WAS/BKN/NOP with a value question

[Texas Chuck]

So here's the nuts and bolts of the deal:

Wiz trade: Kuzma/Bagley( or Holmes)
Wiz get: Ben Simmons

Nets trade: Simmons/worst 25 1st (currently 25)
Nets get: BI

Pels trade: BI
Pels get: Kuzma/Bagley(Holmes)/worst 25 1st

So this is valuing Kuzma as roughly neutral. I know the Wizards wanted a lot for Kuz last deadline(we know Dallas tried for him before pivoting to PJ and the Wizards wanted more) But he's been terrible this year and he's not really a part of the next good Wizards team so how willing are they to just clear the money? But that's my reason for the Wiz, just clear the money. I also still kinda believe in Ben so I don't hate a test drive, but probably buy him out.

Nets could wait and just offer a contract in FA obviously. And I know some of their fans here are convinced they can't tank. But Pels managed to lose a ton of games with BI and of course he's hurt now. This is a cheap price for a test drive before committing a big money deal. Seems worth your worst 1st.

Pels need a guy who can provide some offense and they need it on a budget. Kuz has been terrible, but if he returns to last year's form he's not terrible as your 3rd option on a contract they can afford. Pick up a small asset in the process.


So really unsure on my values here. But this was my best guess.

[daoneandonly]

As someone who regularly watches Wizards games, I don't think either of those combinations warrant any expiring Ben Simmons

Kuzma is an empty stat diva, Holmes nor Bagley have much value on their respective deals

[Texas Chuck]

As someone who regularly watches Wizards games, I don't think either of those combinations warrant any expiring Ben Simmons

Kuzma is an empty stat diva, Holmes nor Bagley have much value on their respective deals

So you have Washington owing value then not needing it?

[winforlose]

So here's the nuts and bolts of the deal:

Wiz trade: Kuzma/Bagley( or Holmes)
Wiz get: Ben Simmons

Nets trade: Simmons/worst 25 1st (currently 25)
Nets get: BI

Pels trade: BI
Pels get: Kuzma/Bagley(Holmes)/worst 25 1st

So this is valuing Kuzma as roughly neutral. I know the Wizards wanted a lot for Kuz last deadline(we know Dallas tried for him before pivoting to PJ and the Wizards wanted more) But he's been terrible this year and he's not really a part of the next good Wizards team so how willing are they to just clear the money? But that's my reason for the Wiz, just clear the money. I also still kinda believe in Ben so I don't hate a test drive, but probably buy him out.

Nets could wait and just offer a contract in FA obviously. And I know some of their fans here are convinced they can't tank. But Pels managed to lose a ton of games with BI and of course he's hurt now. This is a cheap price for a test drive before committing a big money deal. Seems worth your worst 1st.

Pels need a guy who can provide some offense and they need it on a budget. Kuz has been terrible, but if he returns to last year's form he's not terrible as your 3rd option on a contract they can afford. Pick up a small asset in the process.


So really unsure on my values here. But this was my best guess.

I just don’t see why any of the teams make this trade? The Nets wanting BI when they know he is gonna want huge money assumes they plan to win something, but at 10-16 are they hoping BI helps them make a run? If not, wouldn’t they rather have the pick?

Why do the Wiz want out of the Kuzma money? They can use it to either take on a bad deal and further the tank, or use it as matching to get someone they want. I don’t know what your vision is for them long term, but I could see this as backfiring in a number of ways.

The Pels season is over. If they play their cards right they can keep BI cheap, but only if they retain his bird rights and no one wants to pay him. This makes them lose that chance without substantial improvement. Also, if BI comes off their books they can use the space more than the players listed.

End of the day it isn’t that the trades are bad per se, but rather the teams don’t gain anything by doing them.

[OutsidetheNBA]

On Kuzma -- yeah, I think of him as about neutral value or perhaps very slightly positive value. E.g. an expiring + a 2nd. Nothing more.

On this trade -- agree with winforlose, don't see the path here for the Nets. I like Ingram more than most, but the Nets are a long way from being in a position to pay him.

[GatherStepGuru]

I dont see why WAS is in this deal, and idk if the Nets can get any value out of Simmons outside of trading him to a team like the Lakers that might want to clear up considerable space next summer to make a run at someone else.

