For Years People on here said...

[Walt Cronkite]

Well it certainly isn't going well, I feel like this has been the most injury riddled team in team history - and players who don't normally get injured are injured like Miles Bridges and Tre Mann

You don't think making sure guys don't come back until they are 100% ready to go and then brought back slowly is intentional to see what assets exist and not do any long term damage in a season of evaluation? None of this season feels like the Mark issue last year, Hayward's every injury, etc. We can disagree obviously, it just looks very different to me by how they are handling things and I don't think I'm particularly optimistic.

[amcoolio]

Well it certainly isn't going well, I feel like this has been the most injury riddled team in team history - and players who don't normally get injured are injured like Miles Bridges and Tre Mann

You don't think making sure guys don't come back until they are 100% ready to go and then brought back slowly is intentional to see what assets exist and not do any long term damage in a season of evaluation? None of this season feels like the Mark issue last year, Hayward's every injury, etc. We can disagree obviously, it just looks very different to me by how they are handling things and I don't think I'm particularly optimistic.

I do think they are trying harder than the previous regime. But I think they are in over their head and ultimately nothing is changing over the next few seasons.

[Walt Cronkite]

doesnt matter in the scope we are talking about here. these guys are not particularly well capitalized AND they don't know ball. Ishbia has $10 billion and knows ball. Ballmer has infinite money. These are the guys are owners are competing against, if you subscribe to the theory that they actually care about winning. They aren't going to be able to hang. But it doesn't matter because thats not why they are in it

Lets assume this is a money making venture for ownership, because I think it is, because it's a business. You buy the Hornets to either move them or because you see a market that will (or at least did) support the team once you give them a reason to support the team.
The Hurricanes were on a long stretch of bad seasons and there was worry of relocation. Raleigh has been very supportive once the team started to suck less. Isn't there an incentive to improve, so you can make more money? Is your argument that they want to be bad and are only investing in facilities/organization as a rouse? I don't understand and you keep shifting whatever point you are attempting to make about why they are sucky owners. Does an owner need to not be a capitalist? Does an owner need to know hoops? Does an owner need to be as wealthy as Ballmer or bust?

Still waiting for the list of owners that have made their living looking out for the little guy. Is it a Kroenke? Wyc Grousbeck is doing it for the love of the game?

[Walt Cronkite]

I do think they are trying harder than the previous regime. But I think they are in over their head and ultimately nothing is changing over the next few seasons.

I don't know that you are wrong. What would be change over the next few seasons that you would view as a pleasant surprise or success?

[KembaWalker]

doesnt matter in the scope we are talking about here. these guys are not particularly well capitalized AND they don't know ball. Ishbia has $10 billion and knows ball. Ballmer has infinite money. These are the guys are owners are competing against, if you subscribe to the theory that they actually care about winning. They aren't going to be able to hang. But it doesn't matter because thats not why they are in it

Lets assume this is a money making venture for ownership, because I think it is, because it's a business. You buy the Hornets to either move them or because you see a market that will (or at least did) support the team once you give them a reason to support the team.
The Hurricanes were on a long stretch of bad seasons and there was worry of relocation. Raleigh has been very supportive once the team started to suck less. Isn't there an incentive to improve, so you can make more money? Is your argument that they want to be bad and are only investing in facilities/organization as a rouse? I don't understand and you keep shifting whatever point you are attempting to make about why they are sucky owners. Does an owner need to not be a capitalist? Does an owner need to know hoops? Does an owner need to be as wealthy as Ballmer or bust?

Still waiting for the list of owners that have made their living looking out for the little guy. Is it a Kroenke? Wyc Grousbeck is doing it for the love of the game?

i haven't shifted my point on this one bit. they don't need a good team to make money. sure, they'd probably prefer to have a good team and there are situations where it would probably make them more money to have a good team , if they happened to stumble into it. but they can make plenty of money from leeching off Charlotte taxpayers and NBA revenue sharing and luxury tax payouts, even in a mostly empty arena. This isn't the NHL where a team could literally just fold like the Coyotes. The league is very healthy and can tolerate some deadweight franchises, if they play along and take their shellackings and hand over their good players to Boston and LA when asked to do so, even better. One of those requests will be coming this teams way very soon, so buckle up

[Walt Cronkite]

Do you have any evidence for your conspiracy?

