What in the Hell Can the Nuggets Do?

[TheShow2021]

Why doesn't anybody ever mention AG as an issue? The offense would be even that much better if the 4 is in the corner (and a capable shooter) giving Jokic spacing, and also more space for cutters. The only reason the "free safety" defense was even effective is because when AG is in the dunker's spot, AG's man could effectively double Jokic without getting punished by AG.

Honestly, while it's clear Murray is by far the biggest problem on the team, I would argue that AG is even more of an issue than MPJ. MPJ is a perfect fit with the starting lineup, the problem is, you need your "2nd best" player to be able to be a 1st option when Jokic is on the bench. So because Murray and AG aren't allowed to be traded this year, the Nuggets are rushing to trade MPJ to do the job that Murray was supposed to do but has never been successful at.

So by this logic, the Nuggets should consider waiting till next year, to trade one or both of Murray and AG, to get someone who will not fail the team as Murray has so miserably at being a 1st option with Jokic on the bench.

[MarcusBrody]

Why doesn't anybody ever mention AG as an issue? The offense would be even that much better if the 4 is in the corner (and a capable shooter) giving Jokic spacing, also more space for cutters. The only reason the "free safety" defense was even effective is because when AG is in the dunker's spot, AG's man could effectively double Jokic without getting punished by AG.

Honestly, while it's clear Murray is by far the biggest problem on the team, I would argue that AG is even more of an issue than MPJ. MPJ is a perfect fit with the starting lineup, the problem is, you need your "2nd best" player to be able to be a 1st option when Jokic is on the bench. So because Murray and AG aren't allowed to be traded this year, the Nuggets are rushing to trade MPJ to do the job that Murray was supposed to do but has never been successful at.

So by this logic, the Nuggets should consider waiting till next year, to trade one or both of Murray and AG, to get someone who can not fail the team as Murray has at being a 1st option with Jokic on the bench.

I think that there is a lot of reasons:
1. Gordon is the Nuggets' most versatile defender and is asked to guard everyone from wings to centers. When the Nuggets go to their short rotation, he's actually their backup center, a position which they're already short on.
2. He's the best cutter on the team, so getting rid of him to create space for cutters would be two steps forward and one and a half back in that regard.
3. Relatedly, he's actually shooting much better this year. I doubt he keeps it up, but I'm sure the Nuggets hope. I always thought the effectiveness of sagging off Gordon's man was more an indictment of Malone than Gordon. The Nuggets really needed to have some counters to that, at least making Gordon hard to track.
4. He can't be traded this year (well not until after April). He just signed a contract extension, so he's not trade eligible at the moment, so no one really talks about him, whereas MPJ is eligible, so people scrutinize how much he's worth.

[TheShow2021]

I think that there is a lot of reasons:
1. Gordon is the Nuggets' most versatile defender and is asked to guard everyone from wings to centers. When the Nuggets go to their short rotation, he's actually their backup center, a position which they're already short on.
2. He's the best cutter on the team, so getting rid of him to create space for cutters would be two steps forward and one and a half back in that regard.
3. Relatedly, he's actually shooting much better this year. I doubt he keeps it up, but I'm sure the Nuggets hope. I always thought the effectiveness of sagging off Gordon's man was more an indictment of Malone than Gordon. The Nuggets really needed to have some counters to that, at least making Gordon hard to track.
4. He can't be traded this year (well not until after April). He just signed a contract extension, so he's not trade eligible at the moment, so no one really talks about him, whereas MPJ is eligible, so people scrutinize how much he's worth.

1. Not denying this, but I thought Peyton filled in pretty well, they didn't seem to lose much w/o Gordon while he was injured, and the offense seemed slightly better because Peyton was spacing more.

2. Agree, but I'm not sure it moves the needle much offensively, as spacing will have a much greater impact than Gordon's cutting ability.

3. I could only find a shot chart for AG for the last two seasons https://www.bball-index.com/shot-charts-lite/. he's shooting 50% from the right corner, and 30.6% from the left corner (it doesn't show how many attempts). If anyone has this data and for more seasons, would love to see it.

I also agree that Malone is a bad Xs and Os coach. He's a salesman not an analyst.

I think AG needs to be in the corner much more and he needs to be making >40% of these wide open 22 foot 3s.

[_NoMas]

Forget Lavine cooking the Celtics, MPJs insane defensive value and rotating to protect the rim whilst the trailblazers rack up the points is what Denver needs.

[Optms]

Nothing.