Kuzma isnt a top option, but hes worth a bit more than an expiring Simmons and nothing else, especially with no picks attached. He has a value contract, and could fill in as a 4/5th starter for quite a few teams and give you at least 13-15 a night. I dont think WAS is in any rush to get off his contract, or any vet they currently have; they're more likely vetting offers on the table for a packages they like, which would some combo of players and picks.

[daoneandonly]

As someone who regularly watches Wizards games, I don't think either of those combinations warrant any expiring Ben Simmons

Kuzma is an empty stat diva, Holmes nor Bagley have much value on their respective deals

So you have Washington owing value then not needing it?

I do. They should be ecstatic to get out from under Kuzma and either of those bigs.

[mhd]

As someone who regularly watches Wizards games, I don't think either of those combinations warrant any expiring Ben Simmons

Kuzma is an empty stat diva, Holmes nor Bagley have much value on their respective deals

So you have Washington owing value then not needing it?

I do. They should be ecstatic to get out from under Kuzma and either of those bigs.

Why are the Wizards desperate to get rid of Bagley & Holmes? Bagley is expiring and Holmes has only 250k guaranteed in his 13 million expiring for next season (which makes him very tradable in the future, cut for only 250k, or kept to reach the 90% CBA requirement).

Regarding Kuzma, unless the Wiz get some draft compensation, they might as well keep his declining salary contract. They are not wanting to compete next season either as the Knicks own their 1st rounder that is top 8 protected.

[brackdan70]

The value seems pretty close to me.
Wizards are getting off some future Salary.

I could see the Wizards balking at not getting anything really positive for Kuzma

[jbk1234]

The Wizards get cut out here. There's nothing they're giving the Pels shoukd want. The Pels look at a half a season of Simmons and Zion in the floor together before making a decision on both of them this summer.

[flranger]

Reading this confirms to me that Ingram is going to be pissed he left whatever the Pels last contract offer on the table after this summer

[DarkXaero]

I think we've been over the Nets issue with BI, you discuss it in your post. This board simultaneously overvalues firsts but then also throws them away in a trade like this, just so Nets (who are supposed to tank/lose games) can "test drive" pending unrestricted FA Brandon Ingram (Nets have the most cap space in the league next summer and can sign him outright for free). It doesn't make sense.

[Texas Chuck]

oh I get how some fans don't understand the value in having a guy in the building to see how they fit before investing nearly $200M in them. But teams understand this.

Now maybe BI is wrong for Brooklyn. But the concept is sound, 100%. I can't help those who think this is throwing away "overvalued assets".

[drchaos]

I think we've been over the Nets issue with BI, you discuss it in your post. This board simultaneously overvalues firsts but then also throws them away in a trade like this, just so Nets (who are supposed to tank/lose games) can "test drive" pending unrestricted FA Brandon Ingram (Nets have the most cap space in the league next summer and can sign him outright for free). It doesn't make sense.

If the Nets were buyers for a guy like Ingram they wouldn't have been sellers on Schroeder.

No interest from Brooklyn on this one.

[louc1970]

I think we've been over the Nets issue with BI, you discuss it in your post. This board simultaneously overvalues firsts but then also throws them away in a trade like this, just so Nets (who are supposed to tank/lose games) can "test drive" pending unrestricted FA Brandon Ingram (Nets have the most cap space in the league next summer and can sign him outright for free). It doesn't make sense.

You sign Ingram next year and you are bringing him on as a #1 option. Current salary for next year is $75M. Add a $40M Ingram, resigning Thomas near $20-25M, resigning Sharpe at $7-10M and you eat up a lot of cap room.

You make the necessary trade and start the resigning of Ingram with a payroll closer to $40M and you have money for 2 max deals.

It depends on how you see Ingram - as a first or second option. Personally, he is a second at best.

[oldncreaky]

I think we've been over the Nets issue with BI, you discuss it in your post. This board simultaneously overvalues firsts but then also throws them away in a trade like this, just so Nets (who are supposed to tank/lose games) can "test drive" pending unrestricted FA Brandon Ingram (Nets have the most cap space in the league next summer and can sign him outright for free). It doesn't make sense.

