Rank these plays as creations

[OhayoKD]

Rank the three plays below in terms of creation/playmaking value

Play 1: Lebron dribble+dump, 2007 Finals
https://youtu.be/5wV4upjIN_g?t=92
Play 2: Kobe pass, 2008 Finals:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1__JAMCvoaHbJUyuuSy5MvbHOL1zYbEPB/view?usp=sharing
Play 3: Hakeem roll, 1994 Finals
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13GyFE-Fd_ONgEsRbARhr-4IO3s5Z91A1/view?usp=sharing

[B-Mitch 30]

I'm not good at these kinds of evaluations, so I'll describe what I think I see in these plays and rank them accordingly.

1. Zydrunas Ilgauskas passes the ball to Sasha Pavlovic who passes it to LeBron. This seems to draw Tim Duncan and Michael Finley towards him, where previously they seemed to be in a zone defense on LeBron's side of the lane. LeBron makes it to the basket, but doesn't attempt a shot, as Fabricio Oberto, who was previously guarding Ilgauskas on the other side of the lane, gets in front of him. With Ilgauskas free however, LeBron passes it to him for an easy dunk. This is clearly a very good play by LeBron, though he's helped a bit by Oberto abandoning Ilgauskas when Duncan and Finley seem like they still could've disrupted any scoring attempt by LeBron. Still, that's likely just a testament to how feared LeBron was as a finisher. A-

2. Kobe slowly moves towards the three-point line while being guarded by James Posey. Meanwhile, Pau Gasol is hovering near the paint, with Kendrick Perkins, Rondo, and P.J. Brown sort of forming a triangle around him while also watching out for other players. All three players point to Gasol, obviously concerned about how Kobe might connect with him, but their eyes seem focused on the latter. I could be wrong, but Kobe seems to pass overhead to Pau as soon as he sees Rondo look away at Pau towards him for a second. Unfortunately Pau is unable to capitalize on getting the ball so close to the basket, but that's not Kobe's fault. Even if I'm not misinterpreting Rondo's part in this, this was still a great pass and Kobe was clearly drawing a lot of mental attention. B+

3. Seems like a pretty standard pick and roll. Hakeem moves in front of Ewing while Maxwell tries to beat Starks, helping create an opening for Maxwell to drive into the paint. Hakeem doesn't seem to play much more of a part in the play, other than Charles Oakley seeming to be wary of Hakeem being so close to the lane, and possibly backing up more than he would otherwise, helping Maxwell score. B-

[eminence]

1) Should start this one a couple seconds earlier, the double on Z (+dig from Parker) sets it off, Lebron with a strong attack on a closing Duncan, proper read and well executed, dodged the help easily. The dump to Z was competent but not inspirational. Strong play from LeBron. I would only expect to see this regularly from guys I think of as very good or better wing creators. Easily the highest grade of the 3 posted imo.

2) Very meh on this one, late in the clock, fairly telegraphed, not much zip and a bit off target. Need a certain level of size/confidence to attempt the pass at all, but after that there's nothing really stand out here. Idea is fine, execution was not good. It strikes me as a disappointing play from a playmaker with decent vision.

3) Bad defense from Ewing there, took himself completely out of the play. I'll give this one an incomplete because I think it's strongly dependent on how you rate Maxwell as a passer (and I haven't watched enough Maxwell to confidently do so). The more impressive of passer you rate Maxwell the more understandable it is for Oakley to sag and try to stick the perfect balance (failing, obviously), if you rate Maxwell as a poor passer then it's more impressive for Hakeem's gravity. It does strike me as pretty standard play from most big men with decent hands/finishing and not a stand out.

[Doctor MJ]

Rank the three plays below in terms of creation/playmaking value

Play 1: Lebron dribble+dump, 2007 Finals
https://youtu.be/5wV4upjIN_g?t=92
Play 2: Kobe pass, 2008 Finals:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1__JAMCvoaHbJUyuuSy5MvbHOL1zYbEPB/view?usp=sharing
Play 3: Hakeem roll, 1994 Finals
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13GyFE-Fd_ONgEsRbARhr-4IO3s5Z91A1/view?usp=sharing

This is an interesting concept for a thread. I hope it can help us understand things better. I'll go:

1. LeBron. This was a situation where the teammate ended up with an incredibly easy bucket by being by the basket. To a degree, you could say that's the gold standard for playmaking value. Other thing to note:

a) obviously the pass itself was not the hard part for LeBron here, but from a playmaking-value perspective, we shouldn't be biased toward pass-difficulty.

b) the passes and motion prior to when LeBron got the ball had everything to do with why they were so vulnerable to be exploited in this way.

c) while good passing around the court causing defenses to get tangled up - that's part of the purpose - when a defense ends up as distorted as this one did, you can question whether opponent strength/mistakes should be factored in.

2. Hakeem. Outstanding example of gravitational effect relating to Hakeem here as we see the defender let an easy bucket happen because he's so afraid of the pass to Hakeem. Note:

a) watching the way those Knicks - a celebrated defensive team - got flummoxed by the pick & roll here is really something. Ewing ends up beyond the 3 point guarding no one as the play is decided on the interior.

b) clearly, generally, a player driving to the basket to score is doing more than a guy who just gets the ball next to it.

3. Kobe. Well, this gets into how we talk about creation in the context of a failed play.

Let's start by thinking about from the coach's perspective. The coach presumably can identify who made the mistake, when there's a mistake, and thus allocate blame accordingly.

Another perspective would be comparing what the recipient (Gasol) was able to do with the pass to what some other standard would have done with it.

There are challenges with both approaches though. How certain can we be in identifying the mistake? Why do we care what some other player would have been able to do in Gasol's place when it was Gasol who was being passed to?

When we look at this play, let me set the context like this:

Kobe released the ball with 9.5 seconds on the clock.
Gasol caught the ball with 8.6 seconds on the clock.

If the pass was the perfect thing to do - perfectly done - assuming omniscience from Kobe, and it was Gasol's error that screwed it up, I'd argue that the error happened in this 0.9 second interval, because one he catches the ball the way he catches the ball, the idea of the attack is doomed with the double team arriving before Gasol can shoot. (Note that Gasol might have been able to salvage the possession with the right pass to another teammate, but it was also quite late in the shot clock and I think clearly both Kobe & Gasol expected Gasol to shoot it himself.)

So then, the question becomes: Why did Gasol catch it like he did?

Did he not position himself where he was supposed to?
Did the ball not go where it should have given where he was? Is that why he had to jump, and jump awkwardly for it?
Was he not thinking about the possibility of catching and shooting mid-air without touching the ground? If not, why not?

And this is where it'd be really nice to have an insider coach's perspective handy.

Finally, let's point out:

The defense really doesn't seem contorted here the way they end up with the other two plays. If you freeze it when Kobe makes the pass, you see the Celtic defenders very much looking like they are "on a string" whose "tension" is preventing them from - say - all gravitating toward Kobe. This was of course a paradigm shifting defense, and knowing what we know about it I might suggest the right move there isn't to pass it to the place where the defenders are pointing.

And continuing from a modern perspective, if you replace Kobe with Steph Curry or Dame Lillard...or Caitlin Clark, and look at that 9.5 second moment, you clearly think "Oh man, I can't believe the left the shooter wide open for a 3!", but of course back then, the Celtics could gamble like this without it even really being a "gamble".