Their window closed the moment Murray regressed the way he did. For them to have any chance of being serious title contenders again, he has to return to form. Often times a team's window is determined not by their best player and superstar but their number two guy, as crazy as it sounds. We know what the number one guy is gonna do, get his points and make an impact etc but the consistency by the number two guy is the key.

The Nuggets extending Murray after having such an awful four month strength from the playoffs that carried into the olympics looks worse by the day.

This.

Especially for Denver. As a Lakers fan, I don't and never have feared Jokic. Its Murray who I didn't want to see. He was always the X factor.

It's weird wouldn't also fear Jokic as he gives AD the business when they match up.

Jokic wasn't stopping AD either. Murray would just cook with no resistance on the other end.

[DCasey91]

Goga Bitadze
Walker Kessler
Onyeka Okongwu
Larry Nance Jr
Robert Williams

Nuggets have zero excuses. For ffs get one of them sign them on for 3 years and pray that Murray is healthy come playoff time.

That's all it comes down to. MPJ is getting incrementally better and why is Gordon even getting brought up? He's been the second most consistent player on the team with players that lack urgency.

[BelgradeNugget]

Nuggets biggest issue this season is easily fixable. Big one becuse of problem it creates. And the problem is:

Julian Strawther

Now, look at this numbers - In 10 minutes vs Portland he was -17.
In 251 minutes with Jokic he is +11. In 310 minutes without Jokic he is -155.
All Nugets starters are in + in netrtg. Of rotation players Payton Watson is -0.7, Russ - 5.6, Strawther -13.2. Netrtg of -13.2 is Zake Nnaji territory. This big minus on Nuggets had backup bigs that don't play with Jokic, never players that play 50% of minutes with him.

His defrtg is 118.2 almost 4 pts worst than the next rotational player. You can make a case Watson and Russ are in - because of him.
Last season he had netrtg of -9.8. After injury he was replaced in rotation with Justin Holiday. Justin's netrtg was +3.7 for the same role. Last year Strawther was disaster on both ends of the floor. This season he is good on offense and terrible on defense.

How can Nuggets fix this. Cut Cancar, sign Justin Holiday.

In an interview at the start of the season Booth said he belives in young players and thinks they just need more minutes. It worked for Braun and Watson. Strawther improved on O but is still terrible on D. I think they will keep this course for some time before any adjustments. I think this is a reason why some vets play with 0 effort. If it is visible as fan, and from numbers how much Strawther is hurting team rn, imagine how it looks to them while playing.

One more thing. Me and 90% of fans here think Nuggets need better backup C. In 3 games Jokic missed this season score was 1-2, Dario Šarić had by far the best netrtg of all Nuggets players +11.4 in front of Murray with + 6.7 (Strawther had -22.3). Šarić's overal netrtg is really bad this season but he has the best defrtg of Nuggets rotation players. So maybe a little bit more of Šarić (pick and pop, no pick and roll), little less of Strawther and things could look better.

[BelgradeNugget]

I think that there is a lot of reasons:

3. Relatedly, he's actually shooting much better this year. I doubt he keeps it up, but I'm sure the Nuggets hope. I always thought the effectiveness of sagging off Gordon's man was more an indictment of Malone than Gordon. The Nuggets really needed to have some counters to that, at least making Gordon hard to track.
.

3. I could only find a shot chart for AG for the last two seasons https://www.bball-index.com/shot-charts-lite/. he's shooting 50% from the right corner, and 30.6% from the left corner (it doesn't show how many attempts). If anyone has this data and for more seasons, would love to see it.

Counter is easy and Warriors were using it for a long time when defenders sagg of off Green/Looney, and Pachulia/Bogut in the past. When a ball goes to non shooting big at the 3pt line he sets a screen for Curray/Klay for dribble handoff 3.
Maybe Malone will come to the same idea using Gordon at the 3pt line as screener for Murray/Porter when defenders sagg of off him to double Jokic.

[Ssj16]

This.

Especially for Denver. As a Lakers fan, I don't and never have feared Jokic. Its Murray who I didn't want to see. He was always the X factor.

It's weird wouldn't also fear Jokic as he gives AD the business when they match up.

Jokic wasn't stopping AD either. Murray would just cook with no resistance on the other end.

This makes no sense. Murray wasn't stopping anyone on his end either. Denver doesn't win those games without the dominance of both Jokic and Murray. You remove Jokic and Lakers most likely have another championship in the Lebron era.

Feels like a weird way to discredit Jokic owning the Lakers.

