Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon

[DCZards]

Prospect development, that dude we signed to a 10 day that suddenly looked vaguely competent, how long are we ----ed if we get hosed in this lottery.

Maybe we should be talking more about Justin Champagnie. Dude just knows how to play…on both ends of the court. Not a star but a keeper for sure.

Props to PIF for being the first to hype Champagnie. I’m waiting for him to launch a thread in Justin’s honor.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

Sheesh!!
What is the point of arguing about whether Deni is a good player or not? Of course he's a good player; he just got off to a slow start this year.

OTOH, it's because he's a good player that we got a lot for him in a trade. We got Bub Carrington, a lottery pick w/ a ton of upside. We got Malcolm Brogdon, a terrific veteran who should have value at the deadline. We got a R1 pick in 2029. How high? We don't know -- but it could be somewhere in the middle of R1. We also got a R2 pick in 2028 -- lot of really good players get picked in R2. & we got another R2 pick in 2030.

Does that mean the trade will turn out to be a one-sided victory for the Wizards? Of course not! Not for Portland either. That said, I would have made that trade, no question about it, just as Will Dawkins did. It was the right decision, IMO.

When the trade is spelled out like this it gets even worse. 2028 and 20230 2nd round picks got 2-3 sentences...

Dawkins got most of the board in a spell.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

You know, I'm still really not sure where either of you guys stand on this. Let's debate it for another 37 pages, I think if we can get close to 40 more pages, I may be able to figure out the nuances of your individual takes on this. "May," being the operative word. Please, go on.

How many more times 3-4 folks going to come to the discussion and make the same complaint? Is anyone forcing you to click on this thread?

Hint: You don't have to click. It'll be okay.

[DCZards]

I expect the 2029 FRP pick that the Zards received in the Deni trade to be used by 2026…either to move up in the draft or for another #1 pick.

Note: OKC has 3 FRPs next year. IJS.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

Sorry I don't agree. PIF has made the same post about trading back in the lottery over a thousand times. We're all repeating ourselves at this point.

I'll give credit where due, nailed it here.

[The Consiglieri]

You know, I'm still really not sure where either of you guys stand on this. Let's debate it for another 37 pages, I think if we can get close to 40 more pages, I may be able to figure out the nuances of your individual takes on this. "May," being the operative word. Please, go on.

How many more times 3-4 folks going to come to the discussion and make the same complaint? Is anyone forcing you to click on this thread?

Hint: You don't have to click. It'll be okay.

3 more because I'm posting a third time on it. I'm interested in analyzing the Deni trade from the standpoint of long term return, and from long term cost of letting him go. I'm not interested in banning myself from threads because 2 people want to argue: "Deni's Awesome/Deni Sucks" and nothing else for six months straight. That, adds nothing, there is more to this then whether Deni is awesome, sucks, or something inbetween, there were a lot more components to the deal, and consequences to the deal than just the endless circle ---- of stupidity that is that back and forth. I'd love to hear about the other angles, and far less about this.

I get your stance too. I spent six months arguing with Jayden fans on extremeskins that Drake Maye made more sense for an infinite supply of reasons, only for extremeskins to implode just as I would have at least finally won that stupid argument lol. I get it. We spent January-October arguing that crap only for the site to go bellyup after 22 years or so right before Drake dropped some haymakers on my guy Jayden (even though I'm a Drake guy, I'm a redskins fan first). So I get it. And in fiarness, that argument on extremeskins went on for hundreds of pages, not a couple of dozen.

It's just there was a ton to the argument of Jayden vs Maye vs Caleb as it turns out. With this trade, all the argument about is apparently Deni's Deni-ness, when the trade involves a great deal more (picks, players,impending FA vet to trade before the deadline, opening up minutes etc), I'd love to hear about the other angles and not just Deni. I get that the trade came as a shock to people, the fact that people called me crazy back last winter when I said I thought he might be traded in '24-'26 plays into that, but we need to talk about more than just the relative efficacy of his talent as a part of the build or not, and all we're talking about is him.

[The Consiglieri]

Prospect development, that dude we signed to a 10 day that suddenly looked vaguely competent, how long are we ----ed if we get hosed in this lottery.