You are obviously more informed on Charlotte's owner's background dealings than I am. I just want to understand why the new owners are destined to do what you are saying they are destined to do. It's definitely from the MJ playbook, too, right, so I assume there is an explanation for why they haven't followed the MJ "business as usual" plan. Why build facilities if they don't need to? Why hire so many new people?

[KembaWalker]

Do you have any evidence for your conspiracy?

You are obviously more informed on Charlotte's owner's background dealings than I am. I just want to understand why the new owners are destined to do what you are saying they are destined to do. It's definitely from the MJ playbook, too, right, so I assume there is an explanation for why they haven't followed the MJ "business as usual" plan. Why build facilities if they don't need to? Why hire so many new people?

Building facilities on taxpayer dime on 10 dollar a year 100 year leases from the city and 0% interest league sourced credit is good for them. The current practice facility plans arent even some new ownership initiative, they were planning this stuff during covid, I'm pretty sure it first went public in 2022

[SWedd523]

I mean... that's not a good thing given the pathetic lack of success in that time frame. other teams have torn down, rebuilt, torn down, rebuilt, and seen more success in the same time Charlotte has been on double secret tank probation

It's laughable how below mediocre the franchise has been since coming back. Almost has to be intentional to be that good at being that bad for such a consistent time

Were Bob Johnson and then Michael Jordan not known to be very cheap owners? Didn’t MJ at least consistently put relatives and lackeys into office roles? Could this impact the regular disappointments?

The clippers sucked forever with Donald Sterling. Are they still the awful franchise they were? They aren’t champions or anything, but I think the impression of the franchise being a punchline has shifted over the years since the ownership situation improved.

And yet, despite all that, they still managed to make the playoffs 4x between 04 and when he left in 14, including three trips to the semis and two seasons of 50+ wins.


That's how inept Charlotte has been. Can't even measure up to the Sterling Clippers.


Now let's hope the new FO is doing things right, despite hiring all the buddies they worked with before, and they draft an eventual above average starter with the 5th pick..... Aren't we right back where we are right now? Hoping to get the #1 pick again, kicking the can down the road again, slow building, again, hoping by the time Melo's third contract rolls around we're looking at a competitive roster?

"Maybe next year"

[Walt Cronkite]

I guess some of my confusion lies here:
"things i would give them credit for:

players showing a dramatic increase in developmental pace ahead of league peers

luring high caliber impact players in free agency

fielding an expensive payroll in the name of competitiveness

making a difficult trade even when it the right thing to do

of course, they haven't had much opportunity yet to do these things. maybe they will. until they do, I'm going to judge them off their backgrounds and apply occams razor and assume the foreign hedge fundies are working in their own self interest and not Charlotteans."

I would credit the GM and his staff for those potential accomplishments, not ownership (payroll point excluded). You should definitely not be assuming any NBA owners are working against their own self-interest, which was a point I have been failing to make. I don't think much on court success can/should be attributed to the owners, so how is it relevant to the thread? After an eternity of hemming and hawing between winning and losing, we seem to be choosing to get off of the treadmill. I understand you don't want to credit anyone until the team has accomplished one of your acceptable achievements of progress, but I don't understand how you bring that around to ownership outside of hiring Peterson and cutting the checks that he requests.

[Walt Cronkite]

Building facilities on taxpayer dime on 10 dollar a year 100 year leases from the city and 0% interest league sourced credit is good for them. The current practice facility plans arent even some new ownership initiative, they were planning this stuff during covid, I'm pretty sure it first went public in 2022

Are there a lot of facilities that ultimately don't get majorly funded by the public? My Charlotte area relatives have complained about this for as long as I can remember and I'm approaching 40.

[Walt Cronkite]

Now let's hope the new FO is doing things right, despite hiring all the buddies they worked with before, and they draft an eventual above average starter with the 5th pick..... Aren't we right back where we are right now? Hoping to get the #1 pick again, kicking the can down the road again, slow building, again, hoping by the time Melo's third contract rolls around we're looking at a competitive roster?

