Def Rating (8th)
9.5 Net (3rd)
+9.44 Scoring Margin

Team A: Last year's Celtics
Team B: This year's Celtics

https://bsky.app/profile/seangrandepbp.bsky.social/post/3ldrrfx4z522h

Looks even better (except for defense this season) when garbage time is removed. Posted stats on the Bulls PG thread.
░N░0░0░D░S░ ░I░N░ ░B░I░O░
User avatar
Fierce1
RealGM
Posts: 19,195
And1: 16,522
Joined: Jan 31, 2021
   

Re: Celtics 2024-25, Season Thread 

Post#880 » by Fierce1 » Sun Dec 22, 2024 3:29 pm

The 1-2-2 zone defense should be used more often because it really disrupts the flow of the offense of the opposing team.

Return to Boston Celtics