Maybe we should be talking more about Justin Champagnie. Dude just knows how to play…on both ends of the court. Not a star but a keeper for sure.

Props to PIF for being the first to hype Champagnie. I’m waiting for him to launch a thread in Justin’s honor.

No doubt, certainly in some thread. 95% chance its fools gold, but every once in a while, someone proves all they needed was "minutes" and a legit leash for the up and downs of sample size to prove they belonged, and maybe that's whats happening with him. Or maybe it's just a LaBradford Smith moment. But I'd love to hear people knowledgeable about him as a prospect, share their thoughts.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Trading back in the draft always sounds great, until you have to find a team that wants to move up and actually give you something worth doing it. Plus, in the NBA it's much harder to get value for trading back than in the NFL.

The year the Wizards drafted Kwame first, they should have traded back.

Shane Battier, Zach Randolph, and Troy Murphy were in that draft. So was Tyson Chandler.

[AFM]

I never said Deni sucks though. If I was a rebuilding team, would I trade all those picks for him? Hell no.

[Benjammin]

Trading back in the draft always sounds great, until you have to find a team that wants to move up and actually give you something worth doing it. Plus, in the NBA it's much harder to get value for trading back than in the NFL.

The year the Wizards drafted Kwame first, they should have traded back.

Shane Battier, Zach Randolph, and Troy Murphy were in that draft. So was Tyson Chandler.

No, they actually had a trade for Elton Brand on the table but MJ probably didn't like a Duke guy. Brand was a beast, especially when he was young.

Sent from my Pixel 9 Pro XL using Tapatalk

[The Consiglieri]

Trading back in the draft always sounds great, until you have to find a team that wants to move up and actually give you something worth doing it. Plus, in the NBA it's much harder to get value for trading back than in the NFL.

The year the Wizards drafted Kwame first, they should have traded back.

Shane Battier, Zach Randolph, and Troy Murphy were in that draft. So was Tyson Chandler.

In fairness, that was a draft where they thought 3 big dudes were the big 3, Kwame, and those big dudes I think the Bulls took who ended up being bleh (all 3 of them really).

[Kanyewest]

Trading back in the draft always sounds great, until you have to find a team that wants to move up and actually give you something worth doing it. Plus, in the NBA it's much harder to get value for trading back than in the NFL.

The year the Wizards drafted Kwame first, they should have traded back.

Shane Battier, Zach Randolph, and Troy Murphy were in that draft. So was Tyson Chandler.

No, they actually had a trade for Elton Brand on the table but MJ probably didn't like a Duke guy. Brand was a beast, especially when he was young.

Sent from my Pixel 9 Pro XL using Tapatalk

I remember hearing that Jordan also wanted Jamal Crawford in the deal - Jordan doing a trade with the Bulls also was tough because of their bad blood.

[The Consiglieri]

I never said Deni sucks though. If I was a rebuilding team, would I trade all those picks for him? Hell no.

Its hyperbole to summarize the multi-page bitchfest that's been going back and forth. You both have legit arguments to back your take, but they're aren't any new crabs to be found hiding under the rocks, the arguments are already clearly layed out and the back and forth continuing strikes me as pointless. I get your view. I get his. We won't have a clear answer for a few years. In terms of good process/best practices, my verdict last summer was that it was an underpay because it was a first in a ---- draft where firsts were cheap, a first a billion years from now is whatever, 2nds are largely worthless, and Brogdon was two years past his sell by date/IR date.

Now 6 months later, it looks like it may be a push, with the benefit of hindsight. The fact that it included zero blue chip zone picks struck me was a "light" offer, the fact that there were two random firsts, one of which was definitely not top 10, was not a selling point to me.

At this point, Bub is making me think randomness/scouting may have it be a push, but I think in terms of process, it was subpar.