"Maybe next year"

No arguments from me on how inept the franchise has been historically. I guess time will tell if the hires are on merit or not and I totally get the skepticism. Maybe it's a difference of team building philosophy. I strongly believe you take BPA always no matter what you have currently on the roster and make it coherent later via transactions. So it's not really shoot for the #1 pick, but keep the pick because it is better than getting experience with this roster of guys that won't mean much because a lot of them probably shouldn't be around for a playoff run.

The build doesn't have to be slow, but I mean, they clearly need to keep building because they keep losing games.

[yosemiteben]

Do you have any evidence for your conspiracy?

You are obviously more informed on Charlotte's owner's background dealings than I am. I just want to understand why the new owners are destined to do what you are saying they are destined to do. It's definitely from the MJ playbook, too, right, so I assume there is an explanation for why they haven't followed the MJ "business as usual" plan. Why build facilities if they don't need to? Why hire so many new people?

Building facilities on taxpayer dime on 10 dollar a year 100 year leases from the city and 0% interest league sourced credit is good for them.

Not that I think it'll effect your conspiracy hour takes here, but the facilities are definitely not just taxpayer paid. I'd look up the details but I don't think you actually care or that it would impact your narrative here. Correct me if I'm wrong and I'll pull them up.

[KembaWalker]

Building facilities on taxpayer dime on 10 dollar a year 100 year leases from the city and 0% interest league sourced credit is good for them. The current practice facility plans arent even some new ownership initiative, they were planning this stuff during covid, I'm pretty sure it first went public in 2022

Are there a lot of facilities that ultimately don't get majorly funded by the public? My Charlotte area relatives have complained about this for as long as I can remember and I'm approaching 40.

Ballmer fully funded the Clippers entire new arena. Ishbia is fully funding a new practice facility for the Suns. The Houston Rockets recently unveiled a new practice facility totally self funded by legendary cheapass Fertitta. Not too sure otherwise. I know the Spurs have a new practice facility with some tax payer funding but nothing to the insane degree these guys are asking from Charlotte.

[KembaWalker]

Do you have any evidence for your conspiracy?

You are obviously more informed on Charlotte's owner's background dealings than I am. I just want to understand why the new owners are destined to do what you are saying they are destined to do. It's definitely from the MJ playbook, too, right, so I assume there is an explanation for why they haven't followed the MJ "business as usual" plan. Why build facilities if they don't need to? Why hire so many new people?

Building facilities on taxpayer dime on 10 dollar a year 100 year leases from the city and 0% interest league sourced credit is good for them.

Not that I think it'll effect your conspiracy hour takes here, but the facilities are definitely not just taxpayer paid. I'd look up the details but I don't think you actually care or that it would impact your narrative here. Correct me if I'm wrong and I'll pull them up.

I didn't say they were, I said they get a ton of money from taxpayers, more than other teams have been getting for similar facilities by far, essentially free land from the city, and the rest they get at basically 0% interest through league financing. These guys aren't "writing a check" for the cost of these facilities. They're getting a check from the city and borrowing against the league, a league that literally cannot let them fold. Nobody is spending a dime. Its not really a conspiracy theory at all, thats how this stuff works. Why do you think a team like the Hornets can go up in value exponentially over the course of the Kemba Walker/Al Jefferson era. its a free money printer whether they win or not

[Walt Cronkite]

Maybe your animosity has a better target at the Charlotte City Council that approved the 30 million contribution from taxpayers instead of getting a deal like the people of LA, Houston or Phoenix got?