You sign Ingram next year and you are bringing him on as a #1 option. Current salary for next year is $75M. Add a $40M Ingram, resigning Thomas near $20-25M, resigning Sharpe at $7-10M and you eat up a lot of cap room.

You make the necessary trade and start the resigning of Ingram with a payroll closer to $40M and you have money for 2 max deals.

It depends on how you see Ingram - as a first or second option. Personally, he is a second at best.

Interesting points

I looked at BRKs' cap sheet for next year. Highlights
- $76.3M on active roster for 8 players
- $77M in practical cap space, not including cap holds for Thomas ($12.1M) and Sharpe ($12M)
- they will need to sign players to roughly $62M in salary by opening night to get to the 90% salary floor

They'll have room for a one max FA, but if they can't attract one, they'll struggle to get to the salary floor, and probably hand out some questionable contracts/extensions to reach the $62M they must spend. Getting Ingram makes the salary floor a non-issue -- but he might get signed to a contract that is immediately negative value

[ConSarnit]

oh I get how some fans don't understand the value in having a guy in the building to see how they fit before investing nearly $200M in them. But teams understand this.

Now maybe BI is wrong for Brooklyn. But the concept is sound, 100%. I can't help those who think this is throwing away "overvalued assets".

I'm still not seeing how the idea is sound. The Nets are going to tank next year as well. They didn't trade for their '25 and '26 1sts back to be a middling team (see: BKN getting off of Schroder 25 games into the season because they were winning too much). So they test drive Ingram this year, sign him and waste another year? That doesn't make sense.

[ConSarnit]

I think we've been over the Nets issue with BI, you discuss it in your post. This board simultaneously overvalues firsts but then also throws them away in a trade like this, just so Nets (who are supposed to tank/lose games) can "test drive" pending unrestricted FA Brandon Ingram (Nets have the most cap space in the league next summer and can sign him outright for free). It doesn't make sense.

You sign Ingram next year and you are bringing him on as a #1 option. Current salary for next year is $75M. Add a $40M Ingram, resigning Thomas near $20-25M, resigning Sharpe at $7-10M and you eat up a lot of cap room.

You make the necessary trade and start the resigning of Ingram with a payroll closer to $40M and you have money for 2 max deals.

It depends on how you see Ingram - as a first or second option. Personally, he is a second at best.

Interesting points

I looked at BRKs' cap sheet for next year. Highlights
- $76.3M on active roster for 8 players
- $77M in practical cap space, not including cap holds for Thomas ($12.1M) and Sharpe ($12M)
- they will need to sign players to roughly $62M in salary by opening night to get to the 90% salary floor

They'll have room for a one max FA, but if they can't attract one, they'll struggle to get to the salary floor, and probably hand out some questionable contracts/extensions to reach the $62M they must spend. Getting Ingram makes the salary floor a non-issue -- but he might get signed to a contract that is immediately negative value

To me, Ingram is not the guy you bring in the door first. Let's say the Nets are looking to go the free agency route again. Their sights have to be higher than Ingram right? If you have Ingram taking up $40m in cap it becomes tougher to clear space for the better guys you want to sign. Ingram is the type of guy you bring in last where you can go above the cap. Now this obviously means it might not be Ingram specifically but an Ingram level player (think GSW bringing in Wiggins). If I'm the Nets looking to hit the salary floor I'm looking for salary dumps or giving guys the Bruce Brown special.

[Texas Chuck]

oh I get how some fans don't understand the value in having a guy in the building to see how they fit before investing nearly $200M in them. But teams understand this.

Now maybe BI is wrong for Brooklyn. But the concept is sound, 100%. I can't help those who think this is throwing away "overvalued assets".

I'm still not seeing how the idea is sound. The Nets are going to tank next year as well. They didn't trade for their '25 and '26 1sts back to be a middling team (see: BKN getting off of Schroder 25 games into the season because they were winning too much). So they test drive Ingram this year, sign him and waste another year? That doesn't make sense.

If the argument is BI is a bad target for them, cool. Not the point I'm making it what you are quoting there. There I am simply saying before investing a huge amount of money in a player who isn't a no-brainer, spending a middling asset to have 40 games to test it out isn't a crazy idea.

BI specifically may be a terrible idea. But I was simply addressing a reason given for not making the trade that I disagree with.