[Ssj16]

I feel like when you look at what some teams are doing around the league in the Clippers, Brooklyn (before losing Schroder), Orlando (with all their injuries), there is zero excuse for the Nuggets to lose or struggle with the bottom dwellers of the league.

More and more, im jumping on the "take a look at the coach" bandwagon.

[pepe1991]

They can split Porter into 2 even 3 actually good, defensive role players and have more balance. When they go to bench it's bunch of nothingness. Imo, Nuggets are too bad of a defensive team to be top tear contender, and Porter doesn't help.

[God Squad]

Chicken Nuggets

[cgf]

Goga Bitadze
Walker Kessler
Onyeka Okongwu
Larry Nance Jr
Robert Williams

Nuggets have zero excuses. For ffs get one of them sign them on for 3 years and pray that Murray is healthy come playoff time.

That's all it comes down to. MPJ is getting incrementally better and why is Gordon even getting brought up? He's been the second most consistent player on the team with players that lack urgency.

If picking up Bitadze or Kessler were that easy I'd feel a lot less anxiety about banking on Mitchell Robinson to stay healthy and wouldn't still be hoping for Kessler to start ruining Utah's tank so that Danny had to sell him to us for Dadiet + WSH FRP + Sims

[7seventynine9]

Forget Lavine cooking the Celtics, MPJs insane defensive value and rotating to protect the rim whilst the trailblazers rack up the points is what Denver needs.

Right. Maybe there's a better deal out there for Denver, but LaVine is a much better player than MPJ. He can create his own shot and is still just as efficient as MPJ. This is the only place I've ever heard anyone talk about Porter's defense and rebounding being a positive. Also not sure how LaVine would "kill" the Nuggets. He's not making that much more than MPJ. Lavine has 1+1 left on his contract, MPJ has 2 years. How does LaVine's contract hurt the team any more than MPJs?

Plus, if they flip MPJ for Lavine it doesn't mean they have to be done. They should be looking to get a decent big regardless. One who can help them on the glass and play some D. They lost last night due to all the offensive boards Portland gobbled up.

If it were possible, adding LaVine and Time Lord would be great. Even if Murray returns to form, having both LaVine and Murray isn't a problem offensively, and I'm not sure it's all that much worse than Murray/Porter on defense.

I like the Atlanta deal the most but I don't see any reason Atlanta would be looking to trade away Hunter who's been at another level this year. They should be looking to add talent to their young core. The Nets trade of Cam and DFS would be nice too. Either way, all three of those trades would require another trade or waiver pick up of a big with good defense or at least good rebounding. Hell, Andre Drummond would be an improvement at this point.

On a side not, Brandon Ingram contract matches up perfectly with MPJs. Not sure why NO would do it, though. I guess if they think MPJ and a pick or two is better than nothing. Ingram has considerly more length than LaVine and would probably be a better fit (at least on paper). Ingram+Theis might make some sense.

[ConSarnit]

Goga Bitadze
Walker Kessler
Onyeka Okongwu
Larry Nance Jr
Robert Williams

Nuggets have zero excuses. For ffs get one of them sign them on for 3 years and pray that Murray is healthy come playoff time.

That's all it comes down to. MPJ is getting incrementally better and why is Gordon even getting brought up? He's been the second most consistent player on the team with players that lack urgency.

If picking up Bitadze or Kessler were that easy I'd feel a lot less anxiety about banking on Mitchell Robinson to stay healthy and wouldn't still be hoping for Kessler to start ruining Utah's tank so that Danny had to sell him to us for Dadiet + WSH FRP + Sims

If the above guys were available for what DEN could offer they would have been snatched up already by another team. DEN has almost no assets to trade. All of their 1sts are tied up because of various protections and they have zero 2nd rounders. This doesn't even account for the fact that guys like Goga and Okongwu are key rotation pieces on playoff teams so why are ORL or ATL looking to trade them?

[Snake3]

Forget Lavine cooking the Celtics, MPJs insane defensive value and rotating to protect the rim whilst the trailblazers rack up the points is what Denver needs.

Right. Maybe there's a better deal out there for Denver, but LaVine is a much better player than MPJ. He can create his own shot and is still just as efficient as MPJ. This is the only place I've ever heard anyone talk about Porter's defense and rebounding being a positive. Also not sure how LaVine would "kill" the Nuggets. He's not making that much more than MPJ. Lavine has 1+1 left on his contract, MPJ has 2 years. How does LaVine's contract hurt the team any more than MPJs?

Plus, if they flip MPJ for Lavine it doesn't mean they have to be done. They should be looking to get a decent big regardless. One who can help them on the glass and play some D. They lost last night due to all the offensive boards Portland gobbled up.