[KembaWalker]

Maybe your animosity has a better target at the Charlotte City Council that approved the 30 million contribution from taxpayers instead of getting a deal like the people of LA, Houston or Phoenix got?

i have no animosity toward anyone, I don't even live in Charlotte anymore. i just have learned enough over the years to see through the kind of BS this team is trying to get away with spewing, again.

getting a new practice facility doesnt get you anything special. half the teams in the league either have a new practice facility or have one in the pipeline. The Hornets have one of the last teams in the league to still roll with a 1 court practice facility. a new one doesn't give us some edge over everyone, it gets us to the baseline expectation of a professional basketball team. we literally have worse facilities right now than a large amount of NCAA teams. so yes, its good that we might not be that for a while, but we aren't gonna be passing guys up just because we're two decades behind finally catching up

[yosemiteben]

Building facilities on taxpayer dime on 10 dollar a year 100 year leases from the city and 0% interest league sourced credit is good for them.

Not that I think it'll effect your conspiracy hour takes here, but the facilities are definitely not just taxpayer paid. I'd look up the details but I don't think you actually care or that it would impact your narrative here. Correct me if I'm wrong and I'll pull them up.

I didn't say they were, I said they get a ton of money from taxpayers, more than other teams have been getting for similar facilities by far, essentially free land from the city, and the rest they get at basically 0% interest through league financing. These guys aren't "writing a check" for the cost of these facilities. They're getting a check from the city and borrowing against the league, a league that literally cannot let them fold. Nobody is spending a dime. Its not really a conspiracy theory at all, thats how this stuff works. Why do you think a team like the Hornets can go up in value exponentially over the course of the Kemba Walker/Al Jefferson era. its a free money printer whether they win or not

(1) You literally said building the facility on taxpayers dime as though the owners aren't paying. Taxpayers are paying $30M. This article says the price tag for new facilities is $70-90M (https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5965981/2024/12/05/nba-practice-facilities-arms-race/). So it's extremely likely the team is paying the majority of the cost.

(2) Either you don't know what exponential growth is or you don't know what the team sold for. The team did not go up in value exponentially.

[MasterIchiro]

The team can fund their end by extracting more money from fans at the ticket booth and concession stands, no?

Makes me think if the plan is to make fan experience more expensive, they have a plan to add wins, maybe trade for a marquee player using the draft cupboard after securing the 2025 Hornets lottery pick for the roster.

Braggins was thinking someone like Lauri. Who knows? That's for the trade thread.

But if you want fans to pay, you need to compete for the playoffs. So you need to make a big move. But it's not like there are no resources to do so.

[KembaWalker]

Not that I think it'll effect your conspiracy hour takes here, but the facilities are definitely not just taxpayer paid. I'd look up the details but I don't think you actually care or that it would impact your narrative here. Correct me if I'm wrong and I'll pull them up.

I didn't say they were, I said they get a ton of money from taxpayers, more than other teams have been getting for similar facilities by far, essentially free land from the city, and the rest they get at basically 0% interest through league financing. These guys aren't "writing a check" for the cost of these facilities. They're getting a check from the city and borrowing against the league, a league that literally cannot let them fold. Nobody is spending a dime. Its not really a conspiracy theory at all, thats how this stuff works. Why do you think a team like the Hornets can go up in value exponentially over the course of the Kemba Walker/Al Jefferson era. its a free money printer whether they win or not

(1) You literally said building the facility on taxpayers dime as though the owners aren't paying. Taxpayers are paying $30M. This article says the price tag for new facilities is $70-90M (https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5965981/2024/12/05/nba-practice-facilities-arms-race/). So it's extremely likely the team is paying the majority of the cost.

(2) Either you don't know what exponential growth is or you don't know what the team sold for. The team did not go up in value exponentially.

(1) you misunderstood , I literally described the terms the same way in this original post viewtopic.php?f=53&t=2424349&start=60#p116076538

they are funding it with low interest credit (themselves) and city money. i dunno, maybe you think the owners are over there cutting a check out of their Wells Fargo account for the amount and not using credit, i can assure you thats not how it works.
never once did i claim the facility was fully taxpayer funded.

(2) i dont know what the term for growing 10x in 10 years is if its not exponential, i havent been to college in over a decade. not really relevant anyway other than recognizing that the team is an absolute money printer despite having basically no fans and no success, because the system is built for that to happen

[SWedd523]

unrelated to the current kerfuffle but I absolutely hate thread titles like this. One of my biggest forum pet peeves


Back to the arguing about how billionaires **** down the fans while providing subpar products