Back when I was arguing he might be traded last winter, and spring, my reasoning was that the build would basically waste the value of his epic cheap contract, and he'd be due for a new one by the time we were contending, so he should be a spun out for a blue chip pick in '25 or '26, but not in the crap '24 class (which we didn't even get a top 10 pick from), which is why I was disappointed, considering the value of his contract, the term, and his youth and versatility, I expected top 10 value, and it didnt come. I still view it at an underweight offer, but looks like we might win it anyway and I think it speaks well to management that they also understood the time lines involved, the value, and pulled the trigger to add young prospects/assets and to help the tank in the process, from that perspective, it was totally sound in my view, just the goodies back that I was disappointed in.

[DCZards]

Trading back in the draft always sounds great, until you have to find a team that wants to move up and actually give you something worth doing it. Plus, in the NBA it's much harder to get value for trading back than in the NFL.

The year the Wizards drafted Kwame first, they should have traded back.

Shane Battier, Zach Randolph, and Troy Murphy were in that draft. So was Tyson Chandler.

In fairness, that was a draft where they thought 3 big dudes were the big 3, Kwame, and those big dudes I think the Bulls took who ended up being bleh (all 3 of them really).

Tyson Chandler was far from bleh. Had a 18 yr NBA career, was a Defensive Player of the Year, made an all-NBA third team, was a two-time all star, and was a key piece on the 2011 Mavs championship team.

[payitforward]

The year the Wizards drafted Kwame first, they should have traded back.

Shane Battier, Zach Randolph, and Troy Murphy were in that draft. So was Tyson Chandler.

In fairness, that was a draft where they thought 3 big dudes were the big 3, Kwame, and those big dudes I think the Bulls took who ended up being bleh (all 3 of them really).

Tyson Chandler was far from bleh. Had a 18 yr NBA career, was a Defensive Player of the Year, made an all-NBA third team, was a two-time all star, and was a key piece on the 2011 Mavs championship team.

Pau Gasol went #3 -- right after Chandler. I wouldn't call him "bleh"!

The 4th pick that year was Eddy Curry -- he wasn't "bleh" either. He was absolutely terrible.

OTOH, a few pretty good players went in R2 that year: 3 of them combined for over 58,000 minutes. Of course, as we all know, "R2 doesn't matter," so who cares about Gilbert Arenas, Mehmet Okur & Earl Watson.

[DCZards]

In fairness, that was a draft where they thought 3 big dudes were the big 3, Kwame, and those big dudes I think the Bulls took who ended up being bleh (all 3 of them really).

Tyson Chandler was far from bleh. Had a 18 yr NBA career, was a Defensive Player of the Year, made an all-NBA third team, was a two-time all star, and was a key piece on the 2011 Mavs championship team.

Pau Gasol went #3 -- right after Chandler. I wouldn't call him "bleh"!

The 4th pick that year was Eddy Curry -- he wasn't "bleh" either. He was absolutely terrible.

OTOH, a few pretty good players went in R2 that year: 3 of them combined for over 58,000 minutes. Of course, as we all know, "R2 doesn't matter," so who cares about Gilbert Arenas, Mehmet Okur & Earl Watson.

Totally forgot that Gasol was the third pick in that draft. For some reason, I thought Curry was the third pick. Here's a few first round picks from that draft who went on to have good careers:
Jason Richardson
Shane Battier
Joe Johnson
Tony Parker
Zach Randolph
Richard Jefferson

[The Consiglieri]

The year the Wizards drafted Kwame first, they should have traded back.

Shane Battier, Zach Randolph, and Troy Murphy were in that draft. So was Tyson Chandler.

In fairness, that was a draft where they thought 3 big dudes were the big 3, Kwame, and those big dudes I think the Bulls took who ended up being bleh (all 3 of them really).

Tyson Chandler was far from bleh. Had a 18 yr NBA career, was a Defensive Player of the Year, made an all-NBA third team, was a two-time all star, and was a key piece on the 2011 Mavs championship team.

He, the other dude and Kwame were the tier 1 superstars in waiting and none of them became what was hoped. I get that he became a legit pro which Curry and Kwame totally didn't, and he had some quality seasons, but he never turned into anything remotely like a franchise player.

[DCZards]

In fairness, that was a draft where they thought 3 big dudes were the big 3, Kwame, and those big dudes I think the Bulls took who ended up being bleh (all 3 of them really).