If it were possible, adding LaVine and Time Lord would be great. Even if Murray returns to form, having both LaVine and Murray isn't a problem offensively, and I'm not sure it's all that much worse than Murray/Porter on defense.

There are a couple issues imo. Taking LaVine's contract will make getting quality role players even harder. While LaVine is better than MPJ and could create off the dribble, it seems like defense won't get any better and rebounding will suffer a little. While his shot creation might be worth it, I don't know if it's worth not having anymore room to get role players. And they would get smaller. The rotation will be weird too. I don't know if you start Lavine at the 2 and 3 it would Peyton Watson? Or give Murray/Braun/Lavine/AG/Jokic. That is smaller than what they usually have.

Their offense is fine. Their defense and bench aren't. And Lavine won't help with that. You could stagger him with the bench, but you are running with a 8 or potentially a 7 man rotation. That shouldn't be the case in the RS. As you said, if they do get LaVine it shouldn't be their only move. Another issue is, they potentially only have one tradable asset.

So, there are pros and cons to it. Pros, you get a shot creator, a better scorer. Cons, depth becomes thinner. Contract makes it harder to get role players. Defense at best is net 0 potentially. Less rebounds.

[Bergmaniac]

They need a freaking bench. You can't be a contender if you have to often play the 36 year old Westbrook over 30 MPG and DeAndre Jordan is the backup centre. Strawther is their only backup who can score efficiently and create for himself but he is a complete disaster on defence.

[mkot]

More and more, im jumping on the "take a look at the coach" bandwagon.

When there's limitation on the roster, he's going to try a lot of things to win games so I don't think it's fair to put everything on the coach without looking at the GM first. That said, I always have question on his sub patterns, Murray + bench (and most of the time with at least 2 non-shooters) for the non-Jokic minutes has been a disaster for years and he keeps doing it. He can't at least give him another starter/shooter say MPJ to at least give him more space to work the offense? Insane. And Murray hasn't been good until recently, AG is also dealing with some injury and hasn't been playing to his standard, so the fact that they are still above 500 is kinda a miracle to me.

Anyway I digress, I like most people said here believe changes are needed, but I hope to god that they don't panic trade away any of their starter. Murray's struggle is well known, but if you look at his numbers in October and November or first 20 games, 17ppg is on par with his career average. Now I do believe he is definitely battling but in the last 3 games he is averaging 24ppg 45/47/88 shooting splits and 6 assists and 2 steals, still a bit uneven in game but he is definitely trending up and looks more confidence in hunting for his shots. Aaron Gordon is still ramping up after dealing with some injuries early in the season, his numbers doesn't look too bad but if you look at his defensive advanced stats they are all down compare to his previous Nuggets years. He needs to play better and I think he is capable and he will. Jokic had put up a all-time stinker triple double vs the Kings and then another stinker 30+ points game vs the Blazers, I've watched him enough to know he will have nights like that he looks totally disinterested. That said his touches around the rim are a little off, his overall shooting % inside the arc is down from previous years too. He is shooting over double team more due to poor spacing and struggling from some of his teammates, so that's where the "get the man more help" comes from.

The problem though is not their starters, their bench has too many unplaying players.

Vlatko Cancar - he shouldn't even be resigned after looking horrible in the Olympic qualifier post ACL tear. I understand he is there for Jokic as they are close friends so fine.

Zeke Nnaji - disaster waiting to happen every time he steps on the court

Julian Strawther - consistently a negative player. Since Christian Braun is in the starting lineup to fill KCP's job he is their next guy up playing 20mpg

vs Blazers lost by 2 -17
vs Kings won by 1 -11
vs Hawks won by 30 -2
vs Lakers won by 25 -12
vs Heat won by 13 -12
vs Wolves lost by 3 -13

If you are a liability on defense, you can't be also a liability on offense but that's who he is. For a suppose shooter off the bench, he is too inconsistent. Right now the game is too fast for him, everything is rush. He does have a nice floater game he always rush that. Maybe he will figure it out but right now he is hot and cold and mostly cold, and getting hunted on defense.

I think playing him more than Watson is crazy, so that's on Malone.

Dario Saric - he is injured now but if he can't figure out and crack the rotation that's another dead weight on their bench.