Tyson Chandler was far from bleh. Had a 18 yr NBA career, was a Defensive Player of the Year, made an all-NBA third team, was a two-time all star, and was a key piece on the 2011 Mavs championship team.

He, the other dude and Kwame were the tier 1 superstars in waiting and none of them became what was hoped. I get that he became a legit pro which Curry and Kwame totally didn't, and he had some quality seasons, but he never turned into anything remotely like a franchise player.

Maybe not a franchise player but I think we can agree that Chandler shouldn't be lumped in with Kwame and Curry as "bleh."

BTW, very few NBA become superstars or franchise players...even when they are picked near the top of the draft.

[doclinkin]

…
We won't have a clear answer for a few years. In terms of good process/best practices, my verdict last summer was that it was an underpay because it was a first in a ---- draft where firsts were cheap, a first a billion years from now is whatever, 2nds are largely worthless, and Brogdon was two years past his sell by date/IR date.

Are people really complaining that the front office is taking a long view? Teams devalue their future draft picks. But that’s how dynasty teams are built. And in this CBA smart draft picks look to be the only way to refresh and renew a team that is playing well. OKC is the model. Take on bad contracts for future picks. A team that inks players to bad contracts and has to spend to dump them will probably go through cycles of bad play. Those picks will be valuable when they come due.

That said the FO all along was saying they didnt see this as a weak draft but a deep one. That there may not have been franchise talent at the top but there were intriguing players throughout the first round. They made it clear all year they were seeking multiple 1st round picks. And then they actually got them.

If firsts were cheap then they were smart to snatch an undervalued asset. It says nothing about the actual value of the players. Which remains to be seen. Bub looks good. But there are others both ahead and behind him who look like they could pay off.

All along to me it looked like this draft was deep in lead guards. Castle. McCain. Devin Carter. Dillingham. Topić. Collier. Bub. Kolek. Etc.

For a team relying on a flailing Jordan Poole and a free agent Tyus Jones, it’s a good thing to have potential replacements waiting in the wings. Sounds like Bub was the guy they really wanted. But it could have been they’d be happy with any of the 4 taken before him. Sounds to me once they met the kid though they were sold that he was their guy and were willing to do what they had to to get him.

So give them full credit. They made a decisive move and made it work.

[doclinkin]

Now 6 months later, it looks like it may be a push, with the benefit of hindsight. The fact that it included zero blue chip zone picks struck me was a "light" offer, the fact that there were two random firsts, one of which was definitely not top 10, was not a selling point to me.

At this point, Bub is making me think randomness/scouting may have it be a push, but I think in terms of process, it was subpar.

Back when I was arguing he might be traded last winter, and spring, my reasoning was that the build would basically waste the value of his epic cheap contract, and he'd be due for a new one by the time we were contending, so he should be a spun out for a blue chip pick in '25 or '26, but not in the crap '24 class (which we didn't even get a top 10 pick from), which is why I was disappointed, considering the value of his contract, the term, and his youth and versatility, I expected top 10 value, and it didnt come. I still view it at an underweight offer, but looks like we might win it anyway and I think it speaks well to management that they also understood the time lines involved, the value, and pulled the trigger to add young prospects/assets and to help the tank in the process, from that perspective, it was totally sound in my view, just the goodies back that I was disappointed in.

Paradoxically in the new CBA cheap contracts have dubious value though. Overcapped teams in the 2nd apron can’t consolidate contracts in a 2-for-1 trade and the 90% rule says you have to pay someone or lose out on the tax rebate to the tune of millions in free cash. It is helpful to have a few big money guys up top who are paid what they are worth.

Not to say you want to spend stupid money. It’s a good problem to have. Just saying due to Deni’s cheap contract it may make it impossible to really get his true value in returning players. He’s worth more than he’s paid.

Funny when fans sound sorta sour that the front office outsmarted them. It wasn’t random chance. It proved not to be underweight. If a better deal was out there we would have taken it. Pundits were surprised we got as much as we did. If it’s already a push and we haven’t yet cashed in 4/5ths of the deal then these guys did a damn good job.

Especially if they scout the next picks as well as Bub. Or I dunno consistently get ‘random’ly lucky. Whichever you want to believe.