DeAndre Jordan is getting minutes because of their entire frontcourt on the bench is either injured or unplayable. Jokic is playing career high 37mpg

They need to try package these guys for whatever and look into the FA market, find something, find someone that Malone can play. Forget about getting a backup C to play Jokic's role when he is off the court, find someone that can supplement Murray's 2nd unit for 10mpg for example. Get a high motor young athlete that plays hard on both ends, it's out there. Heck, re-sign Justin Holidays, he looks more playable than Julian Strawther right now.

They need moves on the margin, not a shake up

[Wallace_Wallace]

IMO, they need a shake up in the lineup. The rumors of a Lavine/MPJ swap could do that, and the possibility of that offense would be amazing since Lavine is a much more resilient scorer.

Bench wise, they may need to suck it up until the the buyout market opens up post the trade deadline. I don't know how much Bruce Brown wants to play meaningful basketball, but him leaving Toronto via a buyout to go back to the Nuggets makes a ton of sense. Same with vets like Malcolm Brodgon, Gary Harris, basically anyone who either a ball handler or a capable defender.

[Ssj16]

More and more, im jumping on the "take a look at the coach" bandwagon.

When there's limitation on the roster, he's going to try a lot of things to win games so I don't think it's fair to put everything on the coach without looking at the GM first. That said, I always have question on his sub patterns, Murray + bench (and most of the time with at least 2 non-shooters) for the non-Jokic minutes has been a disaster for years and he keeps doing it. He can't at least give him another starter/shooter say MPJ to at least give him more space to work the offense? Insane. And Murray hasn't been good until recently, AG is also dealing with some injury and hasn't been playing to his standard, so the fact that they are still above 500 is kinda a miracle to me.

Anyway I digress, I like most people said here believe changes are needed, but I hope to god that they don't panic trade away any of their starter. Murray's struggle is well known, but if you look at his numbers in October and November or first 20 games, 17ppg is on par with his career average. Now I do believe he is definitely battling but in the last 3 games he is averaging 24ppg 45/47/88 shooting splits and 6 assists and 2 steals, still a bit uneven in game but he is definitely trending up and looks more confidence in hunting for his shots. Aaron Gordon is still ramping up after dealing with some injuries early in the season, his numbers doesn't look too bad but if you look at his defensive advanced stats they are all down compare to his previous Nuggets years. He needs to play better and I think he is capable and he will. Jokic had put up a all-time stinker triple double vs the Kings and then another stinker 30+ points game vs the Blazers, I've watched him enough to know he will have nights like that he looks totally disinterested. That said his touches around the rim are a little off, his overall shooting % inside the arc is down from previous years too. He is shooting over double team more due to poor spacing and struggling from some of his teammates, so that's where the "get the man more help" comes from.

The problem though is not their starters, their bench has too many unplaying players.

Vlatko Cancar - he shouldn't even be resigned after looking horrible in the Olympic qualifier post ACL tear. I understand he is there for Jokic as they are close friends so fine.

Zeke Nnaji - disaster waiting to happen every time he steps on the court

Julian Strawther - consistently a negative player. Since Christian Braun is in the starting lineup to fill KCP's job he is their next guy up playing 20mpg

vs Blazers lost by 2 -17
vs Kings won by 1 -11
vs Hawks won by 30 -2
vs Lakers won by 25 -12
vs Heat won by 13 -12
vs Wolves lost by 3 -13

If you are a liability on defense, you can't be also a liability on offense but that's who he is. For a suppose shooter off the bench, he is too inconsistent. Right now the game is too fast for him, everything is rush. He does have a nice floater game he always rush that. Maybe he will figure it out but right now he is hot and cold and mostly cold, and getting hunted on defense.

I think playing him more than Watson is crazy, so that's on Malone.

Dario Saric - he is injured now but if he can't figure out and crack the rotation that's another dead weight on their bench.

DeAndre Jordan is getting minutes because of their entire frontcourt on the bench is either injured or unplayable. Jokic is playing career high 37mpg

They need to try package these guys for whatever and look into the FA market, find something, find someone that Malone can play. Forget about getting a backup C to play Jokic's role when he is off the court, find someone that can supplement Murray's 2nd unit for 10mpg for example. Get a high motor young athlete that plays hard on both ends, it's out there. Heck, re-sign Justin Holidays, he looks more playable than Julian Strawther right now.

They need moves on the margin, not a shake up

My big problem is that I still feel we are seeing other coaches maximize their roster with less talent.

I am not confident at all the Clippers or Orlando would be faring as well with Mike Malone as their coach.

I don't think he's a bad coach but I feel like he's hit a ceiling and he's not getting the most out of this team like how Spoestra squeezes out every last bit of talent